Stuka Stunt Control Line Forum
Archive, 2000–2021 · recovered from the Internet Archive
Forums › Stuka Stunt Main Forum

Heavy Iron

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 29 of 29 known posts recovered

Dr Spark · Feb 11, 2004 08:33 PM

#0 source
You guys who fly big airliners or military jets have my profound admiration! My own log book shows a modest 800 hours in Aeronca, various Cessnas, and the Focke-Wulf 44J biplane. (plus a few hours in a Sweitzer sailplane).


I have been in the front office of large planes only twice: once in the jump-seat of a 747 on approach to HNL, and some mild turns in the right seat of a Navy P3 Orion off the coast out of Point Mugu.

Airline pilots seldom comment on their jobs.

1. Does piloting a 747 (or equal) ever get boring?
2. Do you ever become disoriented climbing out at an absurd angle of attack when you can't see the wings: only the sky ahead?
3. How do you cope with all those lights and gages, which could go crazy at any moment?
4. Airline pilots do a "walk-around" before flight. Do you really think you can find anything wrong?

When things get dull around here, perhaps some "inside" comments on what it feels like to fly a $50 million airplane would be welcome.

Just wondering...

Floyd

lenci1938e · Feb 11, 2004 09:04 PM

#1 source
Dr. Spark,

I don't know, I have about 800 hours in an Areonca 7AC, some Piper Pawnee time, a little Pitts Special time and some glider time too and I think it is all very cool. Don't ever think that flying ragwing tail draggers and spam cans is any less exciting than what the other guys do. It is all aviation and it is all exciting and fun!

Shawn

N42222 · Feb 11, 2004 10:53 PM

#3 source
I had the pleasure of that job for 37 years+ and have been retired for a year now. It's fading from my memory much too quickly. The amazing thing to me is the technological change from hand/eye coordination skills of DC6 days to programing/management skills of Triple 7s and the like that occurred during my career. The airplanes that people such as Paul and Howard design and build are almost beyond comprehension in their complexity, yet are still user friendly. But piloting airplanes is a much smaller fraction of the job today. By this I mean one's mind is on other subjects- security, terrorist attacks, litigation from folks who ignore fasten seat belt signs, failing economics, maintaining ones' health for physical exams twice yearly, and of course, Profiency checks yearly. Flight Attendants on the other side of barred, bullet-proof and locked cockpit doors, firearms or Taser training. Paramedic training. There's a lot more than just checking weather, figuring fuel, and taking off. Requires a lot of focus. Sounds like a lot of negativity there, but it's all worth it when that Mechanic gives you the salute and you head out with two or three hundred trusting souls! But you are right, they don't talk about it much, so I'll shut up! Best regards,

Ted Fancher · Feb 12, 2004 12:24 AM

#5 source
>I had the pleasure of that job for 37 years+ and have been
>retired for a year now. It's fading from my memory much too
>quickly. The amazing thing to me is the technological change
>from hand/eye coordination skills of DC6 days to
>programing/management skills of Triple 7s and the like that
>occurred during my career. The airplanes that people such as
>Paul and Howard design and build are almost beyond
>comprehension in their complexity, yet are still user
>friendly. But piloting airplanes is a much smaller fraction
>of the job today. By this I mean one's mind is on other
>subjects- security, terrorist attacks, litigation from folks
>who ignore fasten seat belt signs, failing economics,
>maintaining ones' health for physical exams twice yearly,
>and of course, Profiency checks yearly. Flight Attendants on
>the other side of barred, bullet-proof and locked cockpit
>doors, firearms or Taser training. Paramedic training.
>There's a lot more than just checking weather, figuring
>fuel, and taking off. Requires a lot of focus. Sounds like a
>lot of negativity there, but it's all worth it when that
>Mechanic gives you the salute and you head out with two or
>three hundred trusting souls! But you are right, they don't
>talk about it much, so I'll shut up! Best regards,

Well said, Dale.

Sounds like you and I shared a lifetime of experiences!

Well, Doc, it does get boring once you get to altitude and start trying to keep your eyes open until it's your turn to take a break. The enroute stuff over the oceans is demanding but repetitive and sometimes irksome when the HF receivers are making more noise than talk and you've got to get a position report done and your little piece of the sky isn't secure until you get the report made etc. etc. That's a bit mundane.

What isn't mundane (or wasn't before you've been booted out of the seat by the unforgiving taskmaster of old age) is the anticipation of sitting down in the left seat of a state of the art 130,000,000 dollar machine with 400 trusting people in the back and doing all the right things to get them safely where they want to be. That is one of the greatest highs you can experience.

As Dale suggests, the tools that Paul and Howard and thousands of skilled and dedicated individuals have given us are amazing devices. The privilege of being in command of such a machine on such a mission was never a ho hum thing for me. I'm blessed to be able to say that there wasn't a single time in 38 years that I didn't put on the blue uniform in great anticipation of what the next few days held in store for me.

