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Classic Stunt, my way...

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dirtydan · Feb 11, 2004 02:39 PM

#0 source
The Smith/Foster announcement of the High Zoot crank for Fox 35s got into a discussion concerning new stuff, old stuff, inappropriate stuff and our individual approaches to this event.

In "rewinding the tape" last weekend, remembering input from Ron (F4Fguy) and cwmcmillin, I have reconsidered not my position on the issue of Classic but the presentation I made concerning same.

As I came off as some sort of purist on the event and related hardware, even though it was--in a separate posting--made clear that I am not a purist.

The charm of Classic seems to be in the recreation of a special era in CL Stunt, one I missed completely, but can now create for the first time. Loads and loads of neat models, most a great deal simpler than current PA models while offering a relatively high level of performance. Or at least performance representative of the era, certainly high enough to result in models which are fun to fly.

As the designs are a constant, in that we can't plop an Oriental canopy on an Impact and go fly, it's pretty much festival seating when choosing which design to build and fly. For myself, apparently I just follow the lead of Don McClave as my first two Classic models were Smoothies after seeing one of Don's fly. Currently I fly an Oriental; again, saw one of McClave's, could not resist.

The only variable of consequence when trying to get the best performance out of these old crocks is the powerplant. And it is here where I let myself get a bit too elitist, or purist, or just annoying in announcing my allegiance to the Fox 35 for Classic models. Especially when the engines in question have been fitted with trick parts.

Ron is exactly correct in his analogy to Vintage Sports Car racing. If I were to approach that hobby with the same logic used in Classsic they'd boot me out of the padock in mere moments.

So. What I am actually trying to do is recreate only the goodness and light side of CL Stunt as it was when the Oriental was a current design.

The model itself, plopped down in the pits and viewed from the outside *must* be correct, in that it matches the plans being used, the plans themselves from a reliable source. No models enlarged from some obscure 3-view the size of a postage stamp, for example.

Structure can of course be made "better" than it was back in the day, even though the actual results are highly debatable as to effectiveness.

As to the powerplant, y'all can bolt any sort of hardware in there you want. I literally *do not care* what your choice comes down to, whether it is a pond scum engine of some sort, an electric motor, a piped two-stroke or a big wad of Pirelli rubber.

However, for my own personal tastes, a good Fox 35 is simply the only choice. I don't often use this word--much too gay for me--but the "ambience" created by a flying circle where Classic models are being powered by thrumming Fox 35s is intoxicating. No whiney tuned pipes, no pond scum belchers, no whirring electric motors.

But a standard-issue Fox 35 is not the ideal piece of equipment when it comes to maximizing performance, especially true when your buddies press into service current two-strokes, not a baffled piston in the house.

And this is where I quickly and gleefully jump from a purist attitude to a more pragmatic point of view. That none-too-attractive lump in the front of my Oriental only needs to appear to be a Fox 35. Everything else is fair game. Head, NVA, drive and thrust washers, back door, ABC piston/cylinder sets, expert rework, and now the High Zoot crankshaft are all candidates for replacement and modification.

Because my desired result is the creation of a quite good Oriental, powered by the very best Fox 35 on the planet back in, say, 1968. No broken cranks, no funky needle settings, no plugs with blown seals, none of the bad stuff--none at all!--that could easily clutter up my weekend if I were to limit my engine choices to garage sale-sourced, bone-stock Fox 35s produced in the 1960s.

Does it cost more money to fly Classic in this manner, with this attitude? Of course it does, but only marginally so, as pointed out by Brett in calculating the real cost of a broken crank after travelling to a contest such as VSC.

Nobody here needs their heads examined when it comes to fitting a Classic Stunt model with a powerplant, the dollar differences between one approach (Brodak 40, Magnum 36) and a good, reliable 4-2-4 Fox 35 are almost insignificant when placed in the context of Classic Stunt.

At least as practiced in the Pacific NW, the area in which I fly.

Dan

cyberflyer · Feb 11, 2004 03:57 PM

#1 source

It once occured to me that a great classic stunt ship would be (for instance) a Jetco Kit Shark .45 with a stock Greenhead K&B .45. Froom Spinner, Top Flight Prop.

