VSC 2K4 Return of the Kid

One of the most delightful aspects of last year's VSC was the kid, AKA Scott Danford, who had the presence of mind to get his airplane covered in autographs, a sign of respect and apprecation of the pilots who lived the classic era of stunt and those who are keeping it alive now. To see someone that young have an understanding of the event was, well, wonderful.

Bright, engaged, courteous, diligent. Great example of what we all remember as being the point in some sense--building model airplanes builds better kids. Anyone who can muster the patience to do the job right, the comprehension of the principles, the chemistry, physics, woodwork, artisanship and what not to build the airframe and then master the mechanics of getting a good run out of a good power train is headed somewhere in life. I didn't know who he was at the time I wrote the post, but the pictures told the story. I've been curious all year long about the fate of the Junior Flight Streak kit and if the Kid would be back.

Well he was.

And it's a classic good news, bad news tale.

Not an ARF Sitting in a corner of the courtyard was a flawless hand made full size Flight Streak with a modern .25 on it. Nicely done airframe, light, straight, no warps, good taunt finish with enough clear to fill the weave of the fabric and no more, with a classic Flite Streak scheme in deep, dark blue and solid red. I suspected it might be the work of the Kid when I first saw it.

Later, when I checked, it balanced a bit forward of the spar -a tad noseheavy from the plans I remember, but not much, certainly. The way you want it to start. Little examples of patience and craftsmanship were everywhere. The ply nose doublers had been beveled where they flow out onto the fuselage, which reduces the concentration of stress at that point. Small fillets made a graceful transition from wing to fuselage. There were a couple of dings in the covering--after all this is a flying model, not a museum piece. But they had been elegantly patched.

This was a plane build by someone who cared about detail and yet was not afraid to use it for what it was meant for-to fly.

Great Streak Sure enough, when Tools (his dad, Mike Danford) introduced himself at the annual Stuka Stunt Forum User's Group VSC Class Photo I found out that Scott had brought a Flight Streak to replace the heirloom Flying Clown from last year.

I talked Scott into posing for a shot and got the rundown on the airplane.

"It's pretty stable", he offered, with that air of offhand confidence of a youngster who has a bunch of experience in the matter at hand, "but it will turn real tight. I really like the way it handles."

Turns out Scott is a Kid with a Plan.

There's a baby Flight Streak kit in the baggage back to Atlanta, set to complement the Junior and full sized Streaks he already has going. The idea that puts a glint in Scott's eye is to build a complete size collection of the Flight Streak design, from a Baby-Baby .010 powered job up to the Combat Streak. Knowing what I've seen of him thus far, I have no doubt he'll do it. He's already got the engine for the .010 version (anyone know where there are plans or a kit?), and therein lies the bad news part, which I hate to have to get to.

Tools is a copilot on 737's for Delta, hanging on to the bottom rung of the seniority list--the kind of place where you don't normally get your first route bid choice for the month. Makes for a certain iffyness to scheduling the rest of one's life. There was an earlier thread about making the entry deadline but Mike sent his entry fee in and made plans to attend.

However, upon arrival in Tucson--having flown stand-by from Atlanta and already being on-site with a hotel room, a model and friend whom he had talked into attending--Tools was told he could not fly in the contest due to his pre-registration not being 'pre' enough, and handed his entry fee back.

I have not heard all of both sides of the story but on the face of it, this violates the spirt of the event. Not to mention being counter productive to growth. Running a tight ship is one thing, but chasing off folks with dedication to make that much of a trip an annual event is another. Particularly when a bright young man like Scott is taking it all in.

What, after all, is the point to try to participate when you run up against bureaucracy of that ilk? The entry fee was sent in advance. The contestants had shown up, planes in hand. There's no reason I can think of not to figure out a way to make an entry work and let the kid and his dad fly. And there is certainly no reason I want to try to explain to Scott.

He's bright enough to figure it out on his own.

Rather than spend the amount they had budgeted on tickets to the Saturday night banquet, Scott used the money instead to buy a .010 for his baby-baby Flight Streak.

After all, once he gets that one built, he can fly it in the back yard.

And then who would want to come to VSC?

I, for one, would miss him.

When I was told about some a**hole who was bumping people down on the waiting list for the practice circle at one of the previous VSC's it really struck me as ironic that at an event that claims to be for something more than competition would allow this behavior to go unpunished. If it were up to me, the guy who did this would never be allowed to attend the event ever again, period. He would be known as the Pete Rose of CL.

As far as Scott D. not being allowed to fly at the "worlds most fun event" because his entry fee was late, this is the same kind of closemindedness that convinced me to not renew my membership to PAMPA.

