Past and Future of PA

Pictured above or below,not sure where it'll be,is one of my favorite pics from our excursion to VSC 2004.Unfortunately three of these four "boys" were unable to compete.One, due to the passing many years and thousands of flights.Thanks,Mr Palmer, for your contributions to this sport Alex and I are enjoying so much.Alex and Scot after receiving a last minute opportunity to attend this competition were unable to fly due to rigid pre entry requirements.Although disappointed it was easy to explain to Alex that rules are developed for the safety of fliers and spectators and the efficiency of the event. We were able move on and enjoy viewing the many beautiful stunt ships,excellent flights and the perfect Tucson weather.
Arriving back in South Carolina, after a harrowing "stand by"experience via Salt Lake and San Fransisco,Monday and awaking Tuesday to the thread regarding the fact that the "Rigid pre entry rule" was not so rigid after all, really threw me for a spin.Not being one who tends toward over reaction, I've yet to brooch this delelopment to Alex, who although fairly new to the sport will be moving to Advanced this year,stands a good chance of taking the Juniors in Muncie and best of all flies my pants off, because I have no way to explain a rule that only applies in a discretionary fashion.
These boys and all youngsters,of all ages, are the future of this fine sport.I am hoping that someone involved with this bit of maljustice will email me privately and help me explain to my son how this could occur.

Thanks to all the Cholla Choppers who put time into this event. Great site and great event

Leonard,I have no need to beef here in your public forum and don't want to see another name calling thread, so if you'd like to close to responses that would be fine.

"The Courtney High Flyers"
Metrolina Controline Society

dave and alex courtney

I am not involved with running the VSC. I am the event director for OTS Ignition.

However, I have been a Contest Director for for 14 years, and have run about 16 contests.

Running a perfect contest is difficult to do, and you learn by experience. By experience, I mean making mistakes and learning from them.

The pre entry requirement at the VSC was started by Mike and Joann Keville for good reason. The Kevilles used to arrive at the Rodeway Inn one day before the contest, and they and the other people helping to register contestants would be busy from then until the contest started, just filling out forms. Since the labor required for this task is all volunteer, the contest management tried to make it as easy as possible for the all volunteer force. If you burn out your volunteers, they won't volunteer again. Then you are you going to have trouble next year getting volunteers to tabulate at the contest.

Please realize that the VSC is the biggest stunt contest going. The amount of labor required to run it is amazing.

I do not know this for a fact, but I would think that those who were allowed late entries, talked to one person, and those who were refused
entry talked to someone else.

This is an unfortunate situation. But when you compute the success or failure of a contest, you can't fail it due to one mistake. In our own lives, if we were judged as failures for one mistake, we would all be failures!

The Cholla Choppers did a wonderful job at the VSC; they had one problem. This problem has not surfaced before.

I believe that the guys will have this problem fixed next year.

I for one am grateful that we have the VSC.

I don't normally involve myself with personal events in others lives, but I felt compelled to offer an opinion here.There is an old and very true cliche "Nobody said life is fair". As a young man I (and I am sure you too) was made aware of this. When an unfair event takes place there are a number of reactions that you can take and it appears that you have responded in a positive way.

Your point is well made when you say "what do I tell my son?" because how you respond will influence the rest of your sons life. Not because of this particular event but all of lifes disapointments. The last thing you would want is for him to be an unfair, revenge filled, and bitter indivdual. Life will offer your son many opportunities to succeed and to be a better and wiser person. You have not ignored what you consider unfair, you have raised your voice and made your point and asked that consideration be given to a change of rules and fair implimentation. I believe you have responded in a manner that befits a caring parent. The way our children see us act in any given situation builds the character that becomes them as adults.

I taught my son to remember the unfair events in his life because a time will come when he is called upon to render fair and impartial decisions. I am sure we all would hope that we teach our kids not to make the same mistakes we made. (and sometimes continue to make). My point is simple "what do I tell my son", the truth, if you feel that you have been delt with unfairly, make yourself heard. Do what you can to change tomorrow. Do not allow the event to make you bitter and to cloud the overall picture.

Rog

I was a son, then a dad, and now a grampa,

I will not comment on the VSC happening as I was not involved. I was the CL Racing Event director at the 1983 Nats. I was instructed to rigidly enforce time deadlines on processing of models. A well-known racer, who has flown at many nats, showed up 10 minutes late. I refused to process his airplane. He had no real problem with this. He was an experienced, responsible adult who know the rules very well. A day or two later a father showed up 10 minutes late to process his son and another junior's airplanes. I explained the situation to the CL Event Director, Bev Wisniski, and she did not tell me not to process them. I processed them. I felt that it was not the junior's fault that they were 10 minutes late, and that it would be not be in the best interests of model aviation to deny juniors the opportunity to compete because of an administrative technicality.

A well-known racer, who has flown at many nats, showed up 10 minutes late. He had no real problem with this. He was an experienced, responsible adult who know the rules very well.
==========================================================
> A day or two later a father showed up 10 minutes late to
>process his son and another junior's airplanes. I explained
>the situation to the CL Event Director, Bev Wisniski, and
>she did not tell me not to process them. I processed them.
>I felt that it was not the junior's fault that they were 10
>minutes late, and that it would be not be in the best
>interests of model aviation to deny juniors the opportunity
>to compete because of an administrative technicality.
========================================================

I have done things similar to this, but if the contestant who was denied flying finds out that you allowed someone else to fly under the same circumstances, you can have some repercussions about it.

I do have one question: what would you do if that same father brought his son in late for processing two years in a row?

