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Propellor reference site

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Brett Buck · Jan 30, 2004 10:38 AM

#0 source
I have been having an off-line conversation with on of our stunt cohorts on teh topic of propellor pitch, and propellors in general. During that, the topic of good prop reference sites came up. I mentioned this previously, but it bears repitition. One of the most sophisticated web references on the topic I know of is on the Joe Supercool site:

http://www.supercoolprops.eftel.com/articles.htm

Very highly recommended if you want to really understand the "bleeding edge" of propellor, and so chock full of nuggets that hesitate to even recommend specific articles - they're all worth some of your time. However, this one is particular applicable:

http://www.supercoolprops.eftel.com/ARTICLES/article_4.htm

That's why you have to spin a 4" pitch Bolly 1500 rpm faster than a 4" pitch Eather UCT to get the same speed. Just an example.

Brett

wyrflyr · Jan 30, 2004 12:58 PM

edited#1 source
Brett,

This is too much like rocket science for someone who finished high school (barely) over 40 yrs. ago.
Can you just tell me what APC prop to use on a Saito 40 4S, 54 oz, with 630 square inch wing? That would be very helpful.

Thanks,
Jerry

P.S. It would save me a lot of trial and error. Especially the error part.

Brett Buck · Jan 30, 2004 01:10 PM

#2 source
>Brett,
>
>This is too much like rocket science for someone who
>finished high school (barely) over 40 yrs. ago. Can you just
>tell me what APC prop to use on a Saito 40 4S, 54 oz, with
>630 square inch wing?
>
>Jerry

Whatever other people are using?

Seriously, trial and error is still a huge part. The reason I look at sites like this, or work in this area, is so that I might start getting an idea *why* the prop determined via trial and error happens to work better than the others.

Brett

wyrflyr · Jan 30, 2004 01:14 PM

#3 source

> Whatever other people are using?
>
> Seriously, trial and error is still a huge part. The
>reason I look at sites like this, or work in this area, is
>so that I might start getting an idea *why* the prop
>determined via trial and error happens to work better than
>the others.
>
> Brett

Brett,

Guess we were thinking along the same lines, I was updating my original message while you were typing yours.

Jerry

John Sunderland · Jan 31, 2004 08:37 AM

#8 source
>>Brett,
>>
>>This is too much like rocket science for someone who
>>finished high school (barely) over 40 yrs. ago. Can you just
>>tell me what APC prop to use on a Saito 40 4S, 54 oz, with
>>630 square inch wing?
>>
>>Jerry
>
> Whatever other people are using?
>
> Seriously, trial and error is still a huge part. The
>reason I look at sites like this, or work in this area, is
>so that I might start getting an idea *why* the prop
>determined via trial and error happens to work better than
>the others.
>
> Brett

I am with Brett.One of the reasons I wait around for awhile before jumping on the " New motor" bandwagon is to let somebody else work out the bugs. A few years back I spent several summers trying to milk a 40 FP for all it could produce buying over 30 different props. In the long run I wound up with a 12/5 Zinger cut back to 11, slightly repitched and balanced of course.

The really nice thing about CF props is that you can adjust pitch quite easily, they are stiff and efficient and usually quite well balanced stock. One CF prop was as cheap as the other 29 props I bought that sat around collecting dust under my bench for the next couple years.

John


Mike Alimov · Jan 30, 2004 04:43 PM

#4 source
Yep, also shows that the conventional pitch gauge doesn't really give you the true pitch. Only good for comparing one blade to another (of the same prop)...

Brett Buck · Jan 30, 2004 05:12 PM

#5 source
>Yep, also shows that the conventional pitch gauge doesn't
>really give you the true pitch. Only good for comparing one
>blade to another (of the same prop)...

Well, I wouldn't go that far - it tells you something you need, just not the only thing.

Brett

Howard Rush · Jan 30, 2004 07:01 PM

#6 source
It tells you something you can measure.