Sorry, but if the powers at be think that they have done anything to promote the true spirt of VSC by not allowing a 12 yr. to compete, after going to all the trouble to get there, then they are exactly the kind of people I want to stay away from. Even if these, "follow the rules at all costs" guys are surrounded by all the good guys of the hobby it still stinks.

For those of you about to jump all over me for bad mouthing people who follow the rules, please don't bother. I don't freak out every time a rule is broken, especially if it is an assinine rule to begin with.

"Well Rick there are allot of people that come to the VSC and we can't have everybody waiting to register when they get here."
What a crock of illogical B.S.

First, not everybody is going to wait to register if you give them the opportunity to do so early.

Second, how about a late registration fee? That will surely eliminate a good number of late entries. Considering how tight most CL modelers are it shouldn't have to be much more than a dollar.

Third, there seems to be no shortage of volunteers. How much more work could it possible be to register (at a penalty) 20 or so late entries?

Finally, I don't know the Danford's personally, but I have emailed Mike a time or two and have always read anything he has posted and it wouldn't surprise me if this does NOT sour Mike or his son's attitude about the VSC, they will most likely shrug this off to experience and happily come back next year. The CL community is LUCKY to have people like Mike and his son. They do allot to counter the attitudes of a**holes like me and those "rule enforcers" at the VSC. However could anybody blame the Danfords if they never came back to the VSC? I think not.

This is suppose to be about so much more than competition. Please also note that I'm not saying competition is not suppose to be a part of the VSC. It wouldn't be fun unless some competition was part of the event. I'm just the type of person that will wipe all your atta-boys off the board for just one ahh-sh*t!

I know my opinion on this carries absolutely no weight and means even less to most of you, but like Da Dirt I can rarely keep my mouth shut when something irkes me like this does. So in addition to PAMPA I will now add the VSC to the list of things I will not directly support in any way. Is it going to hurt the event...no.
It appears the event may be on the road to hurting itself plenty with out my help.

Sorry I edited this post for those who have not read it yet. I decided not to get involved in this stuff this year. Those that were at VSC know what happened and had no problems with the outcome.

I apologize to those that were offended by it.

Hi Larry,

Thanks for setting the record straight here.

And you're right, when I was gritching the banquet I was thinking about was a $25 covered plate at the Roadway "tent" out back, so it's not fair to judge what is currently happening, particularly without even being there.

As I said, NEXT YEAR! for VSC.

I hope to see you before then, I'm finally getting the surgery on my foot on April 22, and I plan to recover to walking and driving again this year.

Best regards,

L.

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"Sex is like swimming or riding a bicycle, except that you don't need flippers or pedals".

Foster,
Pay for my trip and vacation time and I'd gladly come out there and do the work for you. I wouldn't mind registering anybody who hadn't met the "critical" pre-registration deadline. I know what hard work is, and it usually doesn't have a thing to do with paperwork. If it's such a daunting task, perhaps you, or whoever, should allow someone that isn't so stressed out do it. The VSC has been around for 15 years so I would think that a system a little more flexible could be in place by now.
I know what it takes to coordinate an event this size and as long as you've got a pair and don't whine like a girl it's only difficult if you make it difficult.

Once again you have totally missed the point (re: closeminded)
And me, being the a**hole that I am, really don't feel any need to explain it to you. Explaining things to my youngest son is enough of a chore without having to deal with someone old enough that they should know the difference between good and bad.

I wasn't stirring the pot, Foster, I have no desire to stir the pot.
If that's what you think then once again you are totally clueless.
THERE IS NO LOGICAL REASON NOT TO LET SOMEONE REGISTER AND FLY the day of the event!
If you, or whomever thinks so, then let somebody else do the "hard" work.

Let me make something clear, I thought it was obvious that I didn't expect anyone to "boycott" the VSC because of my opinion of what happened. I never said anyone from the Cholla Choppers or Larry Foster did me any malice. I was expressing my opinion of what happened. For an event to advertise itself as something that it cleary isn't TOTALLY committed to is WRONG! In my opinion. If I hurt your feelings because registration is your thing at the VSC then all I can say is, good. I think you or who ever is responsible deserves it. The registration process for the VSC is ASSININE.
Maybe you can rent a pair and start doing the right thing.

"I also find it strange that the same person seems to have or cause problems at VSC." Larry Foster

If you are talking about me Foster I've NEVER been to the VSC, if you are talking about Mike Danford...well that says loads about you.

