Open appology.....

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"It rubs the lotion on its skin,
it does this whenever it's told.."
-Buffalo Bill, in "Silence of the Lambs"

After all they are just toy planes on the end of a string! (That should offend someone!)

Your tag line really bugs me.. Put the darm 'M' in it

Hey. I'll own up - it was me - I pointed out that I didn't particularly care for the "*rockeet scientist*" part of Bill's .SIG file. Particularly after his sarcastic comments about no one responding to his random musings for *4 whole hours*. This thread just makes it more annoying, frankly.

Tom;)

Insert the famous line from Gone with the Wind here:

Your arrogance on this matter, and many others it much MORE annoying.
I do not personally know you, having only talked to you breifly at the NATS one year. Where you get the idea that you can openly call someone a liar (that's what you have done in the past) and have a condesending attitude towards others that you feel may not be of your intellegence level, it's lost on me. (mainly because I SERIOUSLY doubt that it is significantly higher than mine, if ANY) If this whole thread annoys you, see a therapist.

I did what I felt was right and inthe way I felt was right. You chose to have an eliteist attitude and that is your problem.

Now, I am done with this, and if you choose to "take your ball and go home" when it comes to answering any posts I might write, that is your decision.

Regards,
Bill <><

If I don't respond to you on a second-by-second basis, I'm an elitist? If I post something, should I expect everyone to immediately answer no matter what else they are doing? 4 hours is too long? I've answered most if not all of your questions that I thought I might have a useful input to. But you're mad and making sarcastic comments because I didn't answer fast enough?

What actually annoyed and annoys me about this (and I am annoyed, not mad) is that you are creating and propogating EXACTLY the very us/them thing that you claim to dislike. In fact, you assume it's the case and post accordingly. That's what frustrates me - you didn't get an immediate answer, so you INSTANTLY assumed it was because you were "blackballed", "not interesting", etc. by the "elitists" like people could respond but just didn't want to because it was you.

Nothing could be further from the truth - in fact, I have been working very hard to get a vitally important work project done, and simply didn't have the time to get to it, nor did I really understand what you were asking - since you really didn't ask anything specific.

If you want to push a button, start talking about "elitists" - this idea of the "hot shots vs. the little guy" is just such an amazing load of cr*p that I find it hard to imagine. Everybody, myself included, has a place to talk directly as if they were standing next to guys like Al Rabe, Paul Walker, Ted Fancher (theres 13 Walker Trophys right there) and will usually get an answer. How much more egalitarian could it possibly get, and what more do you expect? "Elitists", if there were any, wouldn't bother to even participate..

I try to help where I can, when I have the time to. I make it a priority, and it's a point of pride that I try. But I don't feel it to be my duty to answer every question that might come up, and I'm certainly not obligated to. Nor is anyone else. Why should I get beat up over it?

I am dumbfounded by this whole situation.

Please read this. You, again, were NOT the sole purpose of my "sarcasm" in my somewhat ill advised original post. I did witness many replies from others, and from you, to other posts, and said so earlier. I have thanked you for your input, and do hold a value to what you say. But I do have experience in mechanical areas, soldering, welding, etc., being a few.

>But you're mad and making sarcastic comments because I
>didn't answer fast enough?

Mad, well I guess you don't get out much, 'cause I ain't really "mad". Nor angered. If I were, I would not have apologised.
I, also, would not be so nice. And if you don't think I am being "nice", you really haven't been out much, I really don't like myself when I am truly mad..........
"Sarcasm"????? Not in this case. Nope, just truth.

> What actually annoyed and annoys me about this (and I am
>annoyed, not mad) is that you are creating and propogating
>EXACTLY the very us/them thing that you claim to dislike.
>In fact, you assume it's the case and post accordingly. That's
>what frustrates me - you didn't get an immediate answer, so
>you INSTANTLY assumed it was because you were "blackballed",
>"not interesting", etc.

Yep. You're right. My humor WAS lost on some, no?

> by the "elitists" like people could
>respond but just didn't want to because it was you.

Ok, see above...... replies were made during the time, and if there where NO ideas about ANY of the my post it shows that there is very limited number of topics of interest. No biggie.... but I will never buy that. It simply was not a topic that WAS interesting to any who could give a thought to it. Humor wasn't conveyed well there, either.

> Nothing could be further from the truth - in fact, I have
>been working very hard to get a vitally important work
>project done, and simply didn't have the time to get to it,
>nor did I really understand what you were asking - since you
>really didn't ask anything specific.

I asked for "ideas", they have seemed very prevalent since I have been visiting here. I wasn't asking for a pecan pie recipe. And request for ideas about potential projects have been made here too numerous times to count.