Igor Burger · Jan 31, 2004 05:11 AM

#7 source
Really nice site, but does not say anything about pitch distribution. Did anyone do or see a reserch about pitch distribution on prop diameter and its effect to our models?

igor

Brett Buck · Jan 31, 2004 01:46 PM

#11 source
>Really nice site, but does not say anything about pitch
>distribution. Did anyone do or see a reserch about pitch
>distribution on prop diameter and its effect to our models?
>

It does not. I think we will have to come up with that ourselves. This is where the real value of comparing observations from experienced and competent stunt pilots, and theory, will come together. We have a lot of experience with the effects of pitch distribution, but that was mostly cut-and-try. I think we can at least begin to explain it now.

Brett

Igor Burger · Feb 09, 2004 01:42 PM

#13 source
I did some attempts to model such a situation but I have too little theoretical knowledge about prop propulsion. Some years ago when I first time saw Beringer’s props with downgrading pitch till blade tip, I asked myself if the explanation that the low pitch brakes downhill could be true. It did not convince me. So I did very simple model of equivalent “rotating wing”, to see what the effect of pitch distribution on speed stability is. Or by other word what is happening with the thrust by speed variation depending on pitch distribution. I see it as follows:

If the prop airfoil is in linear segment of lift/alpha slope on whole blade and if prop rotates at constant rpm (load does not change rpm what means the drag and induced drag on tip has no effect) then I think the pitch distribution has no effect. It is because if a prop has no thrust at speed X and we slow down by 10%, then the AoA on whole blade get the same AoA difference of whole blade does not matter what is pitch distribution – that gives the same lift difference because the lift is linear to AoA by cy=.11 per deg. Does not matter if the effective pitch at original speed was in + or – values. It means three props – with constant pitch over all, increasing to the tip or decreasing to the tip – will have the same thrust response. The same is for prop with different pitch on blades.

But we have prop blade drag variation, prop rpm variation and limited power on shaft and limited lift on tip thanx vortex at tip.

So I did a model which allows to make some specified pitch distribution of constant chord blade with constant airfoil integrating the thrust and drag data plus some estimated induced drag and effective pitch reduction from tip vortex. It does not make whole picture, and that is what I am asking for here. Because I am not sure how far I can believe results.

However, such limited model was able to show some effects. I saw that if the engine has limited power or loses rpm under load, then lowered tip pitch can improve thrust response to speed lowering, while constant pitch is superior for constant rpm engine. The trick is in tip vortex and in airfoil drag at negative AoA if the prop is unloaded. The effect of low tip pitch prop is not its “braking of forward motion”, it brakes rotating. The opposite happen if you load it, the tip gets to zero AoA and has only low drag what allows shaft unloading and thus higher rpm. The effect is very similar to undercambered airfoil.

So in my eyes, the low pitch at tip is good for engines without very good self-regulation, while those with constant (or even progressive) pitch distribution will be for those strong constant rpm (or even 4-2-4 accelerating) engines.

But as I say I would like to see some full analytic model or better real measured data on “some” engine.

But practically I did not do any further tests since I got my favorite BE 12x3.5 UCT

igor

Tim McTigue · Jan 31, 2004 08:59 AM

#9 source
"...However, this one is particular applicable:

http://www.supercoolprops.eftel.com/ARTICLES/article_4.htm

That's why you have to spin a 4" pitch Bolly 1500 rpm faster than a 4" pitch Eather UCT to get the same speed. Just an example.

Brett"

Whoa... I was "sort of" following it up until he started on "Experimental Pitch", and he completely lost me at the end. Which type of pitch are you measuring if you use the laser-beam method in the recent Stunt News article?


Brett Buck · Jan 31, 2004 01:42 PM

#10 source
>"...However, this one is particular applicable:
>
>http://www.supercoolprops.eftel.com/ARTICLES/article_4.htm
>
>That's why you have to spin a 4" pitch Bolly 1500 rpm faster
>than a 4" pitch Eather UCT to get the same speed. Just an
>example.
>
>Brett"

>
>Whoa... I was "sort of" following it up until he started on
>"Experimental Pitch", and he completely lost me at the end.
>Which type of pitch are you measuring if you use the
>laser-beam method in the recent Stunt News article?

