New Brodak engines

I gather that there are a few new Brokak engines being released, a .049, a .15 and a .25. There is mention of them over at RC Universe.

The .049 looks like a Norvel clone (see below), but the others look like scaled down Brodak .40's.

Anyone have more details?

kool

LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-04 AT 00:16 AM (CDT)
 
It looks more like a CS than a Norvel. Too bad they didn't design it to take a Nelson plug.

>It looks more like a CS than a Norvel. Too bad they didn't
>design it to take a Nelson plug.

CS is the one who is making the .049. The 40, and smaller clones to come, are being made in Russia.

Looks to me like it takes a standard glow plug, more better for the average flyer. Can't get Nelson plugs at the local hobby shop.

Bob - it is a standard plug. The Nelson is, as you stated, a bit harder to find and I'm not sure what advantage it would offer. I've been running the engine you see in the picture for a few months on different fuels (10 to 20% nitro, 22% 50/50 lube) and props. It has the same plug as when I started testing.
Bob Z

Looks to me like it takes a standard glow plug, more better for the average flyer. Can't get Nelson plugs at the local hobby shop.

Bob,

Nor can you buy horsepower at the local shop. But that's what the Nelson plugs deliver.

It is my view, having fiddled with more ways of making a standard 1/4-32 glow plug work in a 1/2A engine than I will freely admit, that even sport-type 1/2A motors suffer a considerable loss of power if saddled with the substandard arrangement seen here.

I'll pleased to be wrong, but the after-market guys will jump on this.

I know I'll get blasted for this but why can't he have these made here in the USA?

Bill

LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-04 AT 04:35 PM (CDT)
 
If they were made in the US they would be $300 be ridiculously overpowered......and probably come with 10,000 extras, so you could change it to suit......but that STILL wouldn't be enough for some people.

You think YOU are going to get blasted!!!!! ha haa.......I'M ONLY JOKING GUYS. Dont hurt me!!!!

LAST EDITED ON Mar-16-04 AT 04:40 PM (CDT)
 
>I know I'll get blasted for this but why can't he have these
>made here in the USA?

Hi Bill,
We can't make 'em as cheap to the tolerances they can. Economics.
Bill <><

>I know I'll get blasted for this but why can't he have these
>made here in the USA?

Three letters: EPA

anything to do with metal work and especially metal plating (chroming) gets special attention from the EPA. Thats completely aside from the labor costs involved making anything here. Modelers are cheap almost by definition, and I bet the howls would arise if the thing was USA made but cost an arm and a leg.

Think of the ARF deals Brodak and Top Flite have. And recall, maybe a year ago on this very forum several intense discussions arose on what an ARF would cost if somebody made it here. I think the Asian made TF and Brodak ARFs are about a hundred bucks cheaper a unit than was postulated here. And frankly, I think if the ARF Nobler was 200 bucks, nobody would buy it.

At any rate, I got off track. A big issue with engine manufacture here is the plating issue and the EPA. If you could outsource the plating somehow and not lose too much money, maybe it could be doable. I think any sort of serious in house plating production is gonna run into some environmental costs that may make it unattractive.

I have to say somehow I intrinsically dislike the concept of everything being made overseas, but I would count myself among those moaning about the high prices of stuff, so I should shut up and go enjoy my ARF Cardinal and LA-46.....

Anybody looked at the pricing for Cox TD 049s lately?

Points made about plating, machine work and the EPA are valid.

We seem to hear a lot of the latest buzzword, "outsourcing." A great many opinions out there as to why it is happening, but when I ask, "When are we going to stop actively chasing companies away from the U.S.?" and then cite examples, EPA regulations being just one of many, there follows quite a lot of silence.

Dirt: You are right about the plugs in a 1/2A.

With Wen Macs, all of the various versions with the separate plug have little power.

At the end, Testors McCoy owned them, and put on a screw head, a la Cox. The rest of the engine was virtually unchanged.

This made a world of difference. They run about the same as a one port Cox reed engine, like a Babe Bee. Or maybe a bit better.

>but when I ask, "When are we going to stop actively chasing
>companies away from the U.S.?" and then cite examples, EPA
>regulations being just one of many, there follows quite a
>lot of silence.

I think if you ask those among us who have traveled through eastern Europe where decades of manufacturing sans EPA oversight have taken place, you'd be happy to live with the benefits of some degree of environmental control. Chernobyl may have provided some decent jobs but who'd want to live there now? Some former neighbors of mine taught in the Shanghai area for several years but were SO glad to get back to an environment where they could expect to live a normal human lifespan. The Chinese were setting up ore smelters in their own yards.

Even for you folks around the Pac NW - especially in Pierce County. For years the USAF dumped jet fuel into the ground around McChord AFB. The folks who live in neighboring Lakewood seem to be contracting much higher rates of unpleasant ailments during their mid years. The folks living in the area near the old (and now defunct and leveled) Tacoma ASARCO smelter aren't able to grow vegetables. Well, they can grow them but once consumed they start doing ugly things to your innards and present a definite hazard to any future offspring. There *are* limits to how much arsenic and heavy metals one can ingest.

