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Lifting body Stunter and history on lift

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rsmiley · Feb 10, 2004 03:00 PM

#0 source
I have read with interest the threads on High Aspect Ratio with its assocaited limitations; the thread on "How Much and What Size" by Alphadawg and have talked with Bob Whitely on this WRT the Hyperbipe as a suitable subject for 40-46 power. Going to Mr Google in a search I found the following site:

www.aircrash.org/burnelli/n23b.htm

Very interesting revelation, a Mr. Burnelli designed lifting body aircraft and had a jet configuration with a twin boom and lifting body that is remarkably similar to our present day fighter jets. The information describes capability of the lifting body planforms as being quite superior, more efficient, in terms of weight, gross weight capacity, volume, power efficiency drag etc. which leads me to believe that a lifting body type or composite stunter might be quite successful in both calm and windy situations. Most of the mass is central, most of the lift is central thus reducing the effects of wind since the moment components of wind forces are reduced. There is discusssion that there was a policy conspiracy to shut out Burnelli and his concepts from the military complex and that Boeing was favored for other designs. I pass no judgement on that matter but find very interesting the argument posed and statistics presented that make this concept of high interest for a possible stunt machine.

The hyperbipe fits the bill and apparantly several other heretofore flying machines may also be in the running.

Have any of you out there in the model world come across this or similar information before and have it strike your fancy?

I am not proposing a flying wing configuration with its attendant limitations on takeoff and short moments etc. but rather a hyprid form like the hyperbipe and or a bomber or cargo carrier type planform with short wings concentrating the major mass of lifting in the central third (or other suitable ratio) of the span.

Any comments on real or theoretical flying craft would be appreciated. Also any sources of historical interest and what has been done before would also be appreciated.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler.

Bob

dirtydan · Feb 10, 2004 03:24 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#1 source
Bob,

I once witnessed you being easily coerced into trying a prop which was completely different from the piece used in practice. While we were flying in a contest.

Thus it is that you must be cautioned: Whitely is crazy. It's okay to look over his shoulder now and then, but once you get a real good peek at his latest nut-ball design, the only appropriate thing to do is the opposite of whatever Bob is doing.

Unless he reads this post in which case my advice is itself 180 degrees off.

This is going to get real complicated, real quick. Stay away from Whitely, he's probably pretty tired of hearing about your Piper Cub anyway...

Dan

rsmiley · Feb 10, 2004 03:36 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#3 source
I am just a nice guy Dan trying to expore the history of aviation and have fun modeling. I will just pretend I did not read your post and then proceed to whip your socks off at the next contest in Classic.

With the help of my friends here in Tucson including Bob Whitely and a good flying model; that should be achieveable this year. Are you up to the challenge?

Bob

dirtydan · Feb 10, 2004 03:50 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#5 source
>I am just a nice guy Dan trying to expore the history of
>aviation and have fun modeling. I will just pretend I did
>not read your post and then proceed to whip your socks off
>at the next contest in Classic.
>
>With the help of my friends here in Tucson including Bob
>Whitely and a good flying model; that should be achieveable
>this year. Are you up to the challenge?
>
>Bob


Bob,

Of course not. It became apparent several years ago that I do not fly Classic for the thrill of winning.

As for my socks, would you accept instead a pair of Stunt Underwear? I have one pristine pair, never worn under my jeans, never intimate with my boys.

Dan

Randy · Feb 10, 2004 06:05 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#9 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-04 AT 00:18 AM (CDT)
 
Bob,

OH, Oh...That was a shot. Come on Dan, take up the gauntlet.

Hear Ye, Her Ye. Sir Bob Smiley, called The Tall here by Challenges reigning champion Sir Dan Rutherford, Knight of the Green, to a Dual! Let it be known throughout the lands that this Challenge has been laid down.

Gee, is there the hand of a fair maiden in the offing?

Randy Powell - The Instigator

rsmiley · Feb 10, 2004 03:31 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on #2 source
Found a couple of other threads to follow further expanding the inforamtion on lifting body history of Mr. Burnelli.

www.aircrash.org/burnelli/chrono1.htm

www.aircrash.org/burnelli/ch_oa1.htm

www.aircrash.org/burnelli/ch_cby3.htm

www.aircrash.orgburnelli/chrono2.htm


There are some interesting pictures of actual and concept aircraft that look like many of the images we see today in popular mechanics and popular science that the military is now considering for the future military machine to move a complete division to anywhere in the world in four days. Appears to be an interesting part of aviation history. Anybody have any knowledge of this stuff?

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler.


Bob

rsmiley · Feb 10, 2004 03:45 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#4 source

Bob

godzilla · Feb 10, 2004 05:28 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on #6 source

>I am not proposing a flying wing configuration with its
>attendant limitations on takeoff and short moments etc. but
>rather a hyprid form like the hyperbipe and or a bomber or
>cargo carrier type planform with short wings concentrating
>the major mass of lifting in the central third (or other
>suitable ratio) of the span.