The general idea being to just use a kit from the classic era and get a proper motor for it.

Adjustable leadouts, a bullet-proof control system and a weight box would be the only changes to make.

But then I found out everyone says the Jetco Sharks were too heavy, the GH K&B's shook too much, you needed a SuperTigre .46 or .60, better to use a RSM kit, etc, etc.

And I realized that being to true to classic was going to result in a less desirable airplane.

It would be interesting to get an informal competition going on at VSC for planes actually build from the original kits.

If anyone does that anymore...


Cy.

The Cat Whisperer

Bob Reeves · Feb 11, 2004 05:34 PM

#3 source
Cy,

Being true to Classic doesn't mean you have to build an overweight poor fitting kit. Do you think Lew ever competed with a Shark built from a Jetco kit or Ed with a Skylark built from a Sterling kit.

You can scratch build or buy an RSM kit and be closer to what was actually flown in competition than what Sterling and Jetco produced.

cyberflyer · Feb 11, 2004 08:13 PM

RE: Classic Stunt, the real old way...#9 source
>Cy,
>
>Do you think Lew ever competed with a Shark built from a Jetco kit
>or Ed with a Skylark built from a Sterling kit.

'Course not.

But in the classic days Ed and Lew (and a half dozen other names) were the Wonder Gods of Stunt.

We (well, I) were mere civilians. And what you did was go to the hobby shop, get a kit, clear out a flat place on your work table and build it as best you could, put an engine the size the kit called for on it and go flying.

I figured that my Nobler did not look as good or feel as light as the ones that won at the Southwestern Regionals was due to the fact that I was just a kid in high school on a limited budget.

Maybe it turns out I shoulda been throwing away all the kit wood and using fresh contest, but it never got that far during my short career.

Maybe--in some nostalgic sense of the term--an overweight, somewhat rough looking kit Skylark with a Fox .35 in the nose IS truly classic. Even though it would not hold a candle to a SMP kit with a Tom Lay ST .46 in the nose.

In those days, I was really happy if something flew. And I had a hell of a good time flying them, even though I never got good enough to do the whole pattern.

Actually, I'd be happy as a clam if I got anything flying now.

Cy.


The Cat Whisperer

Bob Reeves · Feb 12, 2004 11:28 AM

RE: Classic Stunt, the real old way...#15 source
Cy,

Ya, I can sure relate to what you are saying, sorry for the "Do you think" didn't mean it to come off the way it sounds.

I built and flew a Sterling Skylark way back when and was about to build another when RSM introduced their kit. Sure changed my plans in a hurry, anyone want to buy a Sterling Skylark kit

N42222 · Feb 12, 2004 12:57 PM

RE: Classic Stunt, the real old way...#16 source
Bob, A friend of mine gave me a sterling skylark kit-pretty bad shape-stored a long time. What is the drawback of this kit? I'm thinking of putting it together for him just to put on a wall for display- no fly'um. Thanks,

Bob Reeves · Feb 12, 2004 04:03 PM

RE: Classic Stunt, the real old way...#21 source
Dale, there is really nothing wrong with the Sterling Skylark. My original served me well into middle Advanced with an OS 35S. I seem to remember that one rib is cut wrong in the kit but don't remember which one, a stack and sand will revel the culprit. I don't think I even replaced allot of the wood but do remember hollowing the stock top block to the point of having to patch it in several places. Build it to fly, it is a great airplane.

Randy Smith · Feb 12, 2004 04:11 PM

RE: Classic Stunt, the real old way...#22 source
>Bob, A friend of mine gave me a sterling skylark kit-pretty
>bad shape-stored a long time. What is the drawback of this
>kit? I'm thinking of putting it together for him just to put
>on a wall for display- no fly'um. Thanks,

Dale there is 4 of one rib and 2 missing. It looks like they die cut one rib twiced and forgot the other 2, like making 4 rib 7s and no rib 8s
Also Sterling lopped a full inch off of the tail moment of the airplane.(maybe to make it fit the box???)
these are easy to fix and would not be any problems for one that was just going to hang..