Those tools, the training I received and, yes, the dedication and singleness of purpose that went into accepting the responsbility of commanding that machine and taking responsibility for those lives combined to make that career one of unparalleled satisfaction and pleasure each and every time I went to work. I feel blessed to have been afforded the privelege of doing so.

Flying the big modern machines (I finished my career flying Boeing 747-400s for the last four or five years) is almost a foreign experience compared to when I began on DC-6s and 7s and Convair 340s and old Boeing 707-720s. The glass cockpit, flight management system based navigation systems and the unbelievable power and reliability of modern powerplants seems only a half step below what we watched Captain Kirk do on Star Trek (shoot, just before I left we were getting trained on "phasers" to put on stun and disable the bad guys!)

The modern airliner can be programmed before departure to do pretty much everything except raise and lower the gear and flaps. If Air Traffic Control would leave you alone (tough to do when you share the sky with hundreds of others)you could program the flight management systems to climb, level off at optimum cruise altitude, follow the programmed flight plan within literally several feet of centerline halfway around the world, climb to a higher altitude when fuel burn made it more efficient to do so, descend at an optimum rate to arrive over the approach fix to the airport precisely on speed and altitude, follow the Instrument Landing System to the runway, touchdown like a feather, brake to a stop and...oops here's where the programmers dropped the ball, the flight attendant would have to wake up the pilot to taxi to the gate! Guys, this is something H.G. Wells would have marveled at!

No, it's never quite that easy and despite the capability to do what I just described, there is a lot more involved in the real world of getting from Point A to B around the world; an awful lot of it having more to do with politics and legalities and security than with airplanes and flying. It's just a reality of the world we live in.

Yeah, we do let the fancy computers do a lot of the mundane stuff enroute but, rest assured, the drivers are, for the most part, pilots at heart and even though the airplanes are capable of all I've described, the men and women who fly them want to do just that ... fly them. I flew glass cockpit, "autoflight" capable airplanes for about twelve of my 38 years in the cockpits. Doing so was a chore to learn and a blessing to use after gaining competence in doing so.

There are certain conditions under which we are required to use, for instance, the autoland capabilities and when those conditions exist we do do so. Interestingly enough, with the 747 this is absolutely necessary because the airplane can land itself when those in the cockpit see nothing but fog in the windshield. Because we sit so high in the upper deck flight deck and because the body angle at touchdown is so great, the rules require that the airplane land itself in "minimum" conditions. After it has landed, the nose lowered and it has braked itself to a near stop the flight crew is finally low enough that they are able to taxi carefully to the gate (utilizing special low visibility lighting systems in place at airports at which such low minimum approaches are authorized.

I used these capabilities less than a handful of times in my dozen years of autoland capable service. Pilots like to fly and, unless the rules require otherwise, your pilots will almost certainly be doing so.

The modern airplanes are a delight to fly. You might think of them as airborne 18 wheelers (exactly the number of wheels on a 747) but to the pilot the plane is no bigger than the instrument panel behind which he sits. As my first instructor at the airline told my troubled stick buddy, "the instrument panel's no bigger than the one on your Cessna. If you get the panel to go where you want to go the rest of it will almost certainly come right along behind it!" Wise words!

Of the big ones I flew, the B757 was hands down the sweetest airplane to fly. With both engines running (fortunately, aside from training exercises, I never experienced the alternative) it performed like a fighter. Remember, these airliners are required to fly at max gross with an engine failure at critical speed on take off. Thus, with both engines at full thrust, they have more than twice the power they need to fly. Wheeeeee! It was totally honest and had the feel of an airplane a fraction of its size. The automated systems were flawless in my experience and you, frankly, felt like Sky King at the controls.

To be fair, I've got to admit that passengers then (and now) hated the '57. The coach seats were too small and too close together and the blue rooms (heads) too often separated from the passengers by flight attendant service carts. Much as I enjoyed the steering, I got more evil looks from passengers after the flights than on the rest of my career put together. Too bad.

The B-727 was the most fun to fly. Much less sophisticated than the modern iron it required a familial touch to perform at its best. For a young Captain it was the perfect airplane to teach you both how to fly to the best of your ability and, as a captain, how necessary it was to always be aware of the performance of your crew, taking nothing for granted and always being right with the airplane at all times. Handled great, was comparatively underpowered and had a lot of drag in the landing configuration. It took a lot of attention but paid great dividends in satisfaction when you did it right. I loved flying it.

I spent 13 years on the DC-8 as a co-pilot during the stagnant years of the oil crunch, the DC-10 grounding and other dark nights of the industry in the '70s and 'early '80s. It was a truck, but a great passenger airplane. Stable and comfortable. I endured it but it wasn't an airplane I'd dream about it retirement.

