Pukey Profiles...

While we in CL Stunt seem to be pretty well covered when it comes to the Big Three (OTS, Classic and PA), simple profile models seem to be viewed as trash by a great many of us. Oh sure, I know they are popular and all that, lots of 'em built and being built.

But we rarely seem to see anyone really bragging on their latest profile, the exception being those making a beginning in CL Stunt. And even they are looking forward to the Real Deal, a full-fuselage model. As you simply can't be serious, or fly in a serious manner, if all you've got is some ragged out, oil-soaked profile which shakes its nose like a dog fresh out of water.

I understand this. Until a few months ago I agreed with this point of view.

It was then that I happened upon an ARF Flite Streak or two, threw an O.S. 25FP on one and went flying.

This model and engine combination didn't "come together" automatically or even over several flying sessions. But after I got a small warp out of it, settled on a decent prop, ran down a better tank, I kept thinking about a certain SIG Skyray fitted with an O.S. 20FP.

A model owned by Brett Buck. And which I had heard just about enough to last me for many years.

No stupid, stinking, shaking, booger-covered profile--with a 20 for God's sake!--could possibly be that good. Not for a Stunt Star!

I'm thinking this is still the way many of you view profiles: Nice, but not nearly good enough for prime time.

Tell ya what, you're wrong. But the path to a Killer Profile, I believe you will find, has few options.

Example: Both Brett and I keep telling all concerned that the APC 9-4 is **the prop** for both the 20FP and 25FP. To no good effect from what I can tell on this site. In some cases (DesignMan) there seems to be an intentional plot to try every single prop out there. Except the APC 9-4.

If Brett wants to chime in, fine. And I hope he does. But for me I am flying an ARF Flite Streak which has been upgraded some, mostly in the area of control system hardware.

As noted, O.S. 25FP for power. Tend to think the 20FP might be better, have now--thanks to Mike Conner--scored a couple swap meet-sourced 20s. (Of the few regrets I have in Stunt, I once won a new 20FP in Salem, Oregon, immediately tossed it--what use have **I**, an Expert PA flier, got for a 20?--to Jerry Eichten and his kid, only to a few months later regret it.)

My 25 and the spiffed-up, converted from RC, 20s are all stock. No extra head shims, no grinding on the internals. You are advised to take seriously the cautions given.

Tank: GRW 3.25-ounce chicken hopper. Yeah, it's too big, but short-filling the tank still works. And this tank delivers superb runs.

Fuel: Lots of fuels work fine, I use either SIG 10% "Champion" or SIG 10% All-castor.

Lines: 60s, centerline to centerline, .015 diameter for contest work, prefer .012s.

Venturi: Stock.

NVA: O.S., mounted in venturi. Remotes and other lash-ups may be okay.

Prop: Pay attention, please! **APC 9-4**. Don't be afraid to try others; but suggested prop simply must be the benchmark. Don't you be going off the res on me here...

Once you get all the right stuff together, you will be amazed. The power delivery of a nice 20FP or 25FP--with the correct prop--is nothing short of amazing. Smooth and always "there," they just howl around not caring which direction they are going, never doing anything other than acting as if there is an electric motor plugged in the nose.

While Brett has a rather amazing contest score to quote in his case for the SIG Skyray/O.S. 20FP combination, the bar is substantially lower for Da Dirt.

And I'll tell ya what it is, not to brag or feed my huge ego, simply as confirmation that a combination which appears to be so basic and simple that it cannot possibly score well can do just that.

We were at the 2003 Skyraiders Roundup. P-40 was on the menu. But I was flying Classic, P-40 entries had been commingled with that event, no way was I going to fly P-40 in the first round. Second round I completely hosed the take-off, shredded a prop. I was now into my third attempt, jumped the take-off so there was no chance of going nose-down at release.

Put up a 447.

No appearance points. Precious few take-off points. No practice with that model on that day. Two, maybe three, flights on that model during previous week.

And it seemed so easy. My Oriental is pretty good, I like it, have flown it a lot. But the bottom-feeder ARF with a too-small motor works.

To the point where a lot of you, clear on up to a great many Experts and local heroes might be exceedingly surprised to see how few points are gained with 61s, 65s, four-strokes, pumps, tuned pipes, huge airplanes and so on. No, I mean *really* surprised...

Whoa! Feels great to get that off my chest. We will now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-04 AT 05:09 PM (CDT)
 
I like were you are headed personally. I'm kinda funny about my planes, I like full bodied rc fighters and dislike rc profiles, but I Love control line profiles.

