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OS 15FP - Dirty Dan Please Elaborate

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Ron King · Mar 25, 2004 05:39 PM

#0 source
Dan,

I've pulled this thought off the OTS thread because there's probably more info here that shouldn't be buried. You replied to my note regarding the S-1 Ringmaster and said that the OS 15FP would be the way to go, correct?

My problem: I flew tons of OS FP's in the 1980's in my RC planes and really liked the engine - but it isn't being made now and I'm not sure I want to scrounge through the world of Ebay. I realize the FP series was better than the new LA series. Better material, better fit, better finish, etc. etc. But is the 15FP that much more powerful than the LA 15? And is either of those two really enough to haul a Ringmaster around?

I like the idea of being able to use .012 stranded lines, but I guess I'm a little skeptical. I have a few LA 25's and really like how they run. Frankly, that's been one of my best engines since I came back to CL. All I do is replace the bolts and add an ST needle valve.

More pearls of wisdom please, don't spare the details.

Thanks,

dirtydan · Mar 25, 2004 05:55 PM

#1 source
>Dan,
>
>I've pulled this thought off the OTS thread because there's
>probably more info here that shouldn't be buried. You
>replied to my note regarding the S-1 Ringmaster and said
>that the OS 15FP would be the way to go, correct?

Ron,

In doing so, I am relying very heavily on input from others, plus having seen Emil Kovac's model fly a few years ago.

The impetus for this came during discussions concerning the 20FPs fitted to a wide range of profile models, the lone exception being a Ringmaster in that such a combination would be very fast. As in *too* fast.

In this case the 15FP is the better power plant. I am assuming we are talking here about scratch-built Ringmasters considerably lighter than kit-built models. Emil's was very light, to the point of almost legendary status here in the NW.

>
>My problem: I flew tons of OS FP's in the 1980's in my RC
>planes and really liked the engine - but it isn't being made
>now and I'm not sure I want to scrounge through the world of
>Ebay. I realize the FP series was better than the new LA
>series. Better material, better fit, better finish, etc.
>etc. But is the 15FP that much more powerful than the LA 15?
>And is either of those two really enough to haul a
>Ringmaster around?

Given a choice, knowing what I do at this moment in time concerning the LA series, there is no question that I would jump through all the hoops to get an O.S. 15FP for a Ringmaster. And the model would be built light.

>
>I like the idea of being able to use .012 stranded lines,
>but I guess I'm a little skeptical. I have a few LA 25's and
>really like how they run. Frankly, that's been one of my
>best engines since I came back to CL. All I do is replace
>the bolts and add an ST needle valve.

Flying on 012s is pretty cool. Used to use them on my ARF Flite Streak, really like the feel. Alas, I have become somewhat domesticated of late, plus it became more and more obvious I was going to be flying one of them in 2004 contests, so I went to 015s.

This is really a question of application. Contest work? The 15FP, and by no small margin. Casual sport flying with an engine you can readily buy, that you have had good experience with? Your call...


>
>More pearls of wisdom please, don't spare the details.
>
>Thanks,

Flattery will not get you more than the advice above, especially noting much of it is second-hand.

Dan

Ron King · Mar 25, 2004 09:19 PM

#5 source
Thanks for the info. I agree that the 15FP would do fine in a light plane. My old 20FP used to amaze my RC friends with the power it showed. They thought it was a .25FSR.

Alas, I am dealing a with a kit. It's the RSM kit and the wood is much better than the Sterling kit I have open next to it (to check the parts). But the fuselage looks and feels vaguely similar to a Cricket bat. And that infamous Ringmaster leading edge?

I'll probably go with the 25 on this one. My original Ringmasters were powered by McCoy 35's, back in the AYSC days. I'll start looking for a 15FP. If I find one, I'll try to scratch build something.

Kiwi · Mar 25, 2004 09:34 PM

RE: OS 15FP - or a close equivalent, perhapsedited#6 source
> ... I am dealing a with a kit. It's the RSM kit and the wood is much better than
>the Sterling kit ...
>
> ... I'll start looking for a 15FP. If I find one, I'll try to scratch build something.

