Speed Limit Combat question

My understanding is that the rules for the speed limit (80 mph) combat are not formalized anywhere (is that true?), but I'd like to know whether there is a requirement to have the engine tethered to the control system (bellcrank axle) using a steel cable, like in F2D?

Almost any safety rule similar to the cable tether one is always a good idea anyway because even if a particular club hasn't required it, you have anticipated those that will. And you're being more conscious of the potential of injury to officials, pit men, and any spectators.

Basically, the various versions, other than the freaky stuff created in the far NE area, typically apply an existing scoring system with the engine limit raised to 40's (not at the Nats), and any airframe design limit originally included in any rules (the AMA Slow Combat rules had once had a "fuselage rule" that ended up being ignored - I don't think that part of the rules were ever changed officially).

"Any plane, any engine up to a 40, any fuel system, 60' braided steel lines, and no flying faster than a specified limit." That's the basic premise, at least.

.

Kiwi

>And you're being more conscious of the potential of injury
>to officials, pit men, and any spectators.

Kiwi,
I agree that any safety measure is always a good idea - but I just can't think of a case where the engine has a potential to get loose, while I'm still connected to the bellcrank. I'm using F2D-style machined aluminum mounts and a one-piece hardwood center rib (Meizhlik-style plane). Putting a steel cable tether seems to be kinda redundant, since I've never seen an engine fly-away. I've seen complete plane cut-aways, though, but then the bellcrank tether is useless - making fuel shutoffs more important. I understand that the shutoffs are not required in Speed Limit?
Also, I didn't quite understand your remark about .40 engines not being allowed at the Nats SL combat? If true, what's the engine limit at the Nats?

Thanks-

>Also, I didn't quite understand your remark about .40 engines not being allowed at the Nats SL combat? If true, what's the engine limit at the Nats?

Thanks-

What do ya'll think about .46 displacement engine in local/regional meets? Some specify .40 max. Others are silent. The 46 LA works pretty well on larger foamies but it is quite a bit more mass out on the end of the lines.

hey Mike, get to some more combat contests and you will see everything, including an F2D losing the motor and center block. Also, the motor mount screws coming loose and the mounts and motor flying off, or just the motor flying off. Same in any of the other events.

Shutoffs aren't required per AMA rules if you use a 75 mph speed limit. For some reason this exception has generated a lot of ill feeling. But the reasoning was that people had been flying Fox 35 planes in combat since it began and at Fox 35 speeds there had never been a significant problem with people getting hurt from a flyaway. Plus, all of the shutoffs require the plane to be designed to use a particular one, for the most part, so you couldn't just go out and have a pickup combat match without adding a shutoff.

I'd dearly love to see a 1 oz. gizmo that bolted near the motor and could sense when the lines lost contact with the pilot, and shut off the motor. It'll happen when we all convert to electric.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-04 AT 01:07 PM (CDT)
 
The limit on engines used in the (unofficial) Speed Limit event when it was flown at the Nats was the same as AMA Fast and AMA Slow - a 36, unless I've been misinformed by folks on the Combat-L eMail Club (if you are interested in any type combat, be it Half-A, SL, F2D, or Fast, join that Club).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/combat-l/?yguid=90575949

And tethers are part of the F2D setups that I see at contests (I've not been a fan of flying in the FAI event, or even "Texas 15 Combat", except I support my kid and my friends in the pits or as a timer - so I THINK tethers are required), if you are using that style nose for SL, what is the objection? This is only the simplest & easiest (and it's practically weightless) of the various safety measures.

.

Kiwi

so if you are using that style nose
>for SL, what is the objection? This is only the simplest &
>easiest (and practically weightless) of the various safety
>measures.

Well, the objection was that being the lazy bum that I am, I didn't want to spend a perfectly good evening building up two dozen of these tethers

But you guys have convinced me, and I will go ahead and do that.

Thanks everyone!

I saw a slow combat match at Wichita 2 years ago where there was major collision. One plane landed with the other plane's bellcank wrapped around the engine. The other plane crashed into the pits. Thankfully it missed any people or planes.

The 80mph combat rules are formalized in the Pacific Northwest. I can provide a copy of the rules if you want them. Basically, the Northwest rules for 80mph combat are precisely the same as AMA combat except that there is a speed limit (6.43 seconds for two laps), and the engines allowed are up to .40 displacement.
That means, whatever it says in the AMA rulebook except for the speed limit and engine displacement is the rule for Northwest 80, including the kill. Thus, the shutoffs and engine safety cables are required.
It's a great event, our most popular combat event in the Northwest.
--jt

John,
thanks for the offer, but here in Midwest the rules for speed limit seem to be a little different (75 mph limit, no shutoffs required).
This is very confusing, since I would think that the most popular combat event should have one set of rules, and the rules should be published and accessible to anyone. Even the event itself isn't an official AMA event!

>thanks for the offer, but here in Midwest the rules for
>speed limit seem to be a little different (75 mph limit, no
>shutoffs required).
>This is very confusing, since I would think that the most
>popular combat event should have one set of rules, and the
>rules should be published and accessible to anyone. Even the
>event itself isn't an official AMA event!

They are published: there are several versions by several people in several places.
But getting agreement around the country seems difficult.
I'm not sure why.