The entries are done by the Phoenix Control Line Club, all the printing and administrative duties are done by Jim Hoffman and Nick Lemak, and then brought down here. A lot of these people come here early to practice and enjoy the event and also the people at the Roadway, a couple days before it starts. Why should they give up their time and vacation days for someone who doesn't respect the rules that are clearly spelled out.

>Well, Rick if you've never been to VSC and have no interest in the event then get your facts straight, before you Post. It really pisses me off that the ones that have never been to a VSC have the majority of the criticism about it.

My facts were staight Foster.
A 12 year old boy was not allowed to compete. that is a FACT.
I think that STINKS. THAT is not a FACT, that is my opinion, which I NOTED.
Regardless of what you think, there was someone bumping people on the practice circles at the VSC. The person who told me this goes to the VSC regularly and it happened to him. I'd believe him long before I'd believe you.

Again I'm glad you're pissed off by someone who's never been to a VSC but chooses to criticize what is obviously wrong. Maybe someone will fix it so Larry doesn't get pissed.

Those are the facts I addressed. Now SPIN away Foster.

> Why should they give up their time and vacation days
>for someone who doesn't respect the rules that are clearly
>spelled out.

maybe because THAT'S THE "SPIRT" OF THE EVENT ???

I'm done with this

There's two sides to every coin and it's good to get the perspective of the other side of this one.

Let's look at both of them at the same time. (Hint, hold the coin on the bridge of your nose between your eyes and then cross your eyes like you did when you were 8. You should see clearly both sides of the coin at the same time--although nothing else will be in comprensible focus)

Clearly volunteer help that leaves a fixed position mail box a week before the event needs to set some kind of deadline. The hard mail entry has to be there for planning purposes and any that arrives after the deadline may not even get picked up until after the volunteer returns. You can't ask a volunteer to drive to Phoenix just to see if the mail arrived for an event we ALL KNOW is going to happen a year in advance.

Clearly someone with an indeterminate schedule or sudden change of events, getting out of the hospital or knowing they won't have to work on a given date can't make a heroic last minute effort to attend and expect to participate. Not if there's a hard shut down of opportunity.

There's enough blame to go back and forth in our example case. If Tools mailed his entry in the blind and did not phone (or email) anyone to let them know it was on the way and ask for a bit of consideration to his schedule, that's a lack of effort on his part--systems don't just work, you have to help make them work. If the sudden appearance of a 'cronic offender' was enough to trigger a lockdown in attitudes, well it would seem better to let one more competitor compete and take steps to insure it doesn't happen again than to deny some well-intentioned participation. But all of that water is under the bridge. Or over the dam. Or whatever it is water does when it goes past. (It's been a while since I've seen any water out here in the desert...)

---

Having identified the problem, let's talk solutions. There are probably several, but one that leaps out at me is an extension of what VSC has needed for some time: a quality website, with a browser based entry form process that would put the entries into a SQL data base in the blink of an eye. The same SQL data base that can be accessed in the blink of another eye from a browser in a hotel room or the local Starbucks, if it gets to that.

At some risk, I must say that VSC needs a really cool website, not only to house the aggegated memories accumulated since the event began in Los Angeles but to offer state ot the art logistical support to the folks that hold it, the people who attend and the many fans who can't. Results could be entered into a permanent record at the end of each day and then be available to those in, say Brunswick, Maine who could follow the progress of the contest as well as those sequestered at the Rodeway Inn.

(I say at some risk, because it usually falls upon those who make these kinds of suggestions to implement them.)

Give the volunteers the tools they need to deal with the contingencies of the attendees and then we can defuse the problem. A state of the art website--like PAMPA is developing--would honor and enable the event. And at the rate technology is developing, it's not a monumental effort to deploy.

In addition to the operations of each year's event, a legacy of the images could have a home. I've gone down three years running and added my small piece of the story to the SSWForum, but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the images that must be around in people's scrapbooks and hard disks. We won't see GMA or Ed Southwick at a VSC again. It would be good to store all of this legacy--which is what the event celebrates--somewhere. As it is, I walk a tightrope between not overutilizing Len's server and giving the snowbound fliers a good look at what I get to see in my limited time at the event. and of the three years of that documentation, one has already been lost to web access.

---

I certainly did not start this thread to instigate a pissing match or slander those running the contest. I've run these things and far bigger ones and know how easy it is for things to fall through the crack. And an after-action debrief--if constructively conducted--makes for a better event next year.

The discussion here has polarized too quickly. The solution is not to boycott VSC (and by some weird association, PAMPA). Nor is it to declare that anyone who has a contingency outside the rules doesn't "respect them". The point is to think about it and consider better solutions. Ty's point that a late arrival could be substituted for a no-show is a good one.