Without more exposure to LA's (I have 25's, not 15's or 40/46's), I make no comparisons including those. But I do have Magnum 15's, 25's, 36's, etc. and the ones I have are high quality, strong-running engines available at an extremely competitive price.

If that RSM model looks and feels like a model that will finish out in the range of 21-23 Ounces, I feel certain that a Magnum 15 would fly it quite well, perhaps better than a 15FP will. In several cases, the Magnums out-power the FP's, so naturally they are likely to make the LA's look puny by comparison.

.

Kiwi

**

LNeumann · Mar 25, 2004 06:28 PM

#2 source
If I can put a second opinion on this thread, and with the hope that it can be taken as a second opinion, if you have an LA 25 that you like, I would certainly suggest you go ahead and use it. I can't for the life of me see how that is too much engine. Back in the "good old days" (when Ringmaster kits were $3.95 each and that was a lot of money) I flew one with an open exhaust K&B 35 and I didn't consider that to be too much engine. But what did I know then (or now?) Since it is rpm and prop pitch that determines speed of your airplane, go for a prop pitch and rpm that give you the lap speed you desire and have fun. Hey, people are putting Saito 72s in front of their big airplanes these days. I don't think a lowly LA 25 is going to overpower anything of the size of a Ringmaster.

SRiese5283 · Mar 25, 2004 07:54 PM

#3 source
My 2 cents
LA-vs-FP.....Gee there a lot of LA Flyers out there with alot of flights.

F4FGuy · Mar 25, 2004 08:29 PM

#4 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

I have to agree with both Dan and Leonard.Build it light and the .15FP is the best choice,maybe yhe only good choice.Build it like the Sterling kit and the .40 VF on a pipe won't be too much.In between ,for fun flying,almost any engine will work just fine IF you prop it correctly.Just remember,the bigger the engine the more power and the more wing loading you can handle.The bigger the engine,the more weight up front,the more ballast in the rear and the higher the wing loading,requiring more power...................................

Ron B.

Brett Buck · Mar 25, 2004 10:29 PM

#7 source
>Dan,
>
>I've pulled this thought off the OTS thread because there's
>probably more info here that shouldn't be buried. You
>replied to my note regarding the S-1 Ringmaster and said
>that the OS 15FP would be the way to go, correct?

Here I go again, but...

The single best-flying Sterling kit Ringmaster I have ever flown or seen was somone's (whose name I unfortunately can't recall) box-stock S1 with a full opaque dope finish, powered by, {cringing} a box-stock 15FP with something like a 8.5-4 Master Airscrew. I didn't weigh it, but it was in the ballpark of 30 oz.


David Fitzgerald and I were out flying one day at the old Napa circle and this gentleman joined us. Had a full silkspan/dope job (Darrell Waltrip "Western Auto" #17 NASCAR colors) , a 15FP, and the classic +-60 degree, super-fast elevator motion. Of course, he flew it and it just about crashed at every attempted maneuver due to the weight and the "Insta-Stall" control setup. We got him to greatly narrow the handle spacing to get the stalls under control (down to about +-20 degrees, and some nose weight, as I recall), and then it flew pretty good. David and I, being big-time experts as we are. noticed this, and then we asked to fly it. Both of us were amazed at the performance, since we both knew for certain that the Ringmaster as an unredeemable dog. But this airplane, while not a really Walker Flyoff candidate, was at least pretty darn respectable. And what struck me about it was the remarkably consistent power.

This experience was what got me aimed towards trying to develop the 20FP for "35-sized" planes. I mentioned it to Ted, and before long the whole story of WAM "A" Stunt came to light, and the wheels began to turn - leading to the current situation and the 20FP setup.

Note that in the other thread, I noted that we had tried the 20 and the 15 on a Ringmaster. A 20FP, or a slightly-less-powerful Veco 19, will fly the Ringmaster faster than you want or need, or helps overcome the other problems. ringmaster S-1+Veco19+9-4 APC+62 foot lines = 4.2 second laps. Ringmaster S-1+20FP+9-4 APC+62 foot lines = 3.8 second laps. The 15 drops it right in the ballpark at about 4.5 seconds laps with am 8.5-4, with sparkling performance all around. I think it's the ideal engine for this airplane.