I went from the wonderful and modern 757/767 fleet into the B747-100 and 200 series. This was like a step back into the dark ages. After many years of state of the art avionics, a quiet flight deck and good ergonomics, this was like asking for a vacation in Hades. Noisy, dark, round dial "jurassic" instruments and antiquated nav systems; it was a chore to haul around the world. But the opportunity to fly to Europe was irresisteable to a lifelong domestic US driver. I loved the trips to London and Paris and Frankfurt and all over the Pacific. Especially thought provoking were trips to Saipan and Guam from South Korea where the arrival to Saipan took us directly over Tinian where the Enola Gay departed for that fateful journey over Hiroshima. A mixture of discovery, awe and contemplative sadness about what the landscape said about the human condition ... whatever your feelings politically.

The 747-400 was, simply put, the finest tool for its job of anything I've ever been associated with. A well lit, quiet cockpit with pretty much everything I could ever contemplate to make the pilot's task easier and safer. The flight management system and data link communication capability made international navigation and position tending easier than when under constant radar coverage domestically. The range and power of the 400 put the old "rope start, round dial, jurassic jet 747-100s" to shame. The four engines gave a sense of confidence to the pilots which is rapidly becoming passe with the preference of the airlines for more "efficient" two engine jets for just about every purpose including flying for thousands of miles over open oceans and far from anyplace to land should one of the "redundant two" crap out in an untimely location.

It might just be a curmudgeonly old pilot talking but, I think as the -400s give way completely to the twin jet tidal wave, you...no, now, we...the passengers give up just a little bit of what we had before. Don't get me wrong. The modern engines are incredibly reliable and efficient and in the modern economic world there is probably no choice but to embrace that economy. Nonetheless, when one of four engines fails in the middle of the ocean, you've got an inconvenience. When one of your two fails, you've got an emergency.

That's sort of where your "Big Iron" pilot might start to earn his stripes. Take heart, after 38 years of associating with thousands of them, you're in good hands. They're good at what they do. And they love doing it. It was the greatest job in the world. God, how I miss it.

Ted Fancher

ucflier · Feb 12, 2004 06:03 AM

#6 source
Ted:

I have been wanting to ask you this for a while, but have refrained - but no longer! Did you ever fly into the old Hong Kong airport (I think it was called Kai Tek)? I have flown into a few tight fields in the NC mountains, and the picture I saw of a twin heavy (maybe an Airbus) making a turn over a huge checkerboard marker, on the side of a mountain, in the scud, gave me chills. I would not be inclined to make that my final destination (no pun intended) if the approach were that bad. Was it?

Thanks.

Ted Fancher · Feb 12, 2004 10:03 AM

#13 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-04 AT 10:07 AM (CDT)
 
>Ted:
>
>I have been wanting to ask you this for a while, but have
>refrained - but no longer! Did you ever fly into the old
>Hong Kong airport (I think it was called Kai Tek)? I have
>flown into a few tight fields in the NC mountains, and the
>picture I saw of a twin heavy (maybe an Airbus) making a
>turn over a huge checkerboard marker, on the side of a
>mountain, in the scud, gave me chills. I would not be
>inclined to make that my final destination (no pun intended)
>if the approach were that bad. Was it?
>
>Thanks.

Oh Yeah,

Flew a couple of dozen trips into Kai Tek in the older 747s. It was often as intimidating as you imagine it to be. One of the consistent realities for flight operations in China is the almost constant cruddy air and lousy visibility. The initial part of the approach was almost never flown "visually" due to the poor vis. That approach you talk about was an instrument approach at about a thiry degree angle off the runway directly toward the hills on which that checkerboard was painted.

You flew the ILS until you became visual with the Checkerboard, looked to your right and, hopefully, picked up the runway; then started a turn more or less around the tall buildings of downtown and tried to roll the wings level before touchdown. You might have seen videos of some of the more "exciting" arrivals to Kai Tek. It was a piece of work I'll tell you.

Strangely enough, the approach didn't have all that bad a record when it came to bent tin. One of the things about difficult approaches and airports in demanding terrain is that the crews never take anything for granted. In aviation, it is often complacency that causes metal to become familiar with the landscape. Pilots were never complacent making the approach to Kai Tek.

In my current little part time gig at NASA's Aviation Safety Reporting System I review hundreds of anomalies and incidents from the field. One of the most consistent words used in our "expert" analysis of these events is "complacency" ... right up their with "assumption" and its variations.

As the saying goes: "Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect". That neat quote pretty much describes ops at Kai Tek.

In stunt terms it was kind of like flying in the "finals". You had to have all your stuff together or the outcome could be ugly!