Something I might have missed and will reread, what size is the venturi in the O.S. 25? And are you using the same in the .20 and .25? I have both that need to be converted. The plane I have is a Brodak Messerschmitt that I'm going to try to build over the summer, would the .25 be good for this? I have a .40fp I've been using on a Sig Mustang, and to me it seems like it would be overkill for the Brodak kit, and I've been thinking along the lines of the .25, what do you think? The only other engine I have available is a Stallion .35, and I'd rather use the O.S. so I can use my "rc" fuel. I also have plans to scratch build a Midwest 35 size P-51, would this be a better choice for these engines?

>I like were you are headed personally. I'm kinda funny
>about my planes, I like full bodied rc fighters and dislike
>rc profiles, but I Love control line profiles.
>
>Something I might have missed and will reread, what size is
>the venturi in the O.S. 25? And are you using the same in
>the .20 and .25?

Brett says the stock venturi--for either 20 or 25--is .257 and he has measured one a lot more recently than I have.

>The plane I have is a Brodak Messerschmitt that I'm going to
>try to build over the summer, would the .25 be good for
>this?

Sorry, I am not familiar with this kit.

>The only other engine I have available is a
>Stallion .35, and I'd rather use the O.S. so I can use my
>"rc" fuel.

Hard to imagine a K&B Stallion being superior to either an O.S. 40FP or 25FP.

In any case, I wish to make it clear that I have never used any of the "Kool-Aid" fuels in any CL Stunt motor. You may well get away with this, but definitely should first establish a baseline with which to compare later on. Both of the fuel blends I mentioned will cause no problems.

>I also have plans to scratch build a Midwest 35
>size P-51, would this be a better choice for these engines?

I don't know.

It may have helped if I had mentioned this more directly instead of obliquely stating there are few options when building the Killer Profile. I know what I've got, and while I have never seen Brett's model in action, more is known by me about it than I ever thought would be desirable.

Here's the deal: There is nothing magic about the O.S. 20FP or 25FP. They are just low-cost, plain-bearing engines produced and sold in huge quantities, mostly to RC wankers who are just starting out.

There is nothing magic about the SIG Skyray or the ARF Flite Streak. They are both proven designs, and in general they won't turn on ya, eating your lunch.

The Cool Thing I am talking about only happens when combining the otherwise unremarkable 20FP/25FP engines with either the plain-Jane Skyray or the lazy man's special.

There may be other CT combos out there that I do not know about. But as so little has been done with models like this, the database is kinda small. I prefer to stick with known quantities for the time being.

Dirt, buddy, ya gotta stop doing this! I mean, making sense. And espousing positions many (including me) are likely to agree with. Uuhhh! It's unnatural!

What I mean, is, I am in total agreement, not that that means anything to anyone. A year ago at Christmas, my flying buddy sold me a nice OS 25FP. AFAIK, it's box-stock. I have no idea what size the venturi is (I don't own a micrometer), but I do know I use an air filter over the venturi. Last season I put this engine on a box-stock Ukey 40, and flew with it all season. I had more fun, and learned more, than I had ever before. I had a blast! Now I'm no stunt pilot (yet), but I never had a worried moment with this setup, as far as power goes. Lots of power. I could do fearless wingovers, consecutive loops, lazy eights, and never had a heart-stopping "I think I can" moment due to lack of power.

As for profiles in general, here in Canada we have a special contest category called "MAAC Profile" - you need a profile to compete. It's the standard PA pattern, otherwise. I have to say, I'm building a Fancher Twister right now, because I think it's one of the coolest-looking planes around. A well-built profile is nothing to sneeze at, and it's amazing just how sophisticated they can get - I'm not even scratching the surface yet!

>
>Here's the deal: There is nothing magic about the O.S. 20FP
>or 25FP.

Nothing magic, no. They are just fantastic fun!

>There is nothing magic about the SIG Skyray or the ARF Flite
>Streak. They are both proven designs, and in general they
>won't turn on ya, eating your lunch.
>

Add the Ukey 40 to this list (or the Ukey 35, too, but I haven't flown it)

>The Cool Thing I am talking about only happens when
>combining the otherwise unremarkable 20FP/25FP engines with
>either the plain-Jane Skyray or the lazy man's special.
>

>There may be other CT combos out there that I do not know
>about. But as so little has been done with models like this,
>the database is kinda small. I prefer to stick with known
>quantities for the time being.

Try a Ukey!