Regards

Randy

cyberflyer · Feb 12, 2004 09:57 PM

RE: Classic Stunt, the new old way...#25 source
>Cy,
>
>Ya, I can sure relate to what you are saying, sorry for the
>"Do you think" didn't mean it to come off the way it sounds.

I'd like to point out that there's nothing for you to be apologizing for. The "way it sounds" is the noise in your head as you read silent text.

One of the problems with this medium is that a lot of people 'hear' things that are not there--implications, inferences, assumed tones of voice and then react to them, spawning whole threads on process instead of content.

But commenting on that is like, well, you know....


>I built and flew a Sterling Skylark way back when and was
>about to build another when RSM introduced their kit. Sure
>changed my plans in a hurry, anyone want to buy a Sterling
>Skylark kit

I never got a Skylark build when I was a kid, but it was pretty much the epitome of classic stunt design in my mind. I rediscovered control line about the time I discovered ebay. On an absolute whim, hoping to 'stump the system', I typed "nobler" into the search box and was amazed to see a couple of green box kits for sale. That lead to the purchase of a bunch of original classic era kits before Google led me to Brodak and I figured out that the state of the art has advanced considerably since I was crashing and building.

The flagship of my unbuild fleet is a Smith Model Products Skylark with a Tom Lay Supertigre .46, a three blade carbon fiber Prop, a 2 inch needle nose spinner and a Tom Morris bullet proof control system. That's a far cry from the Sterling kit with the Fox .35, but wen completed, it will be the definitive classic stunt plane. IMHO

So I guess I am of two minds on the subject. A stone cold, out of the original box with a L&J .35 is really classic in the sense it represents the reality of the memories (if that's not an oxymoron) but a high-zoot, contest balsa and carbon fiber incarnation with a Tom Lay .46 (which I never would have been able to afford in the olden days) is also to be appreciated as the Classic: The Next Generation.

At the rate these ships are pouring off my assembly line, there's not much point in building anything that I don't expect to fly well. So there's no point in just throwing together something out of a kit.

Cy.

The Cat Whisperer

Bob Reeves · Feb 14, 2004 09:23 AM

RE: Classic Stunt, the new old way...#30 source
Ya, good old eBay, the reason I have the Sterling kits.

Also ended up with a Smith Skylark. The Smith kit is the 35 size skylark, difference being the 46 version has a 4.5 inch longer wing and the stab is 3 inches longer. All other dimensions are the same, the ribs are just spaced farther apart to get the extra span. I felt the 46 wing would carry the extra weight and power of a ST46 better than the 35 size ship and it would still be Classic legal.

It might be a little difficult to extend the Smith kit, probably would need to make another wing spar but doable. I am predicting 48 to 49 ounces for my Skylark 46 and not sure I could build the 35 size with a 46 much under this weight. Guess what I am saying is you might want to conceder building the larger airframe for the ST.

Hope we end up at the same contest with our Skylarks some day, that would be kinda cool..

F4FGuy · Feb 11, 2004 07:04 PM

#7 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-04 AT 07:05 PM (CDT)
 
>
>It once occured to me that a great classic stunt ship would
>be (for instance) a Jetco Kit Shark .45 with a stock
>Greenhead K&B .45. Froom Spinner, Top Flight Prop.
>
>The general idea being to just use a kit from the classic
>era and get a proper motor for it.
>
>Adjustable leadouts, a bullet-proof control system and a
>weight box would be the only changes to make.
>
>But then I found out everyone says the Jetco Sharks were too
>heavy, the GH K&B's shook too much, you needed a SuperTigre
>.46 or .60, better to use a RSM kit, etc, etc.
>
>And I realized that being to true to classic was going to
>result in a less desirable airplane.
>
>It would be interesting to get an informal competition going
>on at VSC for planes actually build from the original kits.
>
>If anyone does that anymore...
>
>
>Cy.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

The(ugh)RC Greenheads had a slug counterweight driven by the tail of the crankpin.They didn't shake nearly as much.