Of course, it's still a Ringmaster, and it will benefit from sensible weight reduction. But not too much. The superior performance with these engines, and keeping the controls to the stall limit will keep you from stalling it - but less tendency to stall means tighter turns, and tighter turns mean more load in the corners. And the Ringmaster wing structural design is somewhere between poor and dreadful. Excessive weight reduction and an inefficient structure don't go too well together, and it's very easy to shed a wing if you are not careful. Ted's superlight Ringmaster with monokote pulled in alarming amounts of dihedral in even round loops before it's untimely demise, and Davids outboard wing ( lightened by hollowing out the leading edge) broke off entirely and fluttered down at my feet during a contest one day. Point is, you don't have to, nor to you want to, cut away too much wood. It will fly fine into th upper 20's-low 30 oz range, and if you overdo the weight reduction you will end up with a balsa snowstorm.

The other thing to note is that the engine is so good it will trick you into forgetting what you are flying. The airplane with a 15FP or Veco 19 will do anything you can think of with ease. As soon as the engine quits, it turns back into a Ringmaster. David crashed both his and Ted's multiple times when he was fiddling around at the end of the flight with horizontal hourglasses, bolo loops, etc, when it unexpectedly ran out of gas. All of a sudden an airplane that will easily do half-sized square 8's can't execute a half-loop from 60 degrees to get upright.

Brett

dirtydan · Mar 26, 2004 02:31 PM

#8 source
Even though Brett cringed at doing it, there are some valuable lessons in his post, along with some interesting history to a current setup being, uh, discussed.

What did Yogi Berra say? Something like, "It's amazing what you can see when you look." Close enough for this purpose.

Also, I have in fact seen, indeed have competed against, at least one of these feared Ringmaster/Veco 19 combinations, Ted and David flying same model at NW Regionals at least once, David going solo as recently as 2003.

They are amazing models, to the point where if I had a fresh Veco 19 I'd be real tempted.

As to Emil Kovac's Ringmasters, just this morning a friend told me at least one of them was 16 ounces all-up, no fuel. Actually "is" ought be used as Dave Gardner owns the model in question. Also furnished was the information that if/when the wind came up the models lost a lot of their attractiveness, although I must admit as to not having noticed.

(It was a few years ago and there were a *lot* of Things Stunt I didn't get back then. Sadly, this has hardly changed at all over the years.)

Still, it must be mentioned that Emil is known for being an excellent OTS specialist, to always have real good equipment, and is a man who can be counted upon to be brutally honest about same. If he says his super-light Ringmasters fared poorly in wind I would take him at his word, especially as he is not referring to a one-off model/engine combination, instead at least two, maybe three, with similar characteristics.

Emil is known for picking a design and then building multiple copies of said design. Only to almost willy-nilly begin selling the "inferior" models to folk who find they have now got a "superior" model, so exacting is Emil in his tastes.

Maybe someone with a more direct connection to Emil's approach and his models can chime in here. Steve? Dave?

Dan

finch · Mar 26, 2004 08:29 PM

#9 source

>My problem: I flew tons of OS FP's in the 1980's in my RC
>planes and really liked the engine - but it isn't being made
>now and I'm not sure I want to scrounge through the world of
>Ebay. I realize the FP series was better than the new LA
>series. Better material, better fit, better finish, etc.
>etc. But is the 15FP that much more powerful than the LA 15?
>And is either of those two really enough to haul a
>Ringmaster around?

Ron,
I've got a 15fp you can use if you wish. Give me a call if you want to try it out.

Finch

Ron King · Mar 26, 2004 09:07 PM

#10 source
Dave, is that you? Didn't know your nom de plume.

Can you bring it to the next meeting? I will try it in a scratch-built version.

Thanks,

finch · Mar 27, 2004 06:49 AM

#11 source
>Dave, is that you? Didn't know your nom de plume.
>
>Can you bring it to the next meeting? I will try it in a
>scratch-built version.
>
>Thanks,

Yep, it's me. Sorry should've stuck more of a name on there. will bring it along. Last 2 planes it on was a Flitestreak JR. and a Ringmaster JR. I can tell you that with that engine those planes were WAAY overpowered. There is a lot of engine there. I had plans of putting it on a custom built plane at about 42-48 inch span.

Happy Fly'n
Dave