Tim

LAST EDITED ON Feb-12-04 AT 07:46 PM (CDT)
 
>Dirt, buddy, ya gotta stop doing this! I mean, making
>sense. And espousing positions many (including me) are
>likely to agree with. Uuhhh! It's unnatural!
>
>What I mean, is, I am in total agreement, not that that
>means anything to anyone. A year ago at Christmas, my
>flying buddy sold me a nice OS 25FP. AFAIK, it's box-stock.
> I have no idea what size the venturi is (Imicrometer), don't own a
>but I do know I use an air filter over the
>venturi. Last season I put this engine on a box-stock Ukey
>40, and flew with it all season. I had more fun, and
>learned more, than I had ever before. I had a blast! Now
>I'm no stunt pilot (yet), but I never had a worried moment
>with this setup, as far as power goes. Lots of power. I
>could do fearless wingovers, consecutive loops, lazy eights,
>and never had a heart-stopping "I think I can" moment due to
>lack of power.
>
>As for profiles in general, here in Canada we have a special
>contest category called "MAAC Profile" - you need a profile
>to compete. It's the standard PA pattern, otherwise. I
>have to say, I'm building a Fancher Twister right now,
>because I think it's one of the coolest-looking planes
>around. A well-built profile is nothing to sneeze at, and
>it's amazing just how sophisticated they can get - I'm not
>even scratching the surface yet!
>
>>
>>Here's the deal: There is nothing magic about the O.S. 20FP
>>or 25FP.
>
>Nothing magic, no. They are just fantastic fun!
>
>>There is nothing magic about the SIG Skyray or the ARF Flite
>>Streak. They are both proven designs, and in general they
>>won't turn on ya, eating your lunch.
>>
>
>Add the Ukey 40 to this list (or the Ukey 35, too, but I
>haven't flown it)
>
>>The Cool Thing I am talking about only happens when
>>combining the otherwise unremarkable 20FP/25FP engines with
>>either the plain-Jane Skyray or the lazy man's special.
>>
>
>>There may be other CT combos out there that I do not know
>>about. But as so little has been done with models like this,
>>the database is kinda small. I prefer to stick with known
>>quantities for the time being.
>
>Try a Ukey!
Tim and all: You don't HAVE to own a micrometer to measure I.D.s, but it certainly adds to your 'portfolio'. Just grab a drill bit that fits into the mouth of your venturi, where you would normally insert an inside Mic, ("mike") and when one fits, DON'T go buy a micrometer to measure the drill bit! Just look at the graduation on the drill index and it will give it in thousandths of an inch. If it is not a PERFECT fit, it is ratio of proportion. For fine adjustment, there is a needle valve...

And for those who have access to Harbor Freight, I was over there on Tuesday of this week and they currently have a caliper on sale for under twelve bucks. I was thinking I should have bought a few and sold them to those people who never seem to have the right tools.

You can get good calipers cheap these days, and they give you inside, outside, and depth measurements calibrated to the thousandths of an inch.

(Do you know the deck height on that "stock" engine you just bought? Do you know the size venturi they actually supplied with it? Do you know what is going to happen to the choke area if you change needle valves? What is the opening on the muffler? How thick is the hamburger portion of a McDonald Hamburger?)

There are many questions you won't have answered until you get your hands on your very own caliper.

LA_Flyer

As one of those new guys everyone jokes about let me throw in my nickel. I don't mind building profiles but I want them to look good! And I don't want the plane to be an additional handicap on my limited (but growing) flying skills. And until I stop hitting the ground, a profile seems to make a lot of sense!

I started with a Lightning Streak and a O.S. 35FP. Took a little trial and error to get everything working. Lot's of willing experts at the field and most of 'em disagree. I figure that's why we have beginners -- to do what the experts tell you so their theories get tested out at least once! Somewhere around flight 50 or so I planted it straight in on a balked inverted exit from the wingover. Wind gust / brain paralysis. Scratch one plane and one engine! The spinner exploded and the venturi was extruded thru the backplate. The crankcase...., well let's just say I learned to bring a broom in the future to sweep up shattered metal engine parts. A definite advantage of profiles is that the fuselage requires a lot less work with the aforementioned broom. One other thing I noted -- if all the little balsa pieces blow away before you can grab 'em then it was too windy to be flying. In the future, I'm thinking of stocking the flight box with smashed balsa parts to test the air before starting the engine. Just grab a handful and throw them into to circle. It may also have some karmic-voodoo effect of appeasing the Pavement God and sparing the plane's next flight from...well, you know. On the positive side, I had just successfully completed two inverted recoveries before the deceleration incident, so I can say I learned how on my first profile....