Ted

Iskandar Taib · Feb 12, 2004 10:24 PM

#17 source
I must say, Kai Tak was interesting from a window seat, as well. At the very last minute, you had buildings flashing past the wingtips seemingly close enough to touch...

Plane spotting in Hong Kong was supposedly the best in the world.

Ironbomb · Feb 11, 2004 09:06 PM

#2 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-11-04 AT 09:10 PM (CDT)
 
I'm not a pilot on the heavys, but I am a flight mechanic on them and fly up front regularly.

1) I can say that they may seem a bit bored at times, but are always attentive to radio calls and instruments. They are professionals.

2) If they ever get disorientated, they dont show it, but I dont think they get disorientated, not that I have ever seen. And I have been in some pretty crappy weather with them at times, they live in it, ALOT.

3) The "gages" and lights are second nature to all but the newest aircrew, the Captains know the airplanes and the systems better than anyone, and his crew are always well trained if they dont have hours of experience.

4) I have been on the recieving end of a "walk around", so, yes, they do find things wrong with the plane. Some times its minor, and easily shown to be "with in limits" or not affecting the airworthiness of the aircraft. If I do my job, they never see a "real" problem. But the second set of eyes is not only required, its welcomed. To have the faith of an aircrew is something I dont take lightly. I love airplanes in all forms (except Airbus) and I could'nt imagine making a living doing anything else.

Thats just my perspective as a flight mechanic on your questions, I hope it helps

Iskandar Taib · Feb 11, 2004 10:54 PM

#4 source
What's wrong with Airbus?

linnix · Feb 12, 2004 07:22 AM

#7 source
This is a little off track but IMHO the best books ever written about the romantic period of commercial aviation were those written by Ernest K. Gann. The High and the Mighty, Band of Brothers, and his autobiorgraphy..Hostage to Fortune are all must reads for those interested in the subject. Of course the first two are fiction, the autobiography covers more than his aviation career...still captivating reading and a look back into a period of aviation that was more glamorous than today's.

Just passing this along to those who might be interested in a good read...and my hat is off to those that design, build, maintain,and fly modern commercial and military aircraft, you do an incredible job in a complex environment.

Lynn

Steve Fitton · Feb 12, 2004 07:55 AM

#10 source
"Fate is the Hunter" was another of my favorite Ernest Gann books.

In my opinion Ted's missive above easily rises to the level of Gann's eloquence or even Richard Bach. Ted could probably have a second career in print if he so desired!


Steve

Ted Fancher · Feb 12, 2004 09:53 PM

#16 source
>"Fate is the Hunter" was another of my favorite Ernest Gann
>books.
>
>In my opinion Ted's missive above easily rises to the level
>of Gann's eloquence or even Richard Bach. Ted could
>probably have a second career in print if he so desired!
>
>
>Steve

Steve,

I can only say thank you. A bit of a stretch, but your comments made my day.

Ted

N42222 · Feb 12, 2004 10:34 PM

#18 source
Speaking of Ernie Gann and "Fate Is The Hunter"- I served as an LCA, "Line Check Airman", for five years on the DC10. Part of my "personal agenda" was to insure that the new DC10 pilot had read and digested "Fate Is The Hunter" somewhere in his/her past. If not, I kept a copy handy for the purpose. This was a block that had to be checked before I signed them off and sent them on their way. Having seen that awful movie version with Glenn Ford did NOT meet my requirement! Let's see now....."rule books are made of paper, they will not cushion the sudden meeting of earth and metal..." I better stop before Leonard tosses me out for non-modeling behaviour! Best regards all,

Steve Fitton · Feb 13, 2004 08:45 AM

#24 source
I think they went WAY out of their way to create an airliner that looked like nothing in the sky. I wonder if they were afraid of legal action if they portrayed any existing plane

Ron · Feb 12, 2004 08:07 AM

#11 source
>This is a little off track but IMHO the best books ever
>written about the romantic period of commercial aviation
>were those written by Ernest K. Gann. The High and the
>Mighty, Band of Brothers, and his autobiorgraphy..Hostage to
>Fortune are all must reads for those interested in the
>subject. Of course the first two are fiction, the
>autobiography covers more than his aviation career...still
>captivating reading and a look back into a period of
>aviation that was more glamorous than today's.
>
>Just passing this along to those who might be interested in
>a good read...and my hat is off to those that design, build,
>maintain,and fly modern commercial and military aircraft,
>you do an incredible job in a complex environment.

I'd add "Wind, Sand, and Stars" by St.Euxpery (sp?) to that list

Tools · Feb 12, 2004 07:36 AM

#8 source
Hey Dr Spark!