Mike, various regions run the events and rules that are popular for their areas. If they don't, nobody comes to the contest. It's as pure and simple as that. If you want the locals to show, you run what they want.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-04 AT 03:31 PM (CDT)
 
>John,
>thanks for the offer, but here in Midwest the rules for
>speed limit seem to be a little different (75 mph limit, no
>shutoffs required).
>This is very confusing, since I would think that the most
>popular combat event should have one set of rules, and the
>rules should be published and accessible to anyone. Even the
>event itself isn't an official AMA event!

It's likely that the main reason this "event" is so popular is because it has no hard and fast set of "national" rules. Part of the fun for some of us is adapting to the various local rules. Topeka, Wichita, OKC, and Tulsa all have different rules. About the only thing that remains the same is .40 max on any frame, 75mph and 60' x.018 lines.

The nice thing is that even though the rules vary from place to place, there is little that would prevent someone from flying anywhere. Speed limit is 75 and you're used to 80? Choke the venturi down a little, or use a different prop. Need a shutoff? Install one. Normally use .40s and you want to fly at the Nats? Install an old .36 for the contest.

Safety wires are pretty much a standard rule everywhere, though, same as handle safety thongs.

Safety wires not required in Topeka and Wichita last I knew, but not a bad idea.

Safety wires not required in Topeka and Wichita last I knew, but not a bad idea.
From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
AMA 6733

Actually Clean, it was in the Topeka flyer for sure. I am acutely aware of this as I showed up at the first contest with no restraining wires and spotted the requirement in the flyer. No one ever looked at the airplanes however or otherwise said anything so I went ahead and flew.

Restraints are not a bad idea and only a minor inconvenience assuming you build them into the airplane. Huge pain if you don't.

About the only thing that remains the same is .40 max on any frame, 75mph and 60' x.018 lines

Actually, Rick if you look closely at the blue engines on at least one guy's combat stuff at OKC as well as Wichita and Tulsa you will see that it says "46".
We have not specified a displacement in our past rules and probably won't this year(Jason is writing the rules last I heard). I don't recall if the .40 max was actually expressed in the past years Tulsa and Wichita flyers. If not, it would probsably be a good idea to do so.
Personally, I see no problem with .40 max and no real problem with the .46 either for that matter.

The only rule I remember is 75mph, fly whatever you got.

we handle it by specifically allowing sport 40's. That is to rule out a q500 engine like a Nelson on a 800 inch plane.

Believe me, if we put in national rules for speed limit combat, other than what is in the rulebook, which is essentially fast combat with a speed limit and that is only a backdoor approach, you would soon see some really tremendous special purpose planes. Think F2D performance on a 60 inch 25 oz. airplane. Bigger is better, since the main limitation is the lines. The bigger the plane the less the lines affect it as long as nothing else intrudes.

>we handle it by specifically allowing sport 40's. That is
>to rule out a q500 engine like a Nelson on a 800 inch plane.
>
>Believe me, if we put in national rules for speed limit
>combat, other than what is in the rulebook, which is
>essentially fast combat with a speed limit and that is only
>a backdoor approach, you would soon see some really
>tremendous special purpose planes. Think F2D performance on
>a 60 inch 25 oz. airplane. Bigger is better, since the main
>limitation is the lines. The bigger the plane the less the
>lines affect it as long as nothing else intrudes.

Wow Phil, You are right on...When Barry Baxter first proposed a rules change defining 80mph Combat, he specified displacement limited to .36cu" and a wing area limit of 600 sq"; to prevent the super specific High performance possible from 800-900sq" ships powered with Super Snotty Racing .40's. If I were really serious about Speed Limit Combat, I would build and fly that monsterous kind of ship......But I'm not.....and never will be that kind of serious about Speed Limit...It is plenty fun the way it's generally being flown now... Tony

LAST EDITED ON Feb-26-04 AT 01:53 PM (CDT)
 
>About the only thing that remains the same is .40 max on any
>frame, 75mph and 60' x.018 lines
>
>Actually, Rick if you look closely at the blue engines on at
>least one guy's combat stuff at OKC as well as Wichita and
>Tulsa you will see that it says "46".
>We have not specified a displacement in our past rules and
>probably won't this year(Jason is writing the rules last I
>heard). I don't recall if the .40 max was actually expressed
>in the past years Tulsa and Wichita flyers. If not, it would
>probsably be a good idea to do so.
>Personally, I see no problem with .40 max and no real
>problem with the .46 either for that matter.

Jim,
I know who you're talking about and at Tulsa last year it did come up.
You wern't there because of your trip to Alaska. I decided to let it slide since no one objected. The .40 max rule is posted on Tulsa's website under club rules. It's been that way for past two years.

http://www.tulsacl.com/Rules.html

Glad to see you back on line and posting. I've missed your comments.

Hey Rick:
Still no home computer with on line but I am teaching again and the schools have scores of unused computers laying around, all with high speed internet connections. Remember, the schools are broke, right?

I have hopes the entrant in question will come up with some .40 or smaller engines but I have my doubts. I imagine most will just continue to put their heads in the sand and let the guy fly-he's going nowhere close to 75 with the .46 and an 11-4 according to my watch and his airplanes are not really oversize.