My second plane is a Super Clown that started out with a Fox .35. I bought into the full nostalgia trip. I started the trimming/tuning exercise getting things slowly worked out. Then in a single bad run the engine practically shook the plane apart. I could see standing waves (mondo amplitude) in the lines. I gave up working on this setup. As a beginner, I don't recommend it since it is too easy to get a setting wrong and lose a plane. (Lot's more break-in and fiberglass the nose?) I switched to a yard sale engine that had been previously crashed by an RC newbie (a pre-FP O.S. .25 with ball bearings) and found it has plenty of umph to haul the S-Clown. This is with the stock muffler and setting everything up for a low rpm run. The last couple of flights used a Master Airscrew 9x6, extra head gaskets, and plenty of caster (approx. 30% oil content by volume) and was even getting a decent, soft break. Unfortunately, my tank setup didn't give me any warning and I ran out of fuel learning how to do overhead eights. I planted it straight in on the pavement. (Catching the recurring theme here?) Got a chance to put that broom to good use! And I learned to bring a large bag (paper is preferred) and dustpan next time 'cause it might be rebuildable! After structural repairs to the wing and recovering (MoneyCote) it is about 1/2 ounce lighter than originally. Strangely, there was no visible damage to the fuselage other than at the motor mount. Don't think that would be true with a built up fuselage! With a little luck I'll get to shoot some paint on it tonight. With double extra luck it'll go on light and even and won't turn out ugly or heavy. Since the surface area of a full fuselage is more than a profile, it gives Joe Painter more ways to make it heavy. (Don't ask me about ugly and heavy paint. That's a painfull part of a different story!) Can't wait to get the painting done and go fly it, wobbly crankshaft and all...!

I've got a profile Oriental half built. Gotta decide on an engine (since the O.S. .35 didn't survive the Streak....) May have to hurry up and finish since I want to fly the Clown soon. And I'm still crashing the primary plane too often to get the backup plane finished.(It occurs to me that the mathmatical definition of a beginner might be: #landings < # takeoffs)

The next small profile I'd like to try next is the Primary Force. I read some good things about it in MA. Simple sounds good, and I heard that it flies well without flaps. I'd like to get my hands on the plans and try it with an LA .25. No luck in contacting Mike....

Gotta learn to build 'em quicker than I crash 'em, 'cause I wanna learn to fly.... This is a mathematical law which can be expressed as:
(dB/dt)/(dC/dt) >> 1
else, you are grounded, dude!

Dave
Curmudgeon in training
From "Profile Purgatory"
Somewhere near Manhattan Beach, Ca

PS - I tried to post a photo of the S-Clown, but I couldn't figure it all out. Bummer! I tried compressing a 1.4 meg .jpg file and never quite got there....

PPS - This is my first post, so I'm hoping the experts are (a) laughing at the foibles herein, and (b) gonna cut me some slack....

Welcome to the forum! I enjoyed your post. Please continue to join in.

fly123,

The best thing you can do until you gain experience and confidence (read not hitting the ground too often) is to find and fly over a grass circle. I started C/L flying (1954) over grass and have always preferred the softer ground in case of trouble. I have lost a few planes to the terra firma, but can truthfully say that I have never destroyed an engine by hitting the ground. Even though I have flown my Green Box Nobler and Ambroid Ares (built in 1967) in competition and over alphalt and concrete circles in the mid 60's, I always find an additional bit of stress in those situations. Train over grass if you can........lot less expense, building time and stress. This may be why I also have accumulated 25 or 30 flyable planes in my shop........I am a slow builder, but still build more than I tear up. Oh, and the engines vastly outnumber the planes. Haven't counted them, but I would estimate some where between 80 and 100...............TD

Da Dirt is right on the money here!!! After flying Bretts Skyray a few times a couple of years back, I thought this to be a perfect set-up for my son. Indeed it was. Not only did the plane fly well enough for him to learn the pattern, it withstood a lot of punishment. I cant remember how many times he planted the thing deep into the ground and only need to put on a new prop and clean out the venturi before getting back into the air again. As far as Bang for the Buck(get it?) Sig Skyray + FP .20 + APC 9-4 = Cheap Fun. I can't remember Brett, which bellcrank?, (size) Which hole, Control horn length and CG location. Larry, NorCal Circle Jerks

>Da Dirt is right on the money here!!! After flying Bretts
>Skyray a few times a couple of years back, I thought this to
>be a perfect set-up for my son. Indeed it was. Not only did
>the plane fly well enough for him to learn the pattern, it
>withstood a lot of punishment. I cant remember how many
>times he planted the thing deep into the ground and only
>need to put on a new prop and clean out the venturi before
>getting back into the air again. As far as Bang for the
>Buck(get it?) Sig Skyray + FP .20 + APC 9-4 = Cheap Fun. I
>can't remember Brett, which bellcrank?, (size) Which hole,
>Control horn length and CG location.