Like this?

The City Smasher

Jim T. · Feb 10, 2004 05:57 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#7 source
I have a flying wing design which I think flies very well. Basically there is a 12 span by @ 20 chord central body with a high aspect ratio elevator which extends spanwise beyond the ends of the central body. The wings are each 24 span, @14 in tapering to 8 in at the tips. I've also done it in a smaller size. There have been several wings like this, including Red Reinhardt's Stunt Wing. I have rudders on each side of the central body and I have thought of extending them as booms to have a Burnelli-like contraption.

Jim

Serge Krauss · Feb 10, 2004 06:02 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#8 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-10-04 AT 06:08 PM (CDT)
 
Bob-

Unfortunately, I'm really short on time to explore and respond to your interesting, but strangely open-ended question. I have researched the history of lifting bodies, BWB's (Blended-Wing Bodies), and low-A/R tailless aircraft extensively. Unfortunately, the ones I discarded are the ones you're mostly interested in - the ones with tails. I have file drawers full of the tailless ones.

Burnelli took out a host of patents as well as fathering several successful flyers. He may have been the victim of unscrupulous government or business descrimination, but just as likely of conservatism. Unless you're going the tailless route, which you have disavowed, there isn't much more efficient for stunt than the Mackey Carousel-like twin boomers, from what I can see. Since you are not really interested in load carrying over long distances at some efficient cruise, you might as well use the best stunt wing and then stick onto it some form of pitch control.

To design to your description, though, it sounds as though you would like a thick, low-A/R wing from which smaller wings protrude, the thick wing being perhaps longer that the chord of a low-A/R flying wing or lifting body. Then it appears that you want a boomed tail for pitch stability/control. The complications arise in determining how much vorticity arises from the liftin-body's contribution to lift and relatedly, how transition occurs to the outer wings. One way around this is to choose a "scale" subject. The other is to experiment using your best guestimate to limit a certain percent of the total lift to the central "wing". That would be fun. A copromise (recommended) is to follow Burnelli to a point, perhaps enlarging the central span, widening the stab/elevator and using shorter (lower A/R) outer spans. You would have something between an old twin-boomed combat plane and a Carousel. However, I wouldn't expect it to outperform a plane whose entire wing was configured for stunt.

Most in the scale or semi-scale realm understandably lies in designs that were publicized and/or patented, but never built nor flown successfully. Junkers joins Burnelli as a champion of the tailed "flying wing". Hence their notoriety in that field. Of course, the majority of the blended-wing-body (BWB) ones are modern jets and haven't gained production past models (yet?). They will probably not make it, despite their efficiency. However, Stanford and others have built and flown the research models.

If you. like me, enjoy seeing what the limits of an unconventional configuration are, then there's much to try out. I have drawn up a lifting body/optionally BWB design that I might build someday, if only because I have seen nothing like it yet from anyone else - an unusual thing for any conceivable design. Usually, if you can imagine it, someone has built it or something like it - often over 80 years ago.

If you are thinking scale or semi-scale models, then there are a few designs (most publicized but never built) that might be stuntable, including blended types by Lamanna, Charpentier, Soldenhoff, Antes, Bohnbrite, Geraci, and a host of low-A/R tailless and annular/joined-wing designs and patents.

You've opened an interesting subject for which many on this forum may question the motivation. It will not be the quest for the best stunter or the most useful. It will be just for your own delight - and those of us who understand that kind of motivation. Like such a plane itself, such aircraft seem to blend one into the other. If you'll let me know more specifically via e-mail what You'd like to see, I can possibly dig up some near examples. I always thought that a scale (not semi-scale) Snyder/Hoffmann "ARUP", Zimmerman (United Aircraft, Chance Vought) V-173 or XF5U-1, or one of the successful annulars (all built had separate fuselages or other structures) would be a good diversion. They can be made to fly well on C/L. You're in a more difficult realm, but if you'll narrow it for me, I'll look around for you. e-mail me, if you want.

SK


Serge Krauss

rsmiley · Feb 10, 2004 08:36 PM

RE: Lifting body Stunter and history on#10 source
Serge,

Thank you for your response. You have given me many avenues to pursue. Before I answer your question; give me some time to search the web for some of those names you presented and thoroughly digest your e-mail. I am lacking in aviation history but do have an interest therein. Where it leads, I do not know at this time but exporation is indeed fun. Is it possible to develop a stunt machine? I do not know again but it would be nice. Do I have time to build an "experiment"? Not yet. Need to get a stable of four good flying birds before an experimental or full scale project. It is really more fun to fly and compete than building so after three more projects an experiment or scale model is possible. So there is some time, about a year before construction can begin. But then creations come out of dreaming and planning. Don't they?

Thanks Serge, I will follow up with an e-mail.

Bob Smiley
A Lancair 360 builder/pilot trying to be a modeler

Bob