As to building ancient kits,I threw away most of the wood then,I see no reason to change now.Oh!my god!I've just joined the Dirt camp of classic flyers!Where's my Fox?

Ron B.

Mikey · Feb 11, 2004 04:35 PM

#2 source
Well I hate to do this but, I agree with you 100% on this issue.
I think you got it right this time old buddy.

Mike Pratt

Randy Ryan · Feb 11, 2004 06:33 PM

#4 source
Strange part of this is that when I got back into stunt after 30 years flying competitive Free Flight I did it because of Classic and wanted to relive the days of "My" stunters. Shortly thereafter I found that it ain't necessarily so because of the reasons sited here. So, while I started of with Foxes, McCoys and GH Torps, my Gladiator is running a Stalker .51 and is, in the hands of someone that can fly, competitive in PA.

It would relly be nice to have an "all Classic" meet where engines were restricted to CLassic era engines. However, NFFS has Nostalgia gas events that are restricted in that way, but, true to form, people are getting performance out of these engines never dreamt possible back then, they are not "your Mother's Torps".

So I'm afraid we all entertain the same pipe dream, 'cause its NEVER going to be 1962 again!

Randy Ryan
AMA 8500
SAM 36
I fly 'em all and love it!

Swordsman18 · Feb 11, 2004 06:42 PM

#5 source
>Well I hate to do this but, I agree with you 100% on this
>issue.
>I think you got it right this time old buddy.

Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you. Are you still molding egg loft nosecones, or do I have the wrong Mike Pratt? I doubt it!

Andy Tomasch

Mikey · Feb 12, 2004 08:16 AM

#10 source
>>Well I hate to do this but, I agree with you 100% on this
>>issue.
>>I think you got it right this time old buddy.
>
>Hi Mike,
>
>Good to hear from you. Are you still molding egg loft
>nosecones, or do I have the wrong Mike Pratt? I doubt it!
>
>Andy Tomasch

Hi Andy,
You have the right guy, but I no longer work for Estes & Cox. I am back at Sig designing models again.

Mike Pratt

Swordsman18 · Feb 12, 2004 08:22 AM

#11 source
>>>Well I hate to do this but, I agree with you 100% on this
>>>issue.
>>>I think you got it right this time old buddy.
>>
>>Hi Mike,
>>
>>Good to hear from you. Are you still molding egg loft
>>nosecones, or do I have the wrong Mike Pratt? I doubt it!
>>
>>Andy Tomasch
>
>Hi Andy,
>You have the right guy, but I no longer work for Estes &
>Cox. I am back at Sig designing models again.


Mike,

So Pratt Models is history? Typical dilemma: should I use the egg capsules for competition, or save them as priceless collectors items?

Glad to hear that Sig has a good guy back. Put it a good word for CL and FF!

Andy

Brett Buck · Feb 12, 2004 10:53 AM

#13 source
>>>>Well I hate to do this but, I agree with you 100% on this
>>>>issue.
>>>>I think you got it right this time old buddy.
>>>
>>>Hi Mike,
>>>
>>>Good to hear from you. Are you still molding egg loft
>>>nosecones, or do I have the wrong Mike Pratt? I doubt it!
>>>
>>>Andy Tomasch
>>
>>Hi Andy,
>>You have the right guy, but I no longer work for Estes &
>>Cox. I am back at Sig designing models again.
>
>
>Mike,
>
>So Pratt Models is history? Typical dilemma: should I use
>the egg capsules for competition, or save them as priceless
>collectors items?

Doug Pratt != Mike Pratt

Brett

Mikey · Feb 12, 2004 04:34 PM

#23 source
Ok guy's for the last *&^%$#@ time, Doug Pratt is not me and I am not him LOL. As a joke he called himself the Black Sheep of the Family but he is no relation at all, only a lot taller (pretty nice guy too).

Oh! And the next one to call me Dave Platt (another nice guy) is also in for it LOL.