A sort of geometric pitch, or "back-of-the-blade" angle. For flat-back props, it's just exactly the same as what you get using a pitch gauge.

The term "experimental pitch" is maybe not obvious unless you read the rest of the articles. But think of it like this - you get a propellor spinning at some fixed RPM, then blow air at it in a wind tunnel until it's putting out exactly 0 thrust. Then divide the air velocity by the RPM, and you get the "experimental" or "true" or whatever you want to call it, pitch - the advance rate at which it travels at 0 slip.

With cambered airfoils, I think the "experimental pitch" (I had called it "effective pitch" in the past), this is always *higher* than the measured or geometric pitch. Right off the bat, you can explain one rather puzzling phenomena - airplanes going faster than they are "supposed to be". Take a situation such as this: I have a 11.5-3.7" *measured* pitch prop with a lot of undercamber (Eather UCT "red"). The airplane is timed in flight going 78 fps, and through the "sync method" I know that the engine is turning 10800 rpm in flight. 3.7" = .3083 feet, and 10800 rpm = 180 rev/second. .3083*180 = 55.5 fps - or WAY slower than the observed speed. It's like the prop is travelling further forward per rev (higher pitch) than it's supposed to be.

In reality, you know that it's probably only travelling forward about 75% of the *real *pitch because you know it slips some (in fact, if it doesn't there's no thrust). So, in fact, the "experiemental" or "effective" pitch is in the range of maybe 7". But how can that be? Well, that little equation about halfway down the page tells how much angle you have between the chord line (which is what you measure) and the "zero-lift-line" where the airfoil actually does produce no lift (and is exactly equivalent to the "zero-thrust" condition in the second paragraph above). It's a function (to a first approximation) of camber and high point of the airfoil. Well, I sacrificed a 12-3.75 UCT prop and cut it into slices along the length so that I could scan it in and figure out the camber and high point from an actual prop. I then figured out the relation of the "zero-lift-line" to the geometric pitch angle. It amounts to a "correction angle" at each station. Then I put it into an spreadsheet that did all the calculations for me, and this is what I got:

Brian Eather 12-3.75 UCT "red" , 3.700 pitch measured using calibrated Prather gauge

r....true pitch....zero-lift angle
1.0...5.6920........11.68079884
1.5...5.2297.........7.59146369
2.0...5.3229.........6.55022171
2.5...5.6812.........6.629379469
3.0...6.3689.........7.563645591
3.5...6.9391.........7.961950581
4.0...7.289..........7.71402829
4.5...7.7332.........7.841299863
5.0...8.1085.........7.755171075
5.5...8.8681.........8.28137634
6.0...8.4587.........7.040886411

where r = radius in inches, true pitch = the pitch as determined by the "correction angle" method described above and on the Joe Sueprcool site, and zero-lift angle = correction angle as computed using the high point and camber. Lo and behold, the "effective pitch" is around 7" - just like you might guess from the observed results!

When I did this, it was sort of a Eureka! moment, as it explains a lot of what we have been observing over the years. A Bolly, for instance, has a different airfoil with a lot less camber, and thus it's somewhat closer to what you measure - or alternately, if you want your Bolly to perform more like an Eather, or your Eather to perfrom more like your Bolly, you have to set the pitch to something quite different. Then, and only then, can you begin to understand ANYTHING about the effects of the airfoil shape, L/D, etc. If you don't correct it, then the difference in effective pitch washes out the much smaller effects.

Note that this also explains a lot about why you just can't take a PA61 set up for a Bolly, and just slap on an equivalent Eather, and expect it to work very well, or vice versa. Most of the talk about "efficiency" or "load" of one prop vs. another is a function of the "effective pitch" instead of any intrinsic characteristic of the prop. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a prop with 7" of effective pitch might produce more "load" than one with 5.5" of effective pitch.

I would also add that this just begins to open the floodgates of a whole lot of other questions.

Brett

Ion Muniz · Feb 09, 2004 06:04 AM

#12 source
Nice site, Brett!

I bookmarked it!

Thanks!

Ion