We apparantly havn't been around each other much, most folks complain that they can't get me to shut up about flying. It's what I live for. It's all I've ever wanted to do. I got lucky and got to do the carrier thing, but it's all fun. I have the utmost of respect for light civil drivers and helo pilots, which for some reason are considered lowly compared to us military jocks and heavy drivers. I don't buy that for a minute. My entire flying life has been spent with either a TEAM of trouble shooters standing IN FRONT of my plane for EACH AND EVERY launch making sure EVERYTHING is as perfect as it can be. Light civil drivers don't get that kind of support. Heavy jets are comparatively easy to land, indeed inertia is on our side. We're set up for the landing miles out. Helos (especially navy types) fly approaches with EXTREMELY marginal wave off paths, decelerating the entire time to touchdown. THAT'S disorienting.

1. Does piloting a 747 (or equal) ever get boring?

Been the flt engineer on a L-1011, but that's the only heavy I've crewed on. Have co-piloted 727's, 737's, MD-88's. Have only flown domestic. No, it doesn't EVER get boring. It clearly does for some, and for them I'm sad. I'm constantly glued to the window. Looking up at the stars at night, looking down at the ground during the day. My neck always get a crook in it. My office view is better in the middle of bad weather than Don Trumps. Popping through a low overcast on a cool morning, just at sunrise with no high clouds, that's something to see. Especially on a regular basis. It's all gray, gloomy and damp on the ground. Instantly it's blue skies like you can't imagine with what looks like a fresh snowfall all around.


2. Do you ever become disoriented climbing out at an absurd angle of attack when you can't see the wings: only the sky ahead?

Well, maybe for an instant now and then. Not seeing the wings has nothing to do with it. Not seeing the horizon does. Takes nothing more than a hint of a glance at the instruments to instantly correct everything. It becomes second nature. About the closest to totally tumbled my personal gyro ever was when I did a weather recce once solo in a A-4 Skyhawk. I went into the operating area and did a bunch of acro in the clouds. Uh, not the smartest thing... Doing a loop in a A-4, you start at 10K feet and top around 20K feet. It allowed me to check the tops quicker! Never did break out. Did a couple loops, 1/2 cuban eight, blah blah. That was disorienting. Night formation flying can be VERY disorienting. Air to air refueling in and out of the clouds at night, same thing. About anything dealing with night formation flying. I'm beginning to remember why I got out. Approaches to the ship at night go like this. 5 or 6K feet per minute rate of decent to 5K feet AGL. Then 2.5 FPM ROD to 1200'. Fly that till glideslope. It's very disorienting at night in and out, then into an overcast.


3. How do you cope with all those lights and gages, which could go crazy at any moment?

Not nearly as intimidating as you would think. Especially after training. Which is SO MUCH more comprehensive than light civil drivers get. And if they all go crazy. Pick the most important one and fix it, then the next, and so on. Know how to eat an elephant? One bite at a time. Flying is no different. Granted this takes some practice, but it applies to EVERYTHING in life.


4. Airline pilots do a "walk-around" before flight. Do you really think you can find anything wrong?

Yes. Not often, indeed maintenance is great. But once in a while. It's like looking at gauges. You'll look at an area of a plane, and something not normal usually sticks out like a sore thumb. It's the normal things, but at the wrong time that are hard. Holes from birdstrikes, tire problems, leaks, missing fasteners. Open panels are often overlooked, but then we see them open a lot.

Nothing is ever as it seems. I love my airline job, but it's more hectic than the military was. In 4.5 years, I've worked for American Eagle, American and Delta. I've been through 8 airline schools, flown or engineered 5 planes, one of them 3 different times. Lost my job and got it back. I have at least 6 different months away from home the entire month, have been employed since Nov without working a single day. My salary (taboo subject here, but hold on...) has ranged from $18K/year to $118K/year, not including the unemployment, in only 4.5 years, all for the exact same job. I'm FAR from getting rich doing this for a living, but I like it. That's more than much of American can say for their job, so I'm not complaining. There's much that directly applies to my job about which I have no idea behind the rhyme or reason. Please don't ask me why tickets cost what they do, that's WAY above my pay grade. Well, go ahead and ask, I don't mind, I just don't know.