I don't want to take a day of my time dash down to Tucson, grab photos, process them, write copy, grind through the process of formatting and entering the posts only to have the folks who put on the contest think they've gone from Heaven in Christopher Columbus State Park to Hell on Stuka Stunt Web Forum. I want to to contribute both to the legacy of the event and the SSWF and promote both.

Some misconceptions have been jumped to. Tools never used the Kid as an excuse for not managing to get the entry on time. The consideration that the Scott's impression of the event is less than good after seeing all of this go on was mine. Tools' problem is his indeterminate work schedule. Which is easily understandable if you appreciate his position as an airline pilot with a big seniority number in a vascilating market. (Note to Tools: Read 'Fate is the Hunter' on the tyranny of the numbers.)

Jumping into this discussion with a blanket condemnation is not helpful, nor is taking your words and going home on the basis that 'we were right and anyone who was there that agrees with us will tell you so'.

So, can everyone shake hands, be--if not friends--fellow enthusiasts, recognize that a system build on limited resources has not functioned effectively for the needs of some of the contestants who would love to participate but can't pull the trigger until the last minute and sort out a feasable procedure so that anyone who really wants to participate can and those who have to administrate are not forced to turn them down?

Geez.

I sound like Rodney King in the middle of the LA riots.

Cy,
Unbelieveable!!!!!! Man......
Bill <><

Wow. That's pretty friggin cold

"Sorry, but if the powers at be think that they have done anything to promote the true spirt of VSC by not allowing a 12 yr. to compete, after going to all the trouble to get there, then they are exactly the kind of people I want to stay away from. Even if these, "follow the rules at all costs" guys are surrounded by all the good guys of the hobby it still stinks."

To that I'll simply add, "I think I'm gonna puke ..."

When I started contest flying in the '50s, it was ... Fun! Sure, we flew the last combat matches in the near-dark at times, and sometimes the pairings weren't ready until fairly late because we somehow managed to accomodate late entries...

Cy, you picked a good word: Spirit. When we forget that, we often lose our vision...

Two things, Larry.

First, I want to thank, thank, thank, thank, thank YOU! Thanks for posting the photos from VSC, your work is superb. It's always nice to see what a master can do, and you are a master. I hope you realize just how much pleasure you bring to someone like myself, who didn't get to drive the 265 miles from Las Cruces to VSC, again this year!

(Next year I'm going, with a Kismet and a LA .46 in it, if it hare-lips Governor Richarson!).

Second, I do want to comment on this uncharacteristic rigid little anally retentive, bean-counting mentality which decided to exclude a handful of people who didn't pre-register on time. It is unfortunate, indeed.

Rick is justifiably upset by this sort of thing, so am I. But I don't think it is really symptomatic of some major attitude problem within PAMPA. Yes, there are a few people in PAMPA (as in all organizations) who actually have such attitudes (what organization doesn't have a few?). But Rick, please don't tar the entire organization. And don't poke yourself in the eye by excluding yourself from PAMPA over a handful of folks. Take the good (98% of PAMPA) with the bad..

Also, we need to extend a little understanding here. I'm sure the idea was well-intentioned. VSC is the 1st (or 2nd, maybe Brodak is as big or better) largest event of its kind in the world. So, logistics are tough. We really can't have everyone just popping it to register at the last possible moment. But, as suggested, a far better solution would be to have a late registration fee. That will discourage late registration, and yet solve the problem! There's often a graceful, comprising solution, and I think that is it.

Geez, did I say TWO points? OK, here's 2A - I want to express my owe major peeve about VSC - that is the ever increasing costs of the banquet. Why? It reminds me of the realtors, who used to get 6% but now that houses are selling for 2 to 3 times what they were back then, feel like they need a larger PERCENTAGE!

No reason I can see why a meal like the ones I've had (I admit, I simply did not go a couple of times) should cost more than about $15 per person!

Bill Jacklin stopped by to see me on the way to VSC this year. We went to the local steak house, we had a bottle of wine, very nice meal (better than ANY I ever had at a VSC banquet), some completely decadent deserts, even a 20% tip for the service, and it was LESS per person than the VSC banquet this year. Considerably. Yes, I know that we have a whole evening of entertainment and wonderful company. But that is supplied by the PAMPA people (guys like De Hill, making the magnificent special awards and trophies, thank you, De!!). That is not part of a relatively simple meal, which I would pay about $10-$15 for anywhere else.