I used the kit control parts - 3" bellcank, large nylon R/C control horn, and pushrod - and I would expect that it was pretty much like it shows on the plans. I would check, except that I can't find the plans. You don't need to have the controls very slow; in fact, I use quite a lot of movement. I seem to recall not having even bushed the leadouts where they go through the crank. It was originally built about 10 years or ago for my work buddies to fly at a picnic, and I figured longevity was not going to be a significant issue. But it's stood the test of time.

I have to say that it really is has been pretty durable once I replaced the wing with balsa parts. The original just shattered the first crash, but the balsa wing is just so light that it flexes a little and springs back. It's been crashed at least 30-40 times with no damage. I think that one day at Golden State, we ran thtough all the 9-4 props in California. One guy crashed it maybe 10 times - but we just dusted it off, put on a new prop, and good to go.

Oops, I have your plans. Larry:*

FWIW Larry, I'm almost done with the Skyray/FP.20 as you recommended. I'm looking forward to using it to compete in Intermediate this season.
Thanks.
Derek Moran

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Dan:

I rest your case.Here's one of the best airplanes I've ever built and certainly one of the most fun to fly.Very little emotional investment.I call it "White Profile".

What, no ink lines, Ron? And an iron piston FP. That *is* an old classic. But that engine will run forever. So fly it, guy, fly it.

>Prop: Pay attention, please! **APC 9-4**. Don't be afraid to
>try others; but suggested prop simply must be the benchmark.
>Don't you be going off the res on me here...
>
>Once you get all the right stuff together, you will be
>amazed. The power delivery of a nice 20FP or 25FP--with the
>correct prop--is nothing short of amazing. Smooth and always
>"there," they just howl around not caring which direction
>they are going, never doing anything other than acting as if
>there is an electric motor plugged in the nose.

I have to add that I have flown the Skyray with other motors, and with conventional motors it flies like a standard trainer - i.e. pretty mediocre. The engine made ALL the difference, and now it is an excellent performer by any standards.

By the way, that 540 score in P-40 was only good for second place - David Fitzgerald beat me with a 547 *with the Skyray, on his first flight*!

best flying plane I EVER had.......this is called the Pizazz.....it is the best flying plane I have ever hung on to........and it is PROFILE...OK it has an OS 46LA on the and is bigger then the skyrays etc..but I have flown a 25 sized profile and that is what I learned to fly on ...there is a place for profiles out there...I am sure you all ( well most ) will agree.......the cheapest way to get flying, and the easiest to repair.....

>I once won a new 20FP in Salem, Oregon, immediately tossed
>it--what use have **I**, an Expert PA flier, got for a
>20?--to Jerry Eichten and his kid, only to a few months
>later regret it.)

A very kind gesture Dan. Matthew has it on his 35 size Ukey he calls the Blue Max. He probably won't give it back. But he'll let you fly it I bet. Maybe you could trade something 10 year olds covet. Anything Gamecube... Yu-Gi-Oh cards... something Saito-ish, perhaps?

Here's a pic of my favorite profile I have. It a slightly modified Twister. Way back in high school (a loooong time ago) I worked for my uncle's crop dusting service, hence the slight modification.

Not at all beeing and expert , i would think that everything else beeing equal, a profile should fly as well as a fullbody fuselage.

Like for example, if i buy another Brodak Cardinal, build it whith a
standard built up fuselage, have the weight and balance etc. as before.
Will it fly better or??

Dan,

In terms of profiles you can't leave out Ted Fancher's Imitation. I have had the privledge to fly a Fancher Imitation recently and fell in love with it. It flies so well that I did some of my best squares ever with it. Since it was a friends plane I did not do the entire patter of course. I getting ready to build a SIG Magnum, even bought a great ST.60 from Heavy Stunt, when another friend gave me a laser-cut Imitation kit. I ordered the foam wings for it and will power it with a Neuman MagnumXL .53. I think Ted did something right with that design...

Olive you keep
on flyn'

This is a little newer design and a little bigger, but flies nice on an LA 40. Another inexpensive, good running motor.

Span 60 in. Area 740 sq.in. Weight 45 oz.

well, I guess not. the board won't upload the picture. Maybe later.