The military thing was awesome. I'm 4th generation military. I went to Annapolis, drove ships, flew off carriers, lead men. The flying is unbelievable. Ever spend 3 hours cloud surfing in uncontrolled airspace? And get paid? 450kts at 50' is COOL. Got to take a friend for a ride (he was military) in a airshow. Practically illegal. Civilian ATC gives single seat military jets a wide range of latitude. Although I have a meager 1300 hrs military, it was flown without a single hour on a autopilot. Try 3.5 hours at 400' at night under an overcast (completely dark) dropping sonobuoys, turning at up to 45 to 50 deg angle of bank. Your eyes wander back and forth between the radar altitude and the attitude gyro, about 5 inches apart, FOR 3.5 HOURS. Then go home and land on a carrier. Your gross weight will range from 50K lbs down to about 35K lbs. When I interviewed with American Eagle, we flew the 707 sim (oh, the civilian guys were freaked!). I was amazed by all the bells and whistles, the interviewer couldn't believe I'd flown something more primitive. I didn't know how to use a HSI till I got in the airlines! All I had in the Navy was a single needle RMI and a UHF radio. With that I have flown approaches to 200 and 1/2. Now there's a thing called needles on the ship. It's a fire control radar that locks onto your plane, then sends a datalink and moves the ILS like needles in a similar fashion. VERY ACCURATE, we consider civilian ILS a non-precision approach. Needles get very jumpy in close, or in rough weather. Did have the ship move 38' (+/- 19') during a approach one day.

Enough rambling, sorry.

I get nearly the same excitement out of flying model airplanes. Really. I'll never be all that competetive at this hobby. I'm having too much fun. It reminds me too much of flying them as a kid, dreaming of doing what I did. Hard to believe I'm a has been, already. But that's alright. I can now relax a bit, enjoy my relatively calm airline flying (oh, when we're flying, bills, family problems, broke cars, it ALL goes away), and concentrate on hobbies and keeping my kids straight, maybe get one onto flying models.

Take care,

Mike Danford, and for those who don't know, Tools was my Navy callsign. A tiny remnant of the glory days.


Mike

Tools · Feb 12, 2004 07:46 AM

#9 source
Oh ya,

Favorite military jet, A-4.
Favorite civil jet, agree with Ted, B-727, simply great.
Favorite stunter, Chipmunk, uh, c/l line that is.

Gonna build a Pietenpol, and power it with Ford Model A engine!
Fly it in the back yard.

"I love to fly, and it shows." Hey Wingwalk, how do I get a ride?!!

Tools

Mike

WINGWALK · Feb 12, 2004 08:41 AM

#12 source
Tool's,

I have been known to tap the kid on the shoulder that is hanging on the fence day dreaming at the airport. It has been my pleasure to introduce many young souls into the world of aviation that I love so much. Most kids these days are into video games and hanging around a mall. When I find a rare gem in the rough, I want to shape and polish it. If I can open the door to something that is thought to be out of reach, I jump at the chance to give them a boost towards their dream.

I have a total of 4 people that I have taken up for their 1st airplane ride that have gone onto a life as an airline pilot. Their Mothers and Fathers have written to me to tell me what an effect on their childs life that that flight had on them. It makes me feel rather good inside to think I played a roll in shaping a young childs life. (for the better I hope)

So Tool's, You ask what you have to do for a ride? Well you can do it one of two ways. You can hang on the fence with a dazed look on your face. Or, you can just come up to me and say " Hey Kirk, I'm Tool's, Any chance we could get up in the Beast today?" Chances are you will get to go up. The only question is... will you be inside sitting in a seat or not?


Kirk Wicker
www.wingwalk.com

PS. "Fate Is The Hunter" Is one of my all time favorite books.

Al Rabe · Feb 12, 2004 05:50 PM

#14 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-04 AT 08:00 PM (CDT)
 
Nah, Its mostly a boring job, just sitting around waiting to get somewhere, and trying to stay awake. Its hard to imaging a career of routine flying for just one airline. An airline bum like me has seen a bit of the dark side.

DC-3
Let's see, We used to circle the flaming Gorge Reservoir each day at about 300 feet to check progress while they were building it to create Lake Meade. We would chase antelope and wild horses on the Wind River Range low enough the stallions would rear up and paw at the airplane. And then there was the time we landed in Riverton, Wy. with a 50 kt wind blowing. Every time we tried to lower the tail to taxi, the airplane became airborne again. After a couple of tries we said "to heck with it" and pushed on. One very cold night with the surface temperature at -30, C or F are the same at -30, we had a turn around form Denver to Rock Springs. The oil pressure gages were direct reading with oil filled oil pressure lines running from the engines to the cockpit. The oil congealed in the lines and we had oil pressure lights on all night. The windshield frosted over from the inside and had to be scraped to see to land. One day we got into some clear air turbulence in Idaho, bad enough that the Captain and I were both hanging onto the yoke in self-defense. Our flight kits wound up in the tail of the airplane. Mechanics checked the airplane after we landed and found that more than half of the 150 (or so) bolts that hold each of the outboard wings on were broken.

DC-4
The DC-4 was a lovely airplane to fly. It was slow and unpressurized but the easiest airplane to land of any airplane I ever flew. It was a lousy airplane in ice. It wouldn't carry enough ice to cool a cocktail. the deicer boot bladders on the outer wing panels opened, when inflated, above and below the wing leading edge centerline allowing the wing to freeze over the boots with any ice at all. The DC-4 also had another endearing characteristic. In a thunderstorm's heavy rain, one or maybe all of the engine fire warnings would illuminate.