> If you want to push a button, start talking about
>"elitists" - this idea of the "hot shots vs. the little guy"
>is just such an amazing load of cr*p that I find it hard to
>imagine. Everybody, myself included, has a place to talk
>directly as if they were standing next to guys like Al Rabe,
>Paul Walker, Ted Fancher (theres 13 Walker Trophys right
>there) and will usually get an answer.

I know Ted, in a small way. Even launched some practice flights at the '96 NATS for him. Shared some Rolling Rocks with Paul in '93 after his "rain dance". Have never met Al, but I would like to.
I also know a few other VERY knowledgeable flyers pretty well that you failed to mention. They have quite a few Walker Trophies, and several Walker Cups. They live more in this direction. But they are pretty fair fliers. AS an example, I have never talked to nicer guys than Bob Gieseke, Bob Gialdini, Jim Silhavy, Bob Palmer, or the late George Aldrich. Not to mention a couple more "Bobs", a couple "Bills" and even a "Randy". None of which have I ever seen talk down to anyone.

>How much more egalitarian could it possibly get, and what more do >you expect? "Elitists", if there were any, wouldn't bother to
>even participate..

Oh my dear Brett..... there ARE Elitists here. There are many with huge egos. I know, I have seen them. I am been around large egos for most of my life and can accept them. I never met a great athlete who didn't have one. None, zilch, zero. Not Michael Jordan or Lawrence Taylor (spent an a couple evenings with them), Arnold Palmer (whose staff I was on close to 30 years ago, he even gave me one of his personal clubs out of his bag), Cale Yarborough, Benny Parsons, and a host of other NASCAR drivers, and many, many more players I played with, or coached, who became Professional athletes. I missed the NFL because of a failed physical in training camp, had too many surguries. No regrets. I know egos.
The PA "sport" is full of these "athletes" and their egos, and it isn't a bad thing in itself. I wouldn't expect it any other way. If you don't believe in yourself, who will?

The term "eliteist" I used in a reply to you. You have now made it appear that I used it as a blanket term. How not true. But, in truth, they are here, without a doubt. Witness some replies that appear.

>I try to help where I can, when I have the time to. I
>make it a priority, and it's a point of pride that I try.
>But I don't feel it to be my duty to answer
>every question that might come up, and I'm certainly not
>obligated to. Nor is anyone else. Why should I get beat up
>over it?

I have said, and meant, that I appreciate your opinions.
It bothers ME that you keep bringing up words like "duty" and "obligation". Again, I said before that when you establish yourself as an expert on any matter, which, maybe without you own knowledge, you have by your methods of answering questions. You pretty much "tell" that yours is the only way, and this does bring about a sense of expectation in many that you will be expected to give your opinion. I responded to the manner in which you responded to me. You were antagonistic, by choice or otherwise, and I said my piece. I have not elicited any of the other responses, nor would I. I can speak for myself. As Dan said, sarcastically or not, I have found this all very amusing. That you cannot understand the obvious start of this all, which was really nothing more than poor humor, on my part has me dumbfounded. But there is always some truth in humor.

> I am dumbfounded by this whole situation.

> Brett

Your response to me triggered it. I probably took it wrong, but there is a ton of truth in what I have written here. If you can't see it, I am sorry. We do NOT live in Utopia, and all are not Knights in Shining Armor. Nor would I want them to be. Human is just fine.

Truce. If we ever meet again, face to face, I would like to buy you dinner.

I would like to drop this as I said before. Nothing is being gained, and I have apologised for offending you. What anyone else says is not of my doing.

Regards,
Bill <><

I appreciate you clearing it up, and for understanding. I've been moderately thick-skinned, but the "elitist" thing really, genuinely, hurts my feelings. More so as this has been a key feature of cheap-shots taken an PAMPA officials (me included) over the years, and I think, quite unfairly.

There are probably elitists in this hobby - but I just haven't run into many of them. Almost by definition, they aren't here, because merely participating in a online forum requires you to participate vice floating above it all. Not that others that don't come here *are* - but that if you are here, it pretty much precludes elitism.

It's over with for my part - I think you see my point now, and I see yours. Apology accepted.

Next topic...

Good idea, let's put it to rest.

Shake hands, next topic.

Builder of the model, anybody? (no, please don't)

Bill, Brett's a nice guy, and he always helped me without making me feel patronized.

Just cool down and do'n worry about the mule..etc.

