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Silk Covering Techniques

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Alan Hahn · Aug 05, 2000 06:40 PM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-00 AT 06:42 PM (EST)

Does anyone have some good references with respect to covering a plane with silk. I don't want to use Plastic (Mono, Ultra, or Mica) this time, and I am just to hamhanded to have a silkspan covering to survive for any length of time. However the last time I tried to use silk (20+years ago!), I had to remove it since it looked so lousy. Some specific questions are

1) Is there a grain, like silkspan? My silk comes in 36" by 10 yards (from Thai Silks--thanks Isky).
2) I am aware of trying to avoid getting dope through to the underside. I have read one account (Bill Skipper in RC Report a few years ago) using a Knox Gelatin mixture to "paint" on first (after attaching to airframe though), just to close off most of the "holes". Does anyone else do this?
3) How are wingtips done. I'm pretty good with silkspan, but not sure about silk.
4) I assume I can dye the silk, just like I have dyed silkspan (Thanks Currel). True?

Please feel free to add any other hints or references.

Thanks,

Alan

ps, I read with interest DJ's post below, just want to know some more!

The Kiwi · Aug 05, 2000 06:58 PM

#1 source
>Does anyone have some good references with respect
>to covering a plane with silk. I don't want to use
>Plastic (Mono, Ultra, or Mica) this time, and I am
>just to hamhanded to have a silkspan covering to
>survive for any length of time. However the last time
>I tried to use silk (20+years ago!), I had to remove
>it since it looked so lousy. Some specific questions
>are:
>1) Is there a grain, like silkspan? My silk comes in
>36" by 10 yards (from Thai Silks--thanks Isky).

Yes, it's parallel to the "selvage" edge. It'll be on either side of that 36" width.

>2) I am aware of trying to avoid getting dope through
>to the underside. I have read one account (Bill Skipper
>in RC Report a few years ago) using a Knox Gelatin
>mixture to "paint" on first (after attaching to
>airframe though), just to close off most of the
>"holes". Does anyone else do this?

I've never heard of it before.

>3) How are wingtips done.

Not unlike you'd do with a plastic, actually, save that you use T-pins and/or thinner instead of a sealing iron.

>4) I assume I can dye the silk, just like I have dyed
>silkspan (Thanks Currel). True?

I think silk takes RIT dyes better than silkspan does.
>
>Please feel free to add any other hints or references.
>
I'm not sure that I qualify as amoung the world's experts about silk coverings. I've made some planes with silk on them that I probably should've peel back off of!


Kiwi


Jim T. · Aug 05, 2000 07:53 PM

#2 source
You should be able to see the grain if you hold the silk up against the light.

I've read of the geletin method, but havn't tried it. One method that works is to start out with dope thinned 75% thinner to 25% dope and brush it on gently. Keep doing this until you don't see any dope going through holes then go to thicker dope.

Silk goes around curves wonderfully well, much better than silkspan. You can cover a whole fuselage with one piece of silk and only have to cut a few gores. Do put the silk on wet and keep it wet until you get it on perfectly. Don't pull it and distort the weave, however.

No experience with dye.

Jim

Have fun

LNeumann · Aug 06, 2000 02:55 AM

#3 source
I haven't used silk since the "good ol' days" and much preferred nylon at the time to silk. But one thing I learned, when filling the pores on silk (or nylon) on open bays as the wing is to brush from the underside. Hold the wing level and brush the first coats of clear on from the underside. This way, if any puddles form, they will form on the bottom or outside of the covering and you can brush over them again to remove them. Use relatively thick and fast dope at first (Brodak would be an excellent choice--something that wasn't available to us then) and wait until it gets pretty sticky before turning it over to do the other side. Once all the pores are filled, you can wetsand and then use thin coats to spray whatever other finish you plan to use.

With silk you MUST use plasticised dope. If you don't, with the first "whoops" the entire covering job will shatter taking a portion of the airframe with it.