Here in my neck of the woods, the northern Twin Cities, MN area, we have an expansive but little used Army Ammunition Plant where heavy munitions were manufactured which is in the process of being turned back over to the local municipality. Commerical/residential utilization will be limited because (again) of all the contaminated soil, vegetation and water tables.

You may not like regulations such as EPA but try going without any. There *has* to be a happy medium somewhere (as I sit here eating my microwaved popcorn).

And all the while Uncle Sugar is firing off DU rounds into the landscape all over the place.
The EPA is almost as worthless as mudflaps on a sledgehammer.

Jake

>>I know I'll get blasted for this but why can't he have these
>>made here in the USA?
>
>Three letters: EPA
>
>anything to do with metal work and especially metal plating
>(chroming) gets special attention from the EPA. Thats
>completely aside from the labor costs involved making
>anything here. Modelers are cheap almost by definition, and
>I bet the howls would arise if the thing was USA made but
>cost an arm and a leg.
>
>
>Think of the ARF deals Brodak and Top Flite have. And
>recall, maybe a year ago on this very forum several intense
>discussions arose on what an ARF would cost if somebody made
>it here. I think the Asian made TF and Brodak ARFs are
>about a hundred bucks cheaper a unit than was postulated
>here. And frankly, I think if the ARF Nobler was 200 bucks,
>nobody would buy it.
>
>At any rate, I got off track. A big issue with engine
>manufacture here is the plating issue and the EPA. If you
>could outsource the plating somehow and not lose too much
>money, maybe it could be doable. I think any sort of
>serious in house plating production is gonna run into some
>environmental costs that may make it unattractive.
>
>I have to say somehow I intrinsically dislike the concept of
>everything being made overseas, but I would count myself
>among those moaning about the high prices of stuff, so I
>should shut up and go enjoy my ARF Cardinal and LA-46.....
>
>
>Steve

Just wondering outloud here, but how does FOX make their engines?
Does FOX contract their parts out of this country or at home here.

Thanks,

Don't know about their bigger stuff, but Fox makes all of its smaller engines in a small shop in Fort Smith. A large part of the company's business, however, is machining for other companies.

Fox used to have their cylinders chromed here in Tulsa, Ok.

They had their cranks heat treated here (different shop) as well.

I do not know where they get those services now.

hothandle

>Can't get Nelson plugs at the local hobby shop.
>
>Nor can you buy horsepower at the local shop. But that's
>what the Nelson plugs deliver.

They're also more durable and they cost less.
And they're made in the US to boot.

LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-04 AT 05:16 PM (CDT) by LNeumann (admin)
 
The tapered sealing Nelson type plugs always give a performance increase in small engines, the increase diminishes the larger the engine until it is almost negligable in a 90 size performance motor.

Will leave plenty of scope for tuning, I just hope the Chinese can hold some kind of quality, it would be much nicer if there was an up to date Cox in the $70-$80 area made to old Cox QC standards ie very high.

What is the performance of the new .049 in term of RPM?

by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

The one thing that hasn't been mentioned more then once and that by our host is that the new Brodak 049 is being made by CS. That is a really disturbing thing to me as they have a long reputation as making some of the worst motors to ever go out of China.I'd heard that there had been an upgrade in some of the equipment in their factory and I certainly hope that this is so.
I agree that any 049 that uses a short plug almost always seems to be a slower motor then any of the glowhead types.Most of the older type motors at least used a 6/3 prop and inspite of their lower output did quite well. The Cox Baby Bee origionally recommended a 6/3 also.
I had a chance to see the early Brodak 049 run 2 years ago and while it wasn't a powerhouse it did run steadily.
Dennis

I bought a 40 size Stunt engine a few years ago from Whiz Marketing. I beleive is was made in Shanghai, China. That was the worst engine I have seen. When you are breaking in the engine on the bench and you hear sound of metal grinding away, well do I need to say more?

My take on the thing is it is being sold as a "Sport Engine" If it ends up an entry level engine that takes minimal break in, starts and runs reliably and will fly something like a Baby Clown with no problem it will fulfill it's design intentions. Parts should be easy to get and not having to special order plugs would be a plus.

So OK it won't be a power house but neither is a Fox 35..

>So OK it won't be a power house but neither is a Fox 35.

And that, my friend, is a very low blow. Designman said I might need a cup, but he was referring to my semi-broken ARF FS fuselage, not this site.

LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-04 AT 02:33 PM (CDT)
 
>>So OK it won't be a power house but neither is a Fox 35.
>
>And that, my friend, is a very low blow. Designman said I
>might need a cup, but he was referring to my semi-broken ARF
>FS fuselage, not this site.
>
>Dan
>

by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

Dan, don't be so sensitive. A good Fox 35 on a good day can generate enough power to get out of it's own way. Dennis

Now Dan ol buddy, you know that Fox comment wasn't directed at you, I am not swift enough to be able to play word games with masters such as yourself.

>Now Dan ol buddy, you know that Fox comment wasn't directed
>at you, I am not swift enough to be able to play word games
>with masters such as yourself.

Something tells me I'm being toyed with. Self-deprecating comments such as yours always put me on high alert.

Especially when the person speaking/writing is already known to hardly be a goober...

I wished business was good, my Skylark was finished and I was at VSC. Instead, business is lousy, the Skylark still needs more clear and I am sitting here in my office pecking nonsense on the internet

LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-04 AT 03:11 PM (CDT)
 
>My take on the thing is it is being sold as a "Sport Engine"
>If it ends up an entry level engine that takes minimal break
>in, starts and runs reliably and will fly something like a
>Baby Clown with no problem it will fulfill it's design
>intentions. Parts should be easy to get and not having to
>special order plugs would be a plus.
>
>So OK it won't be a power house but neither is a Fox 35..

Bob, You have made a very accurate take on this engine.It was
concieved and designed as a "Beginner" engine by Mr Gau of then C.S.
Dave Braun and I went to a Meeting with Mr Gau, Mrs Gau and
James Zchou and his wife. Mrs Gau is also an EE and has designed most
of the rechargable Foam FF stuff you see in the stores throughout
the U.S. Mr Gau nixed Dave and my ideas. We wanted reed valve
induction, and peak .13bhp. with a useful rpm top at approx 17-18k.
He wanted a front shaft intake, long stroke engine that peaked at
about 12k. We told him that was too low an rpm figure for control line flying.
He disagreed, we got a free lunch and said goodbye.
About a year later James shows up at my door with a "Beginner " .049
engine to test..That was over five years ago.
Tony

Incredible!!! I did not realize that you were involved. This is really all new to me.
So, does it appear that the new engine is the same one you worked on back then?
Although I did not tach it, I saw a report alluding to speeds in the 15,000 RPM range with a 6-3 prop.
Bob

by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.

I have 2 CS oddities both 074 beginner series. One the crankshaft never had the hole drilled for the fuel air induction. The other one dosn't have the ports milled in it, I thought that it was a roll your own thing.Oh did I mention that the crankcases look like they have terminal leprosy with aluminum paint to hide it. Dennis

>Incredible!!! I did not realize that you were involved. This
>is really all new to me.
>So, does it appear that the new engine is the same one you
>worked on back then?
>Although I did not tach it, I saw a report alluding to
>speeds in the 15,000 RPM range with a 6-3 prop.
>Bob

Hi Bob, It's probably better to say I wasn't involved! I just got
the engine for after the fact testing. If You check the RAPTORZ
website, you'll find three versions: .049,.061 and a .074. I see
that Dennis in his recent post has two .074's, both are quality
basket cases. I have no idea how the current batch will be...hopefully
okay as your engine seems to be. 15k is what I was getting with a Cox
black 6x3. That was with 10% nitro; and my Hobbyshack Tach. You will
need to tach your engine with your fuel and props to have any real
relevance. I know 15-20% nitro will give better results on my test
sample because of the too ample headspace on my engine. I used 10%
because we figured a beginner was more likely to use that brew. All
this engine really needs to be is easy starting,tough, reliable
and have ample
power for sport flying. I'll attempt to post a pic; this may take a
while.. I'm new to digital cameras......Oh Yes..It looks like the same
Genera to me. Tony

I had 2 CS Oliver Tiger replicas. One is very good the other would not run. I sent it back. I have heard that, at least in the old CS Co., they could not have a QC dept because then you might have to tell someone that they did bad work. Well excuse me, I can't now nor will I ever be able to build a stunt plane like a number of those that post here. I can build a larger number of adequate planes in a short time, think combat, but the skills of the top folks is just beyond me. Could I learn yea probably, others have, but then my combat planes never looked like Howard's either.

I have been told, by a fairly authoratative source, the major reason the eastern European countries finally successfully rebeled against Soviet domination was their recognition that their environments were being so badly contaminated that they simply had no hope for the future unless the situation was changed. Note that they did not have EPA's.

>I have been told, by a fairly authoratative source, the
>major reason the eastern European countries finally
>successfully rebeled against Soviet domination was their
>recognition that their environments were being so badly
>contaminated that they simply had no hope for the future
>unless the situation was changed. Note that they did not
>have EPA's.
>
>Jim

Jim,

As someone who spent years going back and forth to first the Soviet Union and then to Russia, your source has absolutely no credibility with me. He may well have an agenda, that's fine, whether it is hidden or not.

But to say environmental concerns were the major reason for Eastern Bloc people to slip the chains of communism doesn't pass the laugh test.