Floyd (Rocket Scientist, retired)

Ion (Racket Scientist, retired) Muniz

From Stunt1
You know I agree with some , but not all, you guys ought to get a life. This hobby is supposed to be fun and yet it's guys like you Brett with so many ##### opinions who ruin it for all the guys who want to have fun, and you want to take all the fun out of it. You ought to move out east and I'll teach you how to loosen up and have fun. WE laugh a lot out here when we fly and we all have some pretty funny opinions of ourselves.
Let me tell you now Bill you didn't need to aplologise for anything. Love and kisses from Mr. 69 NATS

Bob Lampione

PS: If you'd like to call me Brett, I'll tell you this to your face too, or in this case your own ears. Like the man said there just toy airplanes on the end of a set of lines. Sometimes you just have to many opinions and maybe others are afraid to tell you that maybe you should keep them to yourself.
Believe me, I've been there and done it all, so I can and do have a right to open my mouth. A former NATS and Walker Trophy winner.

Please keep those opinions coming. Otherwise this forum has no content.

There is a huge difference between Bill and Floyd. Bill is a gentleman and I personally value his friendship as well as his sense of humor. Bill will give you the shirt off of back. He and his son Aaron are a credit to the sport. Floyd was openly atagonistic and went out of his way to attack those who could not defend themselves, ie, George Aldrich. Need I remind you that Floyd personally blamed George for ruining CL aviation by inventing the Precision Stunt pattern and making stunt flying competitive. A terrible thing to do to paraphrase Floyd. So, do not try or attempt to make what is happening here an equivalent to the discipline that Floyd received.

Just an angry old redneck.

While all of this is rather amusing, if you think you are being misunderstood to the point of having to make apologies, my advice is to substantially augment your communications skills.

As to Brett, I do thank you for highlighting what I did not know was a chink in his armor. Henceforth I will quit using "Yo' mama..." statements toward Brett, switching to "You trash-talking rockeet scientists..." and we will see how that goes.

I will tell you that I did notice your post, and a certain amount of impatience on your part, on what to me is a misguided adventure, that of creating a Midget Impact. I could have made up all sorts of responses, but as I have no real idea of what you are trying to achieve, or even why, have never even heard of a shrunk Impact, there was little to contribute. Other than "Don't do it!"

I suspect others felt the same way, as in there simply is no database for such a thing. If you're going well off the res anyway, maybe some of us have no reason to follow.

Well, If you'se gonnna turn loose of Yo momma I'ze gonnna use it, if'n it's ok with you.

Not that I'd be throwin it in Brett's face, just round the house and all that.

My only complaint with Bill's sig line is it's just too large for me to read.

life it too short to be petty.....

I might go fly a ***rockeet*** now

Dee, did it ever occur to you that this goes both ways?

I certainly don't appreciate being called an elitist by implication or directly. You might think that's all right because I am an alleged "big hot shot", but I have feelings too and that's my perspective.

Other people have feelings too. Perhaps you should consider what some of your posts on this board mean when other people read them.

I'll try to make you feel better Brett...I don't think you're a "big hot shot".

I guess that Brett thought that you were unfairly targeting him for
some kind of intentional slur. Like many people have said, sometimes what you type just doesn't get across the intent of the words. I know there are quite a few other people on this board that make their
living's in the space, satellite and rocket industry, myself being one of them. I consider you to be a good friend and one that would do anything for someone. I know that there was nothing intentional intended except for good hearted humor. I think that this hobby is not so serious that you can't have fun and even laugh at yourself from time to time. And, that's just how I was taking you signature statement as a humorous dig at yourself and not intended for anyone else. Unfortunately, over printed meadia like this forum sometimes the best of intentions can be misunderstood and I think that may have been the case?

Humor is such a fragile thing, what's funny to one person can be a serious slur to another. Oh well, sorry to have rambled so long.
If you would like to add this to your signature line feel free to do so "and you too - Jim Pollock - You non scientific *rockeet* person"

BTW I do work every day with about 35 real rocket scientist and engineers and they do teach me a lot!

Jim Pollock "The smiley face code master"

I don't know Bill Little, but I am sure he is a gentleman, and I'll bet that I would really like him if we ever met. While I also don't know Floyd Cummins, I do know that he had strong opinions that were often at odds with many on this forum, but that does not make him a bad man. He is just a contrary old man who hurt nobody here, but was piled on by a whole lot of you. He was about the funniest guy to ever be a member of this forum, and I miss him. I'll bet I am not the only one!

Bill

Millions of Americans were recently scarred for life by a 2-second exposure of a (semi-)naked human breast! In less than 24 hours, our illustrious Government had launched an investigation into it! The response was more rapid than to 9/11.

Fortunately, I have my duct tape and plastic all ready this time.