Hey Larry,

Has the CJ flying season started yet? Rex and I are flying every weekend in San Jose when it isn't actually raining. We made one trip to Gilroy but no one else was there. I enjoyed talking and flying with you the one time at the end of last season.

>Tank: GRW 3.25-ounce chicken hopper. Yeah, it's too big, but
>short-filling the tank still works. And this tank delivers
>superb runs.

I got the same results. Tested 5 different tanks (all with uniflo/muffler pressure) and got almost no leanout with the GRW hopper. Next experiment is to try adding an internal "hopper" to a conventional tank--a baffle running fore and aft, as BRISTUNT (is that Brian Eather's signature?) described in a previous thread.

Interestingly, the worst tank of the lot was a plastic bottle (also uniflo/MP) mounted with the wide dimension up and down, per the Skyray plans. Huge rich to lean change, even though the effective "width" of the tank is only a little over an inch. Must have been something bogus in my setup--an air leak maybe.

In general, you guys are getting it. But I still want to be very specific in that my only frames of reference are two: 1) Brett's model, his stated and demonstrated capabilities of same; 2) Dirt's ARF Flite Streak/O.S. 25FP combination.

You can go quite far afield if you wish, and I hope you get good results from every model you own, profile or not. But I will tell you that in the years I been doin' this Stunt stuff I have never seen or experienced the likes of what is being described by Brett, Larry and myself.

Maybe a different perspective is required and I will do it based upon my own experiences, as they cannot be too far removed from many on this forum.

When I started flying CL Stunt much, more seriously than back in my Combat days, all I had to fly was a from-plans Firecat. Fox 35, of course. Stock. Profile tank. Blah, blah, nuttin' special at all. It flew fine. In fact, I rather liked it. Entered it in OTS once, NW Regionals, they booted me, but allowed me to fly and post scores. Having been stiffed in that event, entered Classic--then known as "Nostalgia"--and won. (Weak field that year is my guess; plus McClave was judging.)

A SIG Magnum was next, of a sudden the Firecat was just a load.

What has become known as the "Mutant Magnum," Dixon re-design of Mikey's handiwork, was next and Steve Helmick is still flying it. Quite nice model in all ways.

Then an Impact, preceded by two Smoothies, one Oriental, now another Impact plus a Zilch X for OTS. And a Viking in there someplace.

The point here is that I went up the ladder in equipment, each pretty much better than the last, the old Firecat, its reputation, the reputation of *all profiles* was, in my opinion, that they are all just trash.

Meeting the needs of a great many, agreed. Serving a certain purpose in the overall scheme of things, ditto.

But total trash--for my personal needs, please remember--when it comes time to put up a decent pattern. There are exceptions to this rule, I will admit that. But the exceptions are very much few and far between.

Which ought explain why it was such a shock to see an ARF Flite Streak and a mundane little motor like the 25FP come together in such a spectacular (that may be the wrong choice in wording, but it's not far off) manner, with so little effort.

The overall message here is that equipment with which you can do much more than just stay away from the ground, indeed get a real close look at what the PA experts are trying to achieve with their piped two-strokes or pond-scum four-stroke motors in the way power is delivered to the airframe is not only available, it's available in swap meets and plain ol' hobby shops all across the country.

But it is a two-part message in that I personally am only aware of a very narrow range of options when it comes to setting up this Cool Thing profile. Go off the res with 35s, 40s, converted this or that, adding flaps, going to big wings, you're on your own and I hope it is a pleasant journey.

Incidentally, I am using the stock O.S. muffler on both the 25 and 20FPs. Yeah, they are heavy, but the engines run really well with the stockers in place. I would much rather--and have--add lead to the tail over bolting on any non-O.E.M. muffler. In one motor I am even using the little muffler insert; quiets it even more, motor runs just slightly better.

There is a combination I have not mentioned and that is Mikey's (Mike Pratt) Primary Force with the 25LA. I have not flown one, but Bob Smiley was using one last year, and I would agree that it shows a lot of potential. Especially as there were (are?) a couple problems with Bob's model, first being the motor. It might be fine, but in thinking back it seemed a little soft and less turbine-like compared to the 20/25FP. Internal modifications are probably not in order, but feeding it 20% or 25% nitro fuel would be on my list. Bob's model had a two-piece fuselage, it was kinda bent with the left side of the stab high, and that can't be good. Finally, at the end of last year Bob had (quickly) progressed to the point where he was simply asking the model/engine combination to deliver more than it was capable of giving, mostly by banging corners real hard.