Yes, again, I realize it is catered and all. I just think it is a rather piss poor value.

That said, I want to acknowledge my friend Bill Jacklin, one of the most interesting and intelligent people I've ever met, and a person who truly appreciates a quality dark beer. I love this man dearly.

Bill Jacklin: thanks for the Arrogant Bastard! Yes, I've been sucking down the others (delicious, with the metallic "tail"), about about one bottle a day, but I'm hoarding the Bastard..

Anyway, I hope the VSC folks will take this minor criticism of mine in the proper spirit. You just need to realize that the VSC banquet prices are a little too high!

Best regards to EVERYONE associated in any way with VSC - it is one of the finest experiences one can have with this hobby. We are so lucky to have it.

Finally, Larry Lowe, thank you again for sharing your fantastic photography and comments.

Next year! Next YEAR! Watch out! Yeeooowwwwww! (<-- Howard Dean yell..) (I'm not promising to fly worth a darn..)

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"The more we do, the more we can do; the more busy we are the more leisure we have." -William Hazlitt

There is a bit more to this story, Tools wasn't able to take his airplanes on the plane with him so he asked if someone could haul the planes to VSC. My old buddies Lloyd Gregory and company from the Eastern Shore were headed for VSC with a trailer full of airplanes. Along the way they stopped and picked up the Flight Streak and Tools Chipmunk.

Tools had made a PVC pipe rack for the airplanes and sadly it came apart on the washboard in Arkansas they call a highway. Nobodies fault just one of those things.... The net result was a couple of holes in the leading edge of Tools Chipmunk. Lloyd and gang stopped here in Oklahoma for a couple of days before continuing on to Tucson. While they were here we fixed the Chipmunk as best we could so it was flyable. Not being sure what kind of paint was on it I just covered the repairs with red vinyl so it didn't look too bad and would allow Tools to fly it at VSC. So not only did he and his son not get to fly, he ended up with a dinged up airplane.

Did Tools' Chipmunk have a Snoopy in the cockpit? There was one at the field Friday afternoon that never made it to the appearance judging.

I notice a patch on the right leading edge.

It's a positive example of the spirt of the hobby that someone would not only haul the airplanes out there for him, but patch them up when they got dinged.

---

There is still a LOT of good things about VSC and I worry a bit about throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If the registration process is so broken that it cannot accomodate someone in Tool's circumstance--who goes to such honest effort to participate, then the registration process needs to be fixed, revamped, re-tooled, whatever.

Boycotting VSC for the rest of time does not accomplish that, it merely weakens the event, which is certainly not the intention of my comments.

I can say that we often don't realize the impact of our actions on the lives of youngsters around us. As an example of not knowing what you are doing to change the direction of a person's life, I was at AT-6/SNJ school at Midland and ended up riding back as far as ABQ with some folks who were going on to California. Among them was a younger pilot who was making a living towing banners up and down the beach in a Stearman. Obviously a passionate aviator of the old school--stick, rudder and radial engine. I asked him what fired his enthusiasm for flight and he regaled me with a tale about going down to Brown Field to see the Thunderbirds perform at an airshow and getting a chance to sit in the cockpit of the T-38 under the watchful eye of a real Thunderbird. How that encounter had lit within him the belief he could become a pilot. I could not help but smile to myself, because I was the airshow director who put the show together and went to considerable effort to get the Thunderbirds on the bill. I never realized until years later the positive effect that decision had on at least one life. I wrote my post so that whoever is in charge of such things will stop and think about the richer implications of being a stickler for procedural detail in what is at heart a community building fly-in for fun.

As for the Kid, I have no doubt he will sort this all out properly and understand the difference between the occasional jerk and a totally flawed system, which the VSC has some of and is not, in that order.

I figure he has the stuff to be a second generation line pilot if he decides to and make a living hauling passengers up to the commercial space station/hotel once he gets his ratings and enough time in the log book. By then, the memory of the dim-wit that would not let him fly on account of paperwork will be nothing but a long stored understanding of what to avoid in life.

>I can say that we often don't realize the impact of our
>actions on the lives of youngsters around us. As an example
>of not knowing what you are doing to change the direction of
>a person's life ...

Cy: Once again, good words. I like best the definition of leadership which calls it "the ability to see the consequences of our words and actions far into the future".

Funny story about "spirit" ... I used to very actively officiate Olympic-style wrestling on the National Championship level. I developed something of a reputation for knowing the rules backwards, forwards and sideways. It was understood year after year at the Minnesota State Championships, for example, that I would be designated as the #1 rules interpreter - even though the National Chairman of Officials was always there.