> A well-known racer, who has flown at
>many nats, showed up 10 minutes late.
>I refused to process his airplane.
>
> A day or two later a father showed up 10 minutes late to
>process his son and another junior's airplanes.
>I processed them. I felt that it was not the junior's
>fault that they were 10 minutes late, and that it
>would be not be in the best interests of model
>aviation to deny juniors the opportunity to compete
>because of an administrative technicality.

That's a thoughtful sentiment.

It's also the exact opposite of what happened at VSC this year. Two seniors were allowed to fly even though they missed the entry deadline--one on the basis that he 'is a fixture here"-- while a couple of juniors were not allowed to fly after making a last minute effort to attend.

The previous thread on this subject was locked down because it was perceived that the discussion was about the procedure, however that was not the point. The real issue is the arbitrary enforcement of the 'rules'.

In particular, given all the possible influences on kids these days and all the options they have to spend their energy and attention, taking time to take into consideration the circumstances involved and thereby encouraging a quality youngster would seem as valid as to taking into consideration the circumstances involved and allowing two members of the "good old boys club" to fly.

If we place roadblocks like that in the way of the next generation trying to participate, then it should come as not surprise that there won't be anything but old boys left to carry the flame. Or anyone to carry the flame at all after a certain point.

A little equity in rule-bending is all it would take, not a major revision of the rule book.

Cy

Dave,

I'm a Cholla Chopper. I didn't "run" the VSC, but did try to help here and there. I am sorry to hear that timing didn't allow entry, but De Hill summed up our problems very well.

Perhaps, next year, our advance announcements should stress that pre-entry fees will be refunded if an entrant actually cannot get to Tucson for the VSC. I heard this discussed among the "officials" for the VSC and banquet arrangements.

"The word" will start appearing later this year, as always. It is a lot of work, but we are proud of the VSC, and want it to be better every year.

Hope to se y'all next time...

>Dave,
>
>Perhaps, next year, our advance announcements should stress
>that pre-entry fees will be refunded if an entrant actually
>cannot get to Tucson for the VSC.

Lou:

I think the word got out well enough. The parties in question all could not (for a variety of reasons) know that they could attend until it was too late to meet the pre entry deadline.

What I thought remarkable was that the pre-entry fee was refunded after the contestants were actually already in Tucson.

At least to some of them.

Other in similar circumstances were allowed to compete.

Cy.

Cy,

What is your recommendation to prevent this from happening next year?

What's done is done and can't be changed.

i say if they have the check let them enter maybe charge a late fee i understand alot goes into this contest. this my first vsc and i thought it was great. but turning people away does not prmote this hobby, sport. so if there late charge a late fee. well thats my 2 cents.

Well, here goes. I hope what I have to say will clarify the issues, not make things worse. To wit: Those who registered up to the day before the contest were allowed to fly-they were allowed entry after the original deadline but still before the contest started- essentially the deadline was moved up to the night before the meet began- a goodwill gesture to accomodate those who were already there. Those who were turned away were attempting to enter after the contest started. Some of the entrants thought they were allowed to fly while others were denied and stated so on SSW. But they weren't entering after the contest began, ie, that same day. They were ahead of the deadline. There are many facets to this little jewel, but I would suggest that before publicly maligning the hard working folks who bring us the VSC that we learn from our mistakes and press on. I flew with the young flyers out in the grass circles and they were having a good time- so I did, too! Next year the VSC will begin on Wednesday and the entry deadline is Tuesday- this per Robin Sizemore at the banquet. Also, any questions concerning the VSC should be directed to the people administering the contest, not on line forums. With great trepidation I now press the "Post Message' key-Best regards to all,

dale,
Alex and I did enjoy this expertly run event and stated so...not the point.
and if you will reread , I asked for private responses to the stated facts and some help explaining to a twelve year old the string of events.
this will not make a bitter man of my son. he enjoys boatloads of praise from all those in the stunt community that he flies with on a regular basis, and returns that praise with a smile that is makes you think about being twelve again.

now new information is here........if the day before was the deadline....... oops alex and i missed it...........but scot danford did not,jim hoffman had his registration check in hand the day before.
not at all related to this thread. but you dale brought it up.

the courtney high flyers

dave and alex

I have no business commenting, but that has never stopped me before

I don't care what the rules are. This is a "private" event after all.

BUT, the rules need to be (should be) enforced equally across the board, regardless of if the person is a "newbie" or a "legend".

I'll shut up now

>Cy,
>
>What is your recommendation to prevent this
>from happening next year?

That's the good question, De.

1) Common Sense. If someone has made a good faith effort (registration check in show directors hand before it starts, appropriate airplane, etc.) to show up to support the event, find a way to let them fly. The only exception being if there's a youngster involved, as there are so few of them interested in the hobby/sport--in that case you try harder to find a way to let them fly.

2) Communication. If an aspiring competitor has an indeterminate schedule get the word out to the guys running the contest as soon as possible what the circumstances are. This helped a couple of late comers get in after the registration window closed. There's enough to deal with putting on the event with the things you do/can plan for. An unexpected surprise is easier to just deflect than to process when you are in the middle of an event.

3) My observation that a properly configured browser based contest administration tool would address the logistics (and improve the communication) was made in the original thread.

I don't expect this will happen again next year, because it's unlikely we'll see Scott at the VSC again as it stands now.

All of that said, it's time to drop the subject.

The people who run the event are dedicated folks and they will no doubt figure out a solution so this kind of thing does not happen again and pass it down to whomever follows in their footsteps. They know much better than I and will plan accordingly.

That's sort of the point of the debrief--to impove the product, not to place blame.

Cy.