Fine Copper Serving wire?

What is fine copper serving wire and where do you get it?

http://www.tomsbuildingservice.biz/pdf/Wrapping%20Lines.pdf

Thanks
Paul

Paul,

I picked up a spool at the local electronics store for very little cost. I don't remember the diameter offhand, but I believe it is about 0.010". If you can't find it locally, check catalog page 3445 at the following.

http://www.mcmaster.com/

I've purchased bulk cable for control lines from these folks and they provide good service at very reasonable prices.

>Paul,
>
>I picked up a spool at the local electronics store for very
>little cost. I don't remember the diameter offhand, but I
>believe it is about 0.010". If you can't find it locally,
>check catalog page 3445 at the following.
>
>http://www.mcmaster.com/
>
>I've purchased bulk cable for control lines from these folks
>and they provide good service at very reasonable prices.

HAy old sourguts,

Thank you

OH about line what page do you order from???

Didn't any of you guys read Iskandar's Supplier's Page and/or bookmark some links while his site was up?

Scott,

Check out the 1×7 Stranded 302 stainless wire rope on page 1238. We are using the .012", 1/64"(.0156"), and 018" wire with good results. At 3¢ per foot for amounts over 299', it's a good deal. How does $18.00 (plus reasonable shipping amounts) for five sets of 60' lines sound to you?

By the way, that's Mr. Sourguts to you!!

>Check out the 1×7 Stranded 302 stainless wire rope on page
>1238. We are using the .012", 1/64"(.0156"), and 018" wire
>with good results. At 3¢ per foot for amounts over 299',
>it's a good deal. How does $18.00 (plus reasonable shipping
>amounts) for five sets of 60' lines sound to you?

2 cents, actually. A REALLY good price!

$18 will get you 900 feet (enough for 7 sets of line with 60 feet left over in case you damage one line.. )

Iskandar,

A bit has happened since you left the USA. The current price for that wire rope is 3¢ per foot in amounts of 300' or more. How about that? We have 50% inflation for this item in the last few years!

Hmmm.. that's strange - I looked it up on the McMaster Carr web page right before I posted. I never did buy any wire from them in the past because the (paper) catalog never showed the 2 cent price - in fact, you don't find out about it on the web page, either, until you actually click on the item and the info pops up on the left side of the screen.

I wish I'd known about this back then, but then again I wouldn't have been driven to find the people who make the wire (I managed to locate three or four factories in the U.S.) and the joys of using galvanized rather than stainless (basically, a fairly good price discount).

Iskandar,

I stand corrected. I just checked again, and you are correct. I guess I should call about a refund for my last order. My wire rope costs should be reduced by 33 1/3%!

Thanks.

One thing I can say about model airplanes (unlike a couple other hobbies of mine- motorcycles is one) it hasn't almost killed me at least once. In fact it has been a source of solace in a lot of dark times past.
To answer your question, it is fine gauge copper wire, some guys use the wire used as winding on small electric motors for example. I just strip off scrap phone wire- works as well as anything I've tried and I get it off job site wreckouts for nothing. What I can't use goes to the recycle yard.

Jake

I got a sewing type spool of fine copper wire at 'Hobby Lobby', which is primarily a 'craft' store. I can't remember the price. It was a year ago.

Fred

It's in the "bead" section of the store.

I have found that craft stores sell colored fine wire that is great for wrapping line ends. Different colors help keep the up on the up and the down on the down.....

The guys that I beg to wrap lines for me seem genuinely impressed!

See Ya

The bead wire comes in 32 and 38 gauge around here when it's plane, the colored wire is a bit thicker.

Brett says he used transformer wrapping wire, 40 guage? and when he's done wrapping, he brushes it with thinner which melts the plastic covering together. It comes in different colors too.

The bead wire will set you back about a dollar a roll.

>The bead wire comes in 32 and 38 gauge around here when it's
>plane, the colored wire is a bit thicker.
>
>Brett says he used transformer wrapping wire, 40 guage? and
>when he's done wrapping, he brushes it with thinner which
>melts the plastic covering together. It comes in different
>colors too.

28 AWG Magnet wire. 32 gauge would probably work OK, too.

I once stripped the copper from an old electric cord!

As long as it is long and thin, it works just fine.

Like Tom K., I found an old lamp cord with multi-strand wire and "disemboweled" it. Probably a lifetime supply!

LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-04 AT 10:33 PM (CDT)
 
Radio Shack sells a 3 pack of magnet winding wire spools 1 Red, 1 Green, and 1 nat copper (at least that was the grab bag I got). Cheap and will last a LONG time. They are all slightly different in size, but all useful. I like the red/green for up/down. Most you will find are coated with something, but it doesn't seem to matter. We are not supposed to be soldering these anymore any ways, right? I use a dab of thinned epoxy these days. Never had one let go. If you are afraid epoxy is still too stiff, thin it with denatured alcohol. Dries a little more pliant than straight epoxy, but still plenty strong.