I was asked many times by people how I could have such an understanding of rules that were so very different from our "scholastic" rules at the time - rules that changed not at the beginning of a new year, or a new season, but on the 13th of whatever if it suited the International Governing Committee.

My first answer was always something like this:

If you understand the "Spirit" of the sport - what it's meant to encourage and discourage - the details become pretty easy.

I would be the last to condemn PAMPA and/or VSC for this, but obviously the people making this decision couldn't see the forest for the trees ...

I am very sad to hear this story!

What were they (the officials) thinking?

I'm guessing the only junior at the event was DQ'd over a petty deadline for pre-registration??

Mike and Scott Danford are friends of mine.. I met them at last years VSC and must say that one is instantly impressed with what a wonderful father and son team they are.I felt their mutual pride in one another and their friendship imediately. You will never find better people in any arena.

If other participants were turned away at the last minute, after extensive travel, it makes this an even greater error on the behalf of the organizers.

Larry's suggestion of a late (higher) registration fee is the perfect solution. With people's work demands and schedules in constant flux these days "events" need to be flexible to survive.

Thinking of early registration as "at a discount" is a much better positive re-inforcer than being punative for "late".

My guess is this preregistration thing was eventually going to blow up and cause some real hard feelings.

What's sad is that it just happened to fall on "The Kid". And, the kid is the future of our sport. I just don't feel like someone did what my Dad called "doing the right thing".

I don't think "That's life" is a good enough answere here. I'd like to see something done to rectify this situation now, and for the future.

Looking forward to some positive discussion here....Hib

Ps... Kudos and Thanks to you Cy for your elequent and thoughtful 1st posting..h

Ever since I first heard about VSC I've been planning to attend. For a whole host of reasons it looks less likely every year.
Maybe I'm the lucky one after all.

It is very sad that something like this was allowed to happen. It shouldn't matter even if he just came from across town to fly. If he has already paid the pre registration fee as indicated I can see no reason not to let them fly. Makes more sense than refunding it does.

>Maybe I'm the lucky one after all.

I don't think so, Dave. It's a great event, and the participants, like Mike and son, are well worth knowing and being with. At least this year I am not suffering withdrawal pains...

>Ever since I first heard about VSC I've been planning to attend.
>For a whole host of reasons it looks less likely every year.
>Maybe I'm the lucky one after all.

Not if you allow a little intramural squabbling across the pond to deny you the chance to spend a week in the warm spring Tucson climate, watching a living museum of the best of several era's of control line stunt, sharing with us a great British model or two from that era and enjoying a dip in the pool.

It just takes more logistical planning than it did before 9-11.

And I recommend you get your entry fee and room reservations in early.

VSC is not to be missed.

It is to be savored

You run into an*l retentive rules quoting types in any organization. This type of thing happened to me many time under the WAM organization when trying to get more kids involved in contest. Someone will always come and say to a kid, “he can fly because he doesn’t have a muffler”. Well, its kind hard to put a muffler on an Cox .049 without killing performance. Or you can’t fly with Dacron line.

I think some of the old guys just don’t like it when someone else is trying to get into the club. These type don’t really care if C/L will died along with them in 20 years.

Kids are the future and we should make any allowance for them!

I am new to the sport. Evenso I have a couple viewpoints for your consideration.

1. Does the Nationals take late registrations?

2. Does the number of contestents at VSC compare in numbers as the nationals?

3. I can sympathize with the officials and paperwork necesary to set up the draws and charts for the contests with registered contestents. That is a lot of work. Is it fair to impose on the VSC officials any more than those officials at the NATS?

4. It appeared to me, from a contestants viewpoint that the event was well organized, well run without any observable hitches. If memory serves me correct; we were informed in advance that only preregistrations would be allowed to compete. There was a cutoff date which was widely anounced and I am aware that there was some leniency given on that part allowing for mailing time up to the previous night of the event.

Before we get too critical we should consider the admistrative effort required and the complaints of others who abide by the procedures as well as the numerous hours of volunteer work necessary to conduct such an event.

From my viewpoint; I say thanks guys and gals who put this thing together. You did one fine job. Perhaps we should make an additional effort to consider some extenuating circumstances such as a young participant to fly.