Now, with the plasticised dopes that are available to us today, you do not nearly need to be so afraid of silkspan, either. I cannot recall when the last time was that we punched a hole in silkspan just by handling it. We have crashed a plane--nearly straight in--with the ribs hollowed out to about 3/16 all around, and, although the wing folded in the middle, the rest of the wing remained intact. In the "good ol' days" it would have been totally shattered, totally destroyed. With the plasticised dopes you can "thump" the center of a wing panel with your finger and you won't hurt it. And you only need medium silkspan to do this. It is lighter and takes less dope than the heavier stuff, and it finishes lighter than the light stuff as it takes less dope to fill the pores. A good silk covering can get extremely heavy when you have to fill the thickness of the weave. Matthew will add typically 6 to 7 ounces starting with a bare airframe and covering it, doping it, clearing it, adding inklines, more clear, and then buffing it out. His planes have moved progressively towards the front in appearance point judging the last few years, landing in the front row at this year's nats (Thank you judges). This plane had over 200 flights on it before it reached the Nats. Last year's plane was too new. It had only 7 patterns on it before coming to the Nats. But he pulled it out again for a contest earlier this year at Muncie by which time it had over 400 flights on it. One of the judges asked if it was a new plane. Matthew replied "it was last years, but it was young yet since it had only a little over 400 flights" and the judge asked what you may ask, how did he keep it from getting dings and dents. It is simply a matter of how you handle it--very carefully. You can do a silkspan finish that is light, durable, and long lasting. Don't be afraid to try it.

Leonard Neumann

Jim Thomerson · Aug 06, 2000 11:11 PM

#5 source
Leonard, I found your post very interesting. Covering with tissue, silkspan, or silk, using unplasticized dope, adds tremendous rigidity to the structure. Are you giving up this added rigidity with the use of plasticized dope? I've used plasticized dope when dealing with light structure that would warp from excessive shrinking. Are you putting the silkspan on wet and feeling that it is shrunk plenty? It sounds to me like you are going to a lot of work to create an inferior version of monocoat. What you are saying is so strange to me that I'm having difficulty thinking about it. Please elaborate.

Jim

LNeumann · Aug 07, 2000 10:01 AM

#7 source
Well, for one thing we are applying it wet (moist, damp, not soaked). Whether you dip it in water or spray it with water, lay it on a towel to absorb most of the excess water back out. Apply a couple of coats of clear dope to the structure, top and bottom, where you are going to apply the cover, and then lay the moist silkspan over the structure to be covered. Smooth it as best as you can and then start doping at the edges and corners with thinned dope. Some will use thinner only, but I think thinned dope works better. Doope only the edges of the framework at this point and work it out to the edges and corners. If you need to trim the covering a bit at the edges, do so, but a little wrap around the edges won't hurt. Do the bottom first, then the top so the last seam will be on the bottom. Give it another coat if need be to insure that the edges around the framework are getting filled. Let this dry completely and the silkspan should be drum tight without any dope on it. Now apply several thinned coats of dope top and bottom by spraying from the bottom so it doesn't puddle through. These could also be thicker coats brushed on, but make sure you brush from the bottom. After a couple of coats it should be sealed all around and after a light sanding it should be ready to the color and final coats. AeroGloss dope is all high taughtening and needs to have something like Dave Brown's Flex-All added to it. SIG is all plasticised except for one type of clear which they leave this way for those who insist that the first coats must use the taughtening kind. Brodak does't say anything about his dope, but it appears to be plasticised. We have noticed that there is a springiness to the finish but it is not spongy like using the iron on finishes. The strength should still be in the structure. Even the plasticised finish will add strength to the final structure, but it should not be the cause of either the strength or warping. Doine this way there will always be a little "give" to the covering and it will be far easier to prevent the dents, dings, and punctures that accompany so many other ships.