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"I do not like this word 'bomb'. It is not a bomb; it is a device which is exploding." -Jacques Le Blanc, French ambassador to New Zealand, describing France's nuclear testing, 1995

I also know that he has a pretty good sense of humor and that he contributes an awful lot to PAMPA and to the Stunt event in general.

The biggest fault that I find with the Brettster is that he hasn't published plans for his airplane.

See Ya

(Well, there was that business of California Dreamin'.. But the truly tedious part was Unsanitary Dan tellin me "you don't know that much, Cunningham!". I think Brett was off somewhere running a simulation on his Mac or something.)

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"It is absurd to divide people into good and bad. People are either charming or tedious." Oscar Wilde in "Lady Windermere's Fan."

But I didn't know Brett was a Rocket Dude, sounds really cool. I always like to hear what people do outside of airplanes...

Well, SOMEONE's got to do it! (They don't ALL get to do fun stuff like I do..)

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"I was in a job interview and I opened a book and started reading. Then I said to the guy, "Let me ask you a question. If you are in a spaceship that is traveling at the speed of light, and you turn on the headlights, does anything happen?" He said, "I don't know." I said, "I don't want your job." -Steven Wright

Wish I still had a copy of that ramble, took me quite a bit to write as I am, well, not gifted in those areas but was doing 3 newsletters at the time. The more important thing was that it was actually funny enough I couldn't believe I spewed it. I really think it was a compilation of many things I had read on the Cub with an opening line from a TV show focused on Boat maintenance. The opening line, directly lifted from TV was, 'There are Two great days in the Cub owners life. The day he brings his Cub home, and the day he finally gets rid of the blankity blank thing.' Substitute Cub for boat of course.
It also corresponded to the day I got rid of said airplane that was both overpowered, overweight, overtroblesome, oversloppy in controls and well, just a Cub man!

Bout got me banned from the then RCOnline, and I was a moderator at the time. For some reason it didn't stop me from buying the next one either.

Ahh ta heck with it. I never once thought Bill was talking about Brett who is a heck of a guy but the world does not orbit around, and I think this whole thing is probably a big waste of webspace. But, it's fairly cheap.

Love you Bill for your flavor, Love you Brett for the cold hard facts. And of course EVERYBODY loves DAN, cuzz, well, you know..

Because he doesn't care if you love him. Or even like him. Even a little.

Because we ALL love small, helpless (furry) things..

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"I've got my mind right, Boss. I've got my mind right.." -Lucas Jackson in "Cool Hand Luke"

You have sharp wit's, I wanna die as a friend of yours.

> Because he doesn't care if you love him. Or even like him. Even a little.

Preston>

True enough. As Brett might well say, and has recently written, something about a well-formed ego.

At least I'm honest about it...

Look, folks, Brett Buck technically is not a rocket scientist.

He merely evaluates the work product of rocket scientists. So there!

As to other issues, it is true that Brett is very direct. That is a big positive on my end. Others see this as a negative. As I don't see any chance whatsoever of Brett changing his approach, those who would like to learn from him might do as I once advised a neighbor, "Ya know, some of my friends like to cut their Prozac pills in half."

Dan

J

This time we let you get away with it, but next time you'll be tarred and feathererd...

Ion (you never offended me) Muniz

My point? We need Brett. His viewpoints, experience and contributions are valuable to this forum. I, for one, would hate to see Brett discouraged by this unnecessary debate.

I agree. Brett is a very bright and talented guy- we need all the knowledge we can absorb to keep growing.
I still think he should use "The Rocketeer" logo on his planes though.

J

Right on, AL!

BTW, we need Al too...

GBY!

J

Jake

We were talking about you just a few days ago. I think some poor misguided soul indicated he misses you. Wasn't me.

I know who the culprit was. I don't believe that the question was not asked here It was asked at another forum. Do you actually get there, too?

Please note that "apology" is spelled correctly in the subject line above.

And just for you, no smileys.

OS

DD,

C'mon. play nice!

I thought he was!

Jake

Hey Dan, what it is?
Oh well, can't please everybody!

Jake

OK, I'll bite. The thing that makes a rocket go up is the conservation of linear momentum. And that concept is buried in, or implied by, the answer the Germans gave. The rocket goes "up" (or whatever direction it goes) to conserve linear momentum with its exhaust. Zero linear momentum in the center of mass frame before the engine fires, zero while it is firing. Only way to achieve the latter is for the rocket to move in the direction opposite that of the exhaust velocity vector, so that the vector sum of its momentum and that of the mass ejected in the exhaust remains zero.

Andy (card carrying professional physics person) Tomasch