For a direct link -

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=278-1345

Check out the 1×7 Stranded 302 stainless wire rope on page 1238. We are using the .012", 1/64"(.0156"), and 018" wire with good results. At 3¢ per foot for amounts over 299', it's a good deal. How does $18.00 (plus reasonable shipping amounts) for five sets of 60' lines sound to you?

By the way, that's Mr. Sourguts to you!!

The Old Sourdough
Ruksakinmakiak, Alaska, US of A

Mr. O.S., sir...

My answer is that it sounds too good to be true. Please explain, clearly and slowly so I don't get confused, exactly how one might be able to construct five (5) sets of 60' lines from 300 feet of wire rope.

Your source is an excellent reference, however. Sir...

While it really annoys me to be agreeing with Peabody, local crafts store, beading section is where to get The Good Stuff for wrapping line ends. I use the smallest stuff local shop sells in black and red. Also use on leadouts. At most fuel line connections. Forming silicone fuel line into a loop (substitute for rubber bands) for tank retention on profile models by wrapping both ends to all-thread. Etc.

SIG sells copper serving wire, your local hobby shop probably has it in stock.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Yeah,but SIG's is only pretty good,not fine.

Dan,

OS confused you with one of them old fashioned 'Word problems" of the math kind. I was able to figger it out because we just finished helping our 2 kids prepare for the FCAT test here in Florida. ( modern version of the old Iowa Basic assesment test)

Here goes

3cents a foot if you buy more than 299 feet.

5 sets of 60" lines = 5 X 60 X 2 ( 1 up and 1 down) = 600 feet

600 feet x 3cent/ft = 1800 cents or $18.

Thank my 10 year old, after I did it I had him do the same problem, took him a couple tries, but he did ask -Whay would you need 5 sets of lines? I explained that some people can keep more than 1 or 2 planes in flying condition, and use a set for each plane. He told me -" Oh -so you only need 1 set, and I need 2 right? - smart*ss kid

Bill,

When I got O.S. by telling him that Kevlar is "yellow string which is hard to cut," I really should have quit. Thanks ever so much.

Thats ok Dan, what really hurts is that the kid was right, at present I only have 1 fully flyable plane ( Skyray 35), since the Ringmaster and Shoestring are both down for repair.
He has 2, his beater Streak Jr, and my old Ringmaster Jr that I just gave him because the streak is getting very tired.
The dozen or so 1/2a planes dont really count because we fly them on Spyder wire and don't have to wrap the ends- which is where this topic started.

Have a good weekend everybody, with any luck I'll get out and put up a few flights. or at least pit for the boy and his buddy while they fly- almost as fun.

Mr. D wrote:

"Mr. O.S., sir...

My answer is that it sounds too good to be true. Please explain, clearly and slowly so I don't get confused, exactly how one might be able to construct five (5) sets of 60' lines from 300 feet of wire rope.

Your source is an excellent reference, however. Sir..."
==============================================================
Mr. D,

Hmmmmmm... I guess that I should have read this one earlier so that my response could have been a bit more timely. For that, I apologize sincerely. The simple answer to your question is, "I can't explain to you or even myself how one would construct five sets of lines from 300 feet of wire rope." There is more, however...

Let's see now. In the original statement to which you responded, I did not state the amount of bulk line I ordered. I especially did not say that I could make five sets of lines from 300' of wire rope! My statement and question were, "At 3¢ per foot for amounts over 299', it's a good deal. How does $18.00 (plus reasonable shipping amounts) for five sets of 60' lines sound to you?"

Using the above, we see that there are two givens, the price per foot ("P") (for amounts over 299') and the total price ("A") (less shipping) for five sets of 60'± lines. We can solve mathematically for the unknown ("X") total number of feet ordered thus:

If X=A/P (and it does!),

then,

X=$18.00/$.03 (As 3¢=$.03),

ergo,

X=600'.

To continue, just to double check the above, we know that, for five sets of 60' lines, we'll need ten pieces of wire rope 60' long for our two lines of 60' each per set.

10×60'=600'

The math seems to jive. However, a stickler could rightly state that, considering the wire used for the terminations of each set, it would be impossible to manufacture five full length sets of 60'lines. I, nonetheless, stand by the original statement, in as much as I tend to measure line length from the center line of the plane to the center line of the handle, rather than eyelet to eyelet. In fact, using this method, with 600' of wire rope on hand, one has more than one needs for five sets of 60' lines.

I hope this clears any misunderstandings that you had remaining.

The problem with reading these threads in order and replying to individual messages as they're read is that one misses the fact that someone else may have already explained the situation..., such as Bill did, with the help of his grandson.

I apologize for the duplication.