When I was 15 years old, I wanted to get into outboard boat racing in the Pacific Northwest. I had a Martin 7.5 hp motor and a Dragonfly which was a 9 foot boat with pontoons out the rear. I had a life jacket, safety helmet and a crash throttle and complied with all safety requirements of the sport. Showed up for the race for Class A, ran around the course with everyone else. The drivers complained that my boat did not meet the specs for Class A as it was too short etc. etc. Behind the scenes, a Roy Williams who was a very successful racer with high respect convinced the guys to let me race. The rig was no threat to anyone since it was about 15 mph slower than all competition who were using Mercury Hurricanes. I got lapped by the field twice. But was allowed to participate. THE RESULT. I was devastated but determined to prevail. That winter I saved money, bought the motor and a racing runabout for A Utility and thus began a racing career that lasted about 7 years.

Flexibility can be beneficial.

Bob Smiley

Hey Cy!

THANKS again for the nice story. Sad it's a tradegy rather than a comedy, but well written and picture documented in the usual high quality manner. You spoil us for sure.

Foster,
Sent you an email.

Bob,

THANKS for fixing my plane. The guys seemed really upset about it, which was far worse than what happened to the plane. I really appreciate the effort you put into getting me going (and looking good, which it did). Wasn't for naught, both Alex (12 yrs old) and I got to fly thanks to your efforts. Scott got some flights on his streak as well. We all had fun (well, getting home was an adventure for me, and at this writing is STILL an adventure for Alex and Dave!). Hey Dale, things just ain't like they used to be!

Hib!

Missed you! Well, the late registration thing only disqualified 2 of the 3 youngsters. Alex and Dave Courtney weren't even offered buddy passes by me until after the 11th, my ignorance of what really happened had them doomed from the beginning. To be fair, I'm not considering Josh Condon a youngster 1) he's bigger than me B) he's found GIRLS HAHAHAHAHAHA, HOHOHOHOHO, HEHEHEHE, uh, ask Mike.

Don't know about next year. Didn't know about this year till after the 11th, well, MAYBE there's my answer. Don't think the likes of close minded burrocrats (spelled like they act-ala Gallagher) will have an effect on my decision.

>Hey Cy!
>
>THANKS again for the nice story. Sad it's a tragedy rather
>than a comedy...

I don't want to think of it as a tragedy.

Once again, the photo tells the story.

Great kid holding a great looking airplane with a big smile of pride on his face.

It's a step up from last year, this one's bigger and has a paint scheme.

What I really see is an aviation career a building.

And that's no tragedy.

>
>Flexibility can be beneficial.
>
>Bob Smiley

Well, that pretty much sums up my long-winded point in a concise nutshell.

If I recall correctly there were 67 entries on each circle (2 circles) not counting ignition, just for Old Time Stunt. There were also about 6 that were scratched because they simply did not make it to Tucson. Looking at the premade judges slips, it would have been a very simple and quick move to line out the previous registered name and ink in the late registrant. Same for the score board. About thirty seconds and it was not like they came late on purpose. It was a matter of jobs.
As to getting on a waiting list to fly practice, it's a very good thing I was standing right next to the list, when one joker came up and was about to scratch my name because: One, he didn't know me, and Two, he couldn't pronounce my name. He seemed to think it a big joke, I didn't. He had nothing to do with any local club, etc, just another flyer with an ego problem. I don't know his name, nor do I want to. This happened last year several times also.

Well,

Gee Ty, why didn't you make any official flights in classic then if you were practicing so hard???? Or Ty, maybe he had a patience problem and was undergoing a seige of pit-rage? Hmmm, musta come from an area with a lot of crowded freeways? I wounder where that could be??

This whole thing stinks! What in the world makes it so that pre-entry is to ONLY way to go. For years we operated with on the field entry and still got all the flying done. The paperwork is not impossible on the field , its only inconvienient. I don't know about the CL Nats but we accept late entries on the field at the FF Nats at the event director's discretion. To lockout someone that came so far, with his Jr. son no less is just plain stupid. This isn't some kind of world class operation where you have to qualify and do all the pre-participation crap, its a model airplane contest. Several years ago I attended the FF King Orange and when I got there I found out that my pre-entry had never been recieved. The CD allowed me to enter on the field and waved the late fee. Had he not, I'd have left with the intent never to return again. I wouldn't blame Tools if he snubbed future VSC's and told Scott that "there are plenty of other meets that would welcome us, we'll go there".

Repeat offenders are one thing, but to apply the "letter-of-the-law (rule)" in a situation like this is rediculous!

Like everyone else, I agree that the whole episode of being unable to fly after such a long journy to VSC is tragic! Lets come to a solution so that this won't occurr in the future. I was able to fly at Brodak's last year even though I had just returned from Kazakastan. I did not know when I would be back so I couldn't pre-register. However, for a small entry fee penalty I was able to fly. I also judged so the event received something from me as well. There has to be room for some entry flexibility due circumstances that dictated that pre-entry may not always be possible for some who would like to compete in well attended events. Let's remember the old addage that Pappy Robertson told me when I was a 12 year old, "WHEN THERE'S A WILL, THERE'S A WAY!"