Mikey

Mike Pratt

Ted Fancher · Feb 12, 2004 03:03 PM

#19 source
>Well I hate to do this but, I agree with you 100% on this
>issue.
>I think you got it right this time old buddy.
Mikey,

Guess that means a Fox in the new Chizler for VSC, huh?

Ted

dirtydan · Feb 12, 2004 04:01 PM

#20 source
>>Well I hate to do this but, I agree with you 100% on this
>>issue.
>>I think you got it right this time old buddy.
>Mikey,
>
>Guess that means a Fox in the new Chizler for VSC, huh?
>
>Ted


Ted,

I suspect you're right, the only delay being Mikey is looking for an $800.00 Fox 35 just to separate himself from the posers.

Dan

Mikey · Feb 12, 2004 04:37 PM

#24 source
Maybe, but it won't sound like a Fox.

Mike Pratt

Randy · Feb 11, 2004 06:53 PM

#6 source
Man, this is getting scary. I agree with Dan again. Yikes!

I sure wish I'd gone with a Don McClave approved, high Zoot Fox 35 on my last classic plane instead of the that...hmm, best not describe that engine. POS comes to mind. At least I'd still have the plane.

Randy --going back out to the garage to replace the steering gear box on my wife's Exploder. Speaking of POS material...

F4FGuy · Feb 11, 2004 07:27 PM

#8 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Dan:

I don't really dissagree,we once ran a 1750 in a 1300 Giulietta Veloce.It didn't work too well,but we tried it(talk about squirrelly).We also removed over 200 pounds by judicious paring and material substitution.

My thrust was more toward the idea of the silk purse/sow's ear approach in todays engines.Sure,you can make a very good engine out of a Fox 35.Larry and Randy etal have proved it.If I flew a classic which originally had a Fox,I'd probably use one of theirs(assuming they'd sell me one after this).But out of the box,they're still 1950s technology(as are the various crossflow clones i.e. Stalker).

Ron B.

Bill Little · Feb 12, 2004 10:25 AM

#12 source
Mr. Dirt,
Something has tragically gone amiss.........
Way too many people are agreeing with you. I believe, personally, that you need to rethink your position. At least restate it.
Many more of these subjects that bring such agreement from the forum will definitely lower my esteemed position of you!
Where's the "fire" and "passion" that we are all so use to???
Scratching my head in wonderment...............
Bill <><

P.S. What's so scary, actually, is that I hold many of the same truths self evident.


Just an Old Advanced flyer.

SRiese5283 · Feb 12, 2004 11:21 AM

#14 source
DAN Wrote>>>"The charm of Classic seems to be in the recreation of a special era in CL Stunt, one I missed completely, but can now create for the first time. Loads and loads of neat models, most a great deal simpler than current PA models while offering a relatively high level of performance. Or at least performance representative of the era, certainly high enough to result in models which are fun to fly"

Dan so well put.

As for your comment on broken cranks. "IF I" were to go to a contest say 10-2000 miles from home I would always bring an extra engine. Don't you?

scott(good times, good times)Riese

Scott Riese

Lou Crane · Feb 12, 2004 01:09 PM

#17 source
Dan,

Agree! Special reason: -- Most of the top guys had very special engines, although stock. Between personal **secret** touches, and cooperative mfrs, plus a dash of very particular attention, they were "stock" to a degree unlikely to be found in the hobby shop examples.

IOW - either ON the specs precisely, or to the more effective side of them.

So, today, an L&J or Silver Fox with ABC, hemi, stuffer back and zoot crank is a way to come closer to what the most noted fliers had to work with. It is not a betrayal of the " " " Spirit " " " of Classic.

Further, since most models have cowls hiding the metal, your appearance criterion is purty darn sufficient.

\BEST\LOU

J Ashford · Feb 12, 2004 01:53 PM

#18 source
Lordy, Lordy, This is one I just can't stay out of.