C-46
I had an interesting trip flying co-pilot on a Logair contract. We blew a cylinder off the left engine after a stop or two. The Captain unfeathered the engine and ran it idle to land. We exchanged cargo, fired up both engines and taxied out to take off on the right engine only. Airborne, we feathered the left engine again and continued this was through four more stops to Oke City, our base. If we had landed with a feathered engine the Air Force would have shut us down then. One snowy night at Hill AFB the weather went below minimums, in fact, it went to zero visibility. the Captain asked if we could taxi anyway and wait for improved visibility at the runway end. The tower reluctantly agreed. Reaching the end of the runway, the captain pulled onto the runway and brought the engines up to take-off power for about a minute then did a 180 and blew for about a minute in the opposite direction. When he asked the tower for a visibility report, they replied "the runway visibility showed half a mile but the tower visibility was still zero. and further, they could hear our engines and knew what we were doing." The captain told them to either issue a take-off clearance or he would blow the visibility up to three miles and depart VFR. "Zantop 556, you are cleared for take-off."

DC-6
Times were achanging so nothing much happened here except for the night we were taking off from Fort Smith bound for Tulsa. We blew a cylinder clear through the cowling of no 2 at about 80 knots. I called "abort!". The captain said "Like hell. I'm not about to spend a couple of days in Fort Smith." We got the engine changed in Tulsa. I guess those were the days when men were men and captains ran their airplanes. One day while operating from Los Angles to San Francisco, we had an electrical fire in the cockpit. I was the engineer at the time and was able to kill the power to the circut and used a fire bottle to get it extinguished. The DC-6 was the first airplane I flew with radar, and therein hangs several tales.

Boeing 707/720
The best occurence in the 720 happened on a max gross weight take-off from Dallas Love Field. At liftoff no 3 engine blew up, splitting the compressor case and dumping 300 compressor blades into the bottom of the cowling. Early Jet engines weren't so reliable in those days. There was, and still is a Coca-Cola bottling plant just off the end of Runway 13 which we were departing from. That was the biggest darn sign I ever saw really close up. We couldn't get over it and had to turn to clear it. After forty five minutes climbing we got high enough to dump fuel and return to get another airplane to continue the trip to Seattle.

Boeing 727
I flew this bird about 9000 hours, nearly all captain. Not much of interest, a couple of hydraulic failures, a blown tire and some interesting country getting to South America, Mexico and Canada. This was a friendly old bird. About the only interesting thing to happen to me as a 727 captain was a failure of a fuel quanity gage while refueling at Dulles. Since the refueling operation was controlled by the fuel gages, the left outboard shut off showing full but, in fact, was 6500lbs short. With the airplane certified for a maximum fuel unbalance of 500 lbs for take-off, the 6500 lb balance mad for an interesting departure. We were just going 20 minutes over to National and, wouldn't you know it, had to land on the short runway 33. Northwest maintenance couldn't find the problem and assured me that it must have been a flight control glitch. I didn't believe them and had another interesting take-off with a full load of passengers.

DC-8
On arriving in Panama after a non-stop from JFK we went to the hotel. Operations called wanting to know where the cowling for no 3 was? I told them, "not in my hotel room, and that engine operation had been normal". Seems like it hadn't been fastened too well in New York and came off the airplane that night over Panama City scaring the hell out of some peasant farmer. I also had a main system hydraulic failure while making an approach to the 14,000 high La Paz, Bolivia airport. We were stuck with approach flaps, no engine reverse capability, and some hydraulic flight controls inop, to land at the world's highest commercial airport. With the gear down and unable to retract it, we couldn't get over the Andies to our alternate, Lima. At Manaus, wild tigers roamed and roared outside the hotel compound because of the captive female inside, in heat. I got to make a couple of trips to Hawaii. This is as far West, as I was ever to fly as captain.

Boeing 747
The 747 was a delight to fly with light controls and a roll rate which belied its size. In the 747, I got to cover Europe's major airports, South America and Hawii, and fly what, at the time, was the world's longest scheduled airline flight from New York to Rio, 12 1/2 hours.