Jim,

I think the solution is a little common sense and some understanding, seems simple enough to me.

This practice was the day before Old Time and there were only five names on the list. Two of them two times each, one after the other, and this "flyer" acted as though it was his private circle. As to classic, Mary had to get back to Huntsville a day earlier than we had planned. Uncle Sam needed her now. So we had to leave early Sat morn. Even on "vacation" she had her "Gomment" issued lap top and was always on line on AH64 business The good news is she is still thinking about retiring in Tucson and taking me with her.

Well, this thread nearly brought me to tears for a number of reasons. The primary one is that "rules" should be enforced equaly.

VSC says no late entry! This is to facilitate the orginazation of the event and I have no problem with that. Enter when you get your entry form. If you can't attend they will refund your money.

If Scott and Tools were not allowed to participate even though they had sent their money and it just wasn't received in time (as I understand this thread). Then that's just too bad: IF THIS RULE IS ENFORCED EQUALY FOR ALL and that's where I started to cry.

I didn't pre-enter! I didn't think I could attend and even wrote in SN that I wouldn't be going this year. However, the situation changed and I did load up and drive 800 (one way) miles to Tuscon. When I got there, I SPECIFICALLY asked the powers that be if I could late enter. I also said that if the "RULE" was hard and fast that was OK with me because I didn't think there should be different rules for different people and would just enjoy myself and not fly.

I was told "Don't worry about it John,'you're a fixture here'"! So I paid my money and was charged a double entry ($30.00 for Classic only) That was allright with me and I know of two other people who also entered late and were allowed to particapate.

Rules are rules. Where I have a problem is when the rules change for different circumstances and different people. I am a low end PA-I pilot and if I didn't write a column for SN, nobody would even know my name outside of Texas and Oklahoma. There's something WRONG with this picture and I hope my keyboard keeps working because of the tears that are falling on it as I write this. CD for 25 years and we ran contests by the book (rules). No exceptions for the well known! I think that's the way it should be.

VSC: Greatest experience of my life and I would urge everyone to attend.

Cholla Choppers: Take my hat off to all the folks who put this together and don't envy the many hours they put in to make this come about.

Personalities: Please don't bust any individual's butt. I have purposely not mentioned any names in this posting because I know how much time and effort it takes to put on a contest of this size.

What breaks my heart is the "rules" (apparently) weren't enforced equaly this year. That makes me sad!

Wow. So let me get this straight...

The newbie was late = no flying

The veteran was late = flying

Sounds like someone deserves an apology (or maybe an OTS legal kit! )

That was the way I was interpeting it too. So, were they tears of joy?

John,

Thanks you for posting this, but forgive me if I sound critical. If you are so upset about the equal application of rules, and you knew that the pre-entry was a "rule" why did you even ask if you could enter on the field in the first place?

Secondly, Pre-entry is not a rule, its a policy, and as far as I'm concerned a dumb one. There are many people like yourself that sometimes aren't able to plan for a meet that simply get turned away. If we can handle late entries at the Nats, then we can handle them at any meet. I still say the discretion has to be involved, if the money was there for a refund, then it would hve been less effort just to add them to the roster than to hold it there for them. AS a CD I like to get pre-entries too, it sure cuts down on paperwork on the field, but there are sometimes extenuating circumstances.

Since this has turned into a "gripe session" maybe it is time to shut it down. I don't mind people discussing the topic, but once again it has degenerated into name calling and hurt feelings.

If there are rules and they are enforced I see nothing wrong with that. I can see that if pre-registration is required, then it should be enforced. I can see problems arising if everyone is allowed to come late and register late at a contest as large as this. And, no, the people running the contest are not obligated to open it for late registration, especially if it has been so noted that a registration deadline will be enforced.

I can also see disappointment in one not being allowed to fly. OK, we are disappointed. But that still does not give license to chew someone out for enforcing the rules.

Now, if you don't like what happened, there is nothing wrong with suggesting rule changes. If you think that rules should be changed, then suggest a change to the proper people through the proper channels. But don't get angry if your ideas are not accepted. The VSC, as I understand it, has a greater participation than the Nats. It is run by volunteers who do not have to be there. They are there because they want to be. But let's not chase them off and kill the event just because it didn't go our way.

I think it is time to lock the thread down and move on.