Tim McTigue,

No offense, but the Ukey series was designed and first kitted in the NW, I am well aware of their capabilities, and they certainly have a place in CL. You're halfway there with the powerplant, but the Ukey does not qualify for a Cool Thing listing of deadly profile combinations.

Jerry Eichten,

As the episode with you, your son and myself has allowed me to appear a kind-hearted and decent human being, you better believe I want to fly your kid's model. And he can keep the 20FP.

Norvald,

The point you're missing is that profiles and full-body models cannot be made such that everything else is equal, regardless of weights and so on. That's what makes ordinary profiles so lacking.

Martini Kid,

I will take your word--and Ted's rep--on the performance of your Imitation. You are, however, straining your credibility severely when claiming Heavy Stunt sold you an ST60. I have known Bruce to buy a great many ST60s, but never to sell one.

Phil Cartier,

I do not doubt your claim. Your kits are excellent, the designs well researched and developed. But I'm not convinced you're seeing, or even have seen, what is being described here.

Dan,
Thanks for the nice comments on the P Force. This simple little model is a blast to fly and simple to trim. If Bob is having to hit the cornes hard, then he needs to move the C.G. rearwerd about a 1/4" and narrow the handle spacing. The turn rate goes way up at that C.G. and narrow handle helps it grove. My current set up on the P Force is 25FP, Tongue muffler, 9-1/5" x 4" Bolly prop, and Sig 15% champion. Runs like a watch and pops a smooth corner that drops in a grove making the corner flat and sharp. Looks way cool too!

"But I'm not convinced you're seeing, or even have seen, what is being described here."

Not sure what you are talking about Dirt. A light, nicely trimmed profile will fly a heck of a good pattern in a good pilot's hands. GMA came up with an excellent design. It also does a world of good for a less skilled flyer, since they can put up a flight with a good plane and not worry about trashing 200 hrs. worth of work. But keep in mind, the pilot has a lot to do with it.

Just re-read Wild Bill's Barecat650 article. He told a very interesting tale about flying the plane, after Bob died, and getting into deep trouble just from a little bit of overcontrolling and being slightly ham-handed on the handle. No matter how well-trimmed the plane is, guys with a lot of handle time forget how easy it is to get even a good plane into a bad situation when you do something you haven't done before. I've seen several guys javelin ARF Flitestreaks set up just like yours- nice flying planes. But the wrong control at the wrong time, maybe a jerk of the handle the wrong way, doesn't take much to put a plane in the ground.

Nice thing about a foam plane like the Gotcha Streak is that a crash that turns an ARF Flitestreak into toothpicks often won't even break the wing on the GS. 5 minutes with some CA or epoxy and your'er back in the air.

Hey Kim, no we havent done much flying since the Clovis meet. I'm awful whimpy when it comes to rain and cold weather. Jim, Scott and Mark call me almost every week. They seem brave the elements better than I. Where have you guys been flying in San Jose? I'm in the PAMPA directory, give me a call and well all hook up and do some flyin. You do belong to PAMPA, dont you?!?!?! Larry, NorCal Circle Jerks

>I'm in the PAMPA directory, give me
>a call and well all hook up and do some flyin.

Will do.

>You do belong
>to PAMPA, dont you?!?!?! Larry, NorCal Circle Jerks

Lucky 747717.

>
>Hey Larry,
>
>Has the CJ flying season started yet? Rex and I are flying
>every weekend in San Jose when it isn't actually raining.
>We made one trip to Gilroy but no one else was there. I
>enjoyed talking and flying with you the one time at the end
>of last season.
>
>
Kim,
You are welcome to come up to Bill Osborne Field. There is alway action all weekend from 9 to 12 noon. We have one member from Campbell who comes up every week. Take the Hegenberger exit to Oakland Airport, turn right at the Hilton onto Doolittle. it about 2mi on the right.

Address is on my web page: www.aeromaniacs.com

And by the way, I have an ARF Flightstreak with an OS20FP on it now. It's an awesome combination!

Thanks, Heman. I'll see you there one of these weeks soon.

I love it!

Cavalier, AT .36, Orange silk, My fun-est toy.
I rest MY case!

That is one really cool-lookin' plane!

Tim

"But I'm not convinced you're seeing, or even have seen, what is being described here."
Not sure what you are talking about Dirt. A light, nicely trimmed profile will fly a heck of a good pattern in a good pilot's hands. GMA came up with an excellent design. It also does a world of good for a less skilled flyer, since they can put up a flight with a good plane and not worry about trashing 200 hrs. worth of work. But keep in mind, the pilot has a lot to do with it.