L-1011
After Braniff's second bankruptcy, I was on the street for 6 months drawing a whole $150/wk, whether I needed it or not. I had to sell my new Firebird to make mortgage payments and put food on the table. Saudia was the only job offering I had, so I went to Saudi Arabia for 6 years, arriving just a month ahead of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait. Some of my class went home. I stayed and got to spend a few nights with my gas mask in the hotel basement during Scud attacks at Riyadh. Most of the Tri-Stars were parked during Desert Storm. When you park a happy airliner in the desert for six weeks, you frequently get an unhappy airliner. Seals dry up, dust gets into the electronics and etc. Just after Desert Storm, I had a V1 abort on take-off from Jeddah, followed a couple of weeks later with a right engine failure at lift-off from Jeddah. I still have a hand full of medal to remember the event. The flying was fun and I liked my crew members which were from 51 different countries. My flights covered Europe, Africa, the Middle East and Asia as far East as India, though most were in country. Maintenance was very good, and the people I worked for were excellent. Saudi Arabia ATC was excellent and populated mostly by Americans courtesy of Ronald Reagan. I stayed until my 60th birthday, and then went to Sri Lanka where I could fly as captain until age 62. After a couple of months in Sri Lanka, I decided there were worse things than being retired. While at Air Lanka I did get to operate East to Singapore. I never got to close the gap from Singapore to Hawaii.

In 34 years there was more, some of which I'm too embarrassed to relate, but for the most part, it was all fun and I'd do it again in a minute. There were other airplanes, flight and ground instructing, five airplanes owned, kids I taught to fly, Mustangs and helicopters. Along the way, I started a very successful video store and bought a small offic building. I traded wives and lost the video store to the ex. I still have the office bulding and have a graduate degree in toilet cleaning and lawn care. I designed my home and was the general contractor who built it exactly as I drew it. Life goes on.

Al

leon99 · Feb 12, 2004 07:32 PM

#15 source
Anything exciting ever happen?

leon99:+

Steven Adler · Feb 13, 2004 10:38 AM

#26 source
>
>Boeing 727
>I flew this bird about 9000 hours, nearly all captain.

>After Braniff's second bankruptcy,
>
Braniff II I worked line MX in MCI. Did you fly the 27 for Braniff? Man I miss that ol Plane. My favorite as far as MX goes. I always took one old engine mount nut from each engine change I did at Love Field. I still have a shoe box full!
Steven Adler

Tools · Feb 12, 2004 11:12 PM

#19 source
LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-04 AT 11:15 PM (CDT)
 
Hey Kirk,

"The only question is... will you be inside sitting in a seat or not?"

Is it really a question now? Even if I didn't want to, have you left me any other option? That contraption holds on to your waist, right? Doesn't matter if you knees give out...

Had a couple landings in BAD wx at the boat (guess what the minimums are? trick question, aren't any) where after the landing my knees were shaking SO BAD I didn't know if I could safely taxi the jet. You know, without running someone over or sucking them down a intake or something. ALMOST asked the NFO in the right seat to taxi (two pilot seats, but we flew the jet with only one pilot, the other guy was like goose in Top Gun, but he had flight controls).

So yeah, I'd give it a try!

Tools

BTW, have that dazed look down pat...

Mike

cwmcmillin · Feb 13, 2004 12:25 AM

#20 source
You guys said it all! I'll add I got to fly as Flight Engineer with my Dad as Captain on a TWA L-1011 trip.

Chris McMillin

Iskandar Taib · Feb 13, 2004 06:29 AM

#21 source
What ever happened to all those L-1011s? Not too many DC-10s around anymore, last I looked, too. Not compared to the 747s.

Tools · Feb 13, 2004 07:37 AM

#22 source
Delta was the last of the majors flying the L-1011. The last one left two years ago next Aug. Many of those were what we called PUDs. Had been owned by Pan Am, United and Delta. Still flown by ATA and other similar carriers. Sun has some DC-10's still I think. Many of Delta's L-1011s also went to Africa. Neat plane.

Tools

Mike

WINGWALK · Feb 13, 2004 08:15 AM

#23 source
Mike,

I'd say it's a pretty good bet that most everyone in their flying, models to jets, have had a landing that left them with their knees weak. It would be nice to have someone there to say "You have the aircraft" when the stuff hits the fan, but it never seems to work that way for me.

Your seat is secure as well as the stand on the upper wing. You just have to get from the seat to the top while in the air. Oh, and there is no saftey line to use during that climb to the top wing!

I have the same dazed look on my face too. It's from trying to figure out how to work my computer most of the time.


Kirk

Steven Adler · Feb 13, 2004 10:31 AM

#25 source
>What's wrong with Airbus?
They Suck!
No Really they do! I had a breif encounter with them @ Braniff II and they scare the hell out of me. Besides that the do cut wood faster than a logger from the Pacific North West.

If it aint a Boeing I aint Going!
Steven Adler

Howard Rush · Feb 13, 2004 01:52 PM

#27 source
Well and eloquently put.

dirtydan · Feb 13, 2004 03:30 PM

#28 source
>>What's wrong with Airbus?

I am posting this merely to demonstrate to Iskandar that I saw it, did not react violently to it, know he is baiting us.

Plus any reasonable, comprehensive answer would take much too long to write. Even for me.

Dan