Got back in CL stunt three years ago with a Veco Smoothie. Built just like the first one (1956). Silkspan, Dope, Fox .35 (same engine as '56) Veco Bellcrank,control horns and wheels. Painted same colors and design as original. Went to VSC and was awarded 6 points. I really thought I did a better job at age 60 then I did at 14 but what the hey! (guess it wasn't shiny enough)

Since then I have built Hurricanes, Shark 35, Mustangs, Skylarks and just can't bring myself to put high zoot engines in these planes. I am using Max FP-S and Max H engines. I have a little trouble getting these to work well ALL the time but when I get the needle right it is heaven!

I do have a very good Silver Foxx .35 that is on my Super Clown (Original PDQ). My Sterling Mustang profile is powered by a Johnson .35-C and that is a ball to fly. Love that Johnson "bark" Have a couple of G-21 .35 Combat engines and fly Hellers or Nemisis with them for power just to get the blood pumping once in a while. I do this for fun! You just can't beat the sound and the feeling of being 14,25,35 again(take your pick).

Thanks Dan, for reminding all of us old f---s err, timers from whence we came Icons just for you.

Later, John

Bottomzup · Feb 13, 2004 12:12 PM

#26 source
Dan,

In 1962 I ran a BSA Rocket tranny in my 1952 Triumph hard tail, does that count? Now I have a Merco .61 in a 700+ sq. in. Chief that, although I haven't tried entering it in Classic, is certainly a "classic" experience for me. When the leading link front end Grieves showed up, I got rid of my 441 Victor. It was a pain of a thumper but I'd like to still have it. Not to ride, you know, just to listen to. I pretty much started out in control line with Fox .35s and understand the venerable Fox fairly well. I also still love the sound it makes but hadn't used it much 'til I got my hands on an L&J. In 1964 I ran a Triumph Trophy with a trick "Mickey Thompson" crank that was much better than a stocker. Seemed like the thing to do at the time. I've got no problem at all with improving on period engines anyway you can. Can't imagine a balanced HZ crank, better head design, improved porting, and stuffer back plate hurtin' anything.

"Improving" engines is at the very heart of all motor sports and when we put internal combustion engines in our little toy airplanes we crossed right over into that territory IMHO. Identifying motor vehicles by their exhaust note was a childhood hobby for me and many of my friends. I'm pretty sure though that I won't be able to tell the difference between the sound of a high zoot Fox and a stocker if Don McClave sets the needle. I'm looking forward to hearing that! Mike Conner once said to me that 'it's' all about turning money into noise. For me, when the engine exhaust note, propellor and airframe sounds combine just right, that noise becomes beautiful music.

That's my rambling 2-sints woit.

Al says hi,

Dave

dirtydan · Feb 13, 2004 02:56 PM

#27 source
As for your comment on broken cranks. "IF I" were to go to a contest say 10-2000 miles from home I would always bring an extra engine. Don't you?

scott(good times, good times)Riese

Scott Riese


I'm now into, have always been into, treble back-ups in this department. The motor from my Zilch can of course be used in the Oriental. And vice versa. The toolbox always has at least one back-up Fox 35 stuck in there someplace.

And you can remember many times when I drug my second Smoothie along to contests, mainly because it was easier to pack the complete model than to pull the motor.

Dan

John Sunderland · Feb 13, 2004 04:01 PM

#28 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-13-04 AT 04:03 PM (CDT)
 
You know whats funny, almost any time I am out with a group of modelers somebody has trouble firing up their Fox. Although I only use them for sport flying, I never have trouble flipping one and nearly always can set one by ear with a simple tipping up of the nose.
To me it is a user friendly stunt engine for those who are used to what makes em tick. No tach needed and just a decent 5 pitched and balanced wood prop. Besides, the noise is right and it smells like stunt!

I love this motor, but I prefer a OS35 s over the Fox. Hope winter ends soon as I am in need of a little burnt castor on my clothes and in my lungs.

John S.

John Sunderland

Old Sourdough · Feb 14, 2004 03:20 PM

#31 source
John wrote:

"...Hope winter ends soon as I am in need of a little burnt castor on my clothes and in my lungs...."
=================================
A big Amen to that from the back row in the white far Northwest! Here's hoping, too, that I can get the physical ailment repaired/rehabilitated to the point where I can work and fly again before then.

The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A