Just re-read Wild Bill's Barecat650 article. He told a very interesting tale about flying the plane, after Bob died, and getting into deep trouble just from a little bit of overcontrolling and being slightly ham-handed on the handle. No matter how well-trimmed the plane is, guys with a lot of handle time forget how easy it is to get even a good plane into a bad situation when you do something you haven't done before. I've seen several guys javelin ARF Flitestreaks set up just like yours- nice flying planes. But the wrong control at the wrong time, maybe a jerk of the handle the wrong way, doesn't take much to put a plane in the ground.

Nice thing about a foam plane like the Gotcha Streak is that a crash that turns an ARF Flitestreak into toothpicks often won't even break the wing on the GS. 5 minutes with some CA or epoxy and your'er back in the air.

Phil C

Phil,

You have correctly identified part of the problem: A whole bunch of people don't understand what I am talking about, simply because they have never seen it and/or experienced it. Understandable, as I think Brett's Cool Thing combo was an accident. And I copied the primary elements of what he learned and told me about. I'll bet Mikey had some outside influences at play when he came up with the Primary Force/25FP or 25LA combination, although I don't pretend to know what they were or their origin.

I do know Bob Smiley told me that after seeing Mikey fly his own Primary Force, there was no question as to what his next model would be, and I got to see the Smiley-produced P-Force fly quite a lot last year.

What I do know is that had I had my hands on either of my current ARF Flite Streaks, one with a 25FP, the other with a 20FP, back when first beginning to take CL Stunt a lot more seriously, I not only would have moved up faster in skill level, some equipment choices would not have been made. Or rejected after the fact.

I understand what you are saying in reference to material gleaned from Wild Bill's article. Unfortunately, you and he have made the mistake of thinking there is some value in comparing Bill's experiences and trimming preferences to those of Baron. Very much apples 'n oranges.

Any flier who has planted an ARF Flite Streak set up like mine should instead be flying your Gotcha Streak or a Ukey or something similar. No argument there as what is needed is something that flies decently while also being easy to repair.

I am talking about the next step, where the equipment chosen starts to become a much larger factor in how quickly and how effectively a beginning Stunt flier will be progressing over the next few years.

Mentioned in another thread, I cannot imagine a Beginner in PA getting better contest or practice results in flying any flapped model than he would get with a 25FP-powered ARF Flite Streak. In Intermediate PA the balance is shifted but only marginally; certainly not to the point where a flapped model would be a good move.

When looking at Advanced, we have quite the contingent of folk in this class here in the NW. I am pretty sure all of them fly flapped models of various types, this including some of the profile designs which "everybody knows" to be good 'uns.

There is no doubt in my mind that if each of our Advanced fliers practiced for three flying sessions with models exactly like either of my ARF Flite Streaks, or Brett's model, or a nicely done Primary Force, at a minimum 50% will have posted their best flights, their highest scores at the very next contest. A couple I can think of might well break into the 500s, of a sudden be knocking on the door to Expert.

(Randy. You look active today, what do you think would happen if we gave Rich McConnell my ARF Flite Streak and a couple weeks to play with it? No appearance points, of course, but look at the scores he puts up with the, ahem, unique equipment seen over the past few years.)

Still, this is all comparison testing with no standard. So I'll be the standard. If I should go to a typical NW contest and place equal emphasis on all four CL Stunt events (OTS, Classic, P-40 and PA) we might see, putting forth the same effort toward all during practice--and I have never done so, always establish priorities--what would be the result at the end of the day?

OTS is off the res, has no place here.

In Classic I can generally get into the 500s without a big battle, am disappointed if not.

In Expert PA I am generally comfortably into the 500s, no problem.

With the ARF Flite Streak--no appearance points, remember--480 to 490 would not be out of the question at all, especially as I have already done a 447 with no same-day practice, little practice the week prior, and a jumper take-off.

Further, were I to build a Primary Force, power it as suggested, prop it ditto, get familiar with it over a couple week's time, anything less than 500 points would surprise me quite a lot.

There are very, very few profile model/powerplant combinations out there which can meet these standards of performance, I don't care how much fun they might be to fly, how utilitarian they might be, how far above normal it's-only-a-profile standards they might be.

Soil,

You mean my 10X4 3 Blade Eather CF Prop won't work on my TT Pro .25??

>Soil,
>
>You mean my 10X4 3 Blade Eather CF Prop won't work on my TT
>Pro .25??
>
>Jim Pollock

Correct. I'm not even certain the APC 9-4 is correct. It is worth a try, however.

And your choice of model, Jim?

Dan,

The Pro .25 is going on my Pukey Twister III modification.