Leonard Neumann

Jim T. · Aug 07, 2000 12:25 PM

#8 source
Leonard, Thanks for the clarification. I'd say with either silk or silkspan that you need to keep it continually moist whilst applying it and it needs to go on perfect, not just pretty good. Not getting it on nice is where you get warps because it tightens unevenly while drying.

If you don't want an overlap, like on a trailing edge, you can sand the edge with wet or dry sand paper and silkspan or tissue will cut nicely. Doesn't work too good on silk. If you are overlapping silkspan, tear the edges rather than cutting them. It will tear nicely along the grain, not so nice across it. This will make it easier to hide the edges when sanding.

I used to use Aerogloss all the time, but I've given up on it in recent days. Even with the Dave Brown plasticizer, it is still cracking on me.

Jim Thomerson

LNeumann · Aug 07, 2000 01:21 PM

#9 source
Some people will actually cut the leading edge and trailing edge to get a butt joint and have no overlap, but that, also, leads to the possibility of the material pulling away and leaving a gap. I, therefore, prefer some overlap. Your comment about tearing the edges works great for making patches. It is like on a rubber powered plane where you wind the motor until it breaks and then back off two turns, when sanding the material, you sand until you go through and then back off on the sanding. (??) OK, so it doesn't work. But when you do sand through--as on the ribs which is the easiest place to sand too much, a patch that has the edges torn will go over it and blend in real well with a couple more coats of dope.

Leonard Neumann

Alan Hahn · Aug 07, 2000 03:44 PM

#10 source
I know this is probably a bone headed question, but what do you mean by spraying (or brushing) from the bottom? I can't quite picture what you mean.

Alan

LNeumann · Aug 07, 2000 05:14 PM

#11 source
Have you ever slept in a tent while it was raining outside? Most of the water runs off, but in some places will start to leak. Once the leak starts there seems to be no stopping it. If you spray your covering--silk especially, but it happens to silkspan, too--from the top down, which may seem to be the "normal" way to do it, if any dope soaks through it will "puddle" underneath (inside the wing) and make a large hard spot there that will ruin the cover. If, on the other hand, you hold the plane level, but high and spray up on the wing from the underside, then any drips and sags will form on the outside. These can be wiped off or even sanded off after they are dry.

After you spray one side and let the dope set, you can turn the wing over, raise it high again, and spray the otherside from the bottom up. Same result--any drips or sags will form on the outside of the wing and can, again, be wiped off or sanded if they become dry before you catch them.

Leonard Neumann

Alan Hahn · Aug 08, 2000 08:17 AM

#12 source
Len,
Ok I got it. It makes a lot of sense.

Alan

Brett Buck · Aug 06, 2000 10:04 AM

#4 source
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-00 AT 10:09 AM (EST)

I am far from an expert on the subject, but I and many others have found that the cheapo foam rubber disposable paint brushes have less tendency to push the dope through the pores. This allows it to seal much more quickly.

Brett

Alan Hahn · Aug 07, 2000 08:17 AM

#6 source
Just to let you know that I am soaking up all this info. Thanks a lot.

Alan

Steve Helmick · Sep 18, 2000 09:49 PM

#13 source
LAST EDITED ON Sep-18-00 AT 09:50 PM (EST)

It's been years, but I did use the Knox Geletin trick on silk, when I lived at Edwards AFB...very dry, and was worried about dope drying too fast. The Geletin worked very well, and filled the weave very nicly. The only thing is that you can apply the silk with the geletin mix, but keep it off the open bays until you have a coat of dope on it. A couple of coats of dope, and a couple of geletin/water, it should take a light sanding and a few
more coats of dope to get a slick finish. Try steel wool, instead
of sandpaper. The sponge brushes work, but a plain sponge does also. You might also consider "PolySpan", a polyester version of
silkspan, SIG "Koverall", a woven polyester. Both heat shrink but
can be applied with dope, "Stix-it", "Balsarite", etc. There are a lot of alternatives now. I like the heat shrink coverings, but
want to dope it on and paint it. Tough stuff, and good weights.
Steve Helmick