So I'm the new guy and have to question everything. what's wrong with crimped copper sleeves? Thousands of hang glider and ultralight pilots have bet their lives on crimped copper. You've got metal flowing between the strands of the cables. Thinner melting the enamel of magnet wire? gives me the willies. Don

LAST EDITED ON Mar-29-04 AT 00:24 AM (CDT)
 
>So I'm the new guy and have to question everything. what's
>wrong with crimped copper sleeves? Thousands of hang glider
>and ultralight pilots have bet their lives on crimped
>copper. You've got metal flowing between the strands of the
>cables.

Completely different type of problem. These are essentially static lines with no flexing. Control lines are very prone to being flexed when you remove and attach them. They then break at the end of the crimp:

[photo not recovered: 4067c0fe56673370.jpg]

>Thinner melting the enamel of magnet wire? gives me
>the willies.

How so? It's held from unwrapping by having the ends twisted together, and the enamel does not make it stiff. I thought it was pretty clever...

When preparing Hang glider wires we're careful to do a certain number of crimps for the length of the sleeve and never "finish" the crimp on the end away from the thimble(eyelet). Then the wire emerges from a nice tapered copper cone. When adding power to these types of airframes the wires are often observed to be resonant and with proper inspection isn't a problem. Don

Some of us Combat pilots use crimps. Never had lines break at the crimp, but I've had them break or get cut elsewhere. Not something I'd recommend for Stunt, though.

Euro Combat pilots even solder the loops at the ends. Won't work with American stainless wire. The Euro wire saws right through the soft US wire, too.

>Some of us Combat pilots use crimps. Never had lines break
>at the crimp, but I've had them break or get cut elsewhere.
>Not something I'd recommend for Stunt, though.
>
>Euro Combat pilots even solder the loops at the ends. Won't
>work with American stainless wire. The Euro wire saws right
>through the soft US wire, too.

Anyone recall the old Pre-WWll story of the American wire sent to Germany for the Germanics to marvel at its 'never before seen' micro-diameter? The Germans sent it back with holes drilled through it.

You wouldn't recommend crimps for stunt why? Investment in model? Weight of model? I'm still crimping, the one in the photo is textbook on how not to do it. Do people wrap because they don't have a cheapo electrical crimping tool? Just looked at some old lines from the seventies, wouldn't you know, Perfect knew how to crimp correctly back then, too. Don

>You wouldn't recommend crimps for stunt why? Investment in
>model? Weight of model? I'm still crimping, the one in the
>photo is textbook on how not to do it. Do people wrap
>because they don't have a cheapo electrical crimping tool?
>Just looked at some old lines from the seventies, wouldn't
>you know, Perfect knew how to crimp correctly back then,
>too.

People wrap them because the past 55-60 years of C/L flying has indicated that crimps are inferior to wrapping. It's not like a static line, and it's not like a hang-glider application. If you want to crimp them, by all means go ahead. We all know better, but some people have to learn things the hard way.

Perfect lines from the 70's were notorious for not having the crimps done properly, BTW. I would guess 1/4-1/2 of the sets I had in that era were not completely crimped and could be slipped off rather easily. In addition, they simply ran the tail back up the crimp, instead of looping it around the outside. You could pull 5 lbs and have the entire thing slip off. Everybody I knew remade the ends with either crimps or wrapping because the factory crimps couldn't be trusted.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-04 AT 07:00 AM (CDT)
 
Not that I'm an expert or anything, but I do have alot of experience swaging and nico-pressing wire.

One of the big differences, and why our line applications are better wrapped than crimped, is the tolerance for error in the process.

A poorly wrapped termination, as long as the basic sequence is followed, is far better than a poorly crimped connection. The margin for crimping to the proper dimension is VERY narrow. And it gets smaller as the crimp and wire size is reduced.

THe crimp can fail if it is crimped too tightly, or too little. If the crimp size is incorrect for either the wire, or the crimp tool. and worse, even if the crimp is done well for straight line pull, the termination can fail quickly from wire flex and work-hardening at the crimp exit.

Curt

PS: I DO crimp (Nico-Press) my lead out assemblies and handle cables.

Larger wire and I use proper nico-press sleeves and the proper tooling.

Yeah, the planes cost a lot, and there is a lot of work invested in them, but also, the lines are used for far longer than any Combat lines (which get ruined in short order due to line tangles). In addition, Stunt planes with anything more than a 35 Stunt pull far harder than any Combat plane I've ever flown.

Aren't most of the really good ultralight pioneer pilots dead as a result of aircraft structural failure?

Reading selected parts of the AMA rule book again. Line terminations are covered in Rule 5.3 under Control Line General. One can wrap or crimp the ends of multistrand lines, but only wrap the ends of single strand lines. On crimps, the end of the wire is shown turned back and passed through the crimp. What is specified is that the wire pass through the crimp three times. It is widely agreed that the instructions to solder or epoxy the wrap on multistrand lines is bad advice and should be deleted.