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Foam versus built up - How heavier?

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Ion Muniz · Apr 04, 2004 10:02 PM

edited#0 source
**********EDIT**********

Lemme rephrase the question, I think I gotta give all the facts to get the answer I need.

I have a set of the Chizler plans, and I want to build it and power it with an OS.25VF.

The pipe fits just right inside it's belly, and I am sure this power train will give it an excelent performance.

BUT, the plans are kinda distorted, and I couldn't even get a decent pair of templates.

since the Chizler wing is a Nobler wing (exept for the tips) I started considering using a foam wing. Dick Matthis said his Chizler wheighed 40 oz.

The question is: Is 40 oz. a realistic goal, taking in acount the extra engine weight (the OS.25VF plus header and pipe will probably wheugh some 10 oz.)? The finish would be the lightest possible, maybe Ozcover or light silkspan.

Howmany extra onuces a foam wing will penalize me?


If I compared a Nobler foam wing and a built up one (assuming both were built as light as possible) how much heavier would the foam one be?

Also, can a foam wing be skinned with 1/32" or 1 mm skins?

Theese 1 mm sheets can be found here in Rio at "RobbingLand" (HobbyLand) and they are C grain hard balsa.

The original owner of Hobbyland was a good airmodeler, but he retired and his son now runs the business, and he's shameless...

Ion

Iskandar Taib · Apr 04, 2004 10:10 PM

RE: Wings - Foam versus built up - Which is lighter?#1 source
For Combat wings, foam's generally heavier. But wood is a pain to build. Built right, though (see Russian designs) they can be plenty tough.

1/32" wood is about 0.8mm, so 1mm is 25% thicker. I'd think hard C-grain wood is the last sort you'd want to skin wings with.

Ion Muniz · Apr 04, 2004 10:26 PM

RE: Wings - Foam versus built up - Which is lighter?#2 source
>For Combat wings, foam's generally heavier. But wood is a
>pain to build. Built right, though (see Russian designs)
>they can be plenty tough.
>
>1/32" wood is about 0.8mm, so 1mm is 25% thicker. I'd think
>hard C-grain wood is the last sort you'd want to skin wings
>with.

Well, Isky, what is then the FIRST thing I'd want to skin wings
with?

Ion

Iskandar Taib · Apr 04, 2004 11:01 PM

RE: Wings - Foam versus built up - Which is lighter?#4 source
Something that bends. I don't know if light wood is better than heavy wood for sheeting, but I suspect so.

I've never sheeted a foam wing with wood. Waste of good balsa, in my opinion..

Bill Little · Apr 04, 2004 10:26 PM

RE: Wings - Foam versus built up - Which is lighter?#3 source
Isky, I would use the hard C grain on the trailing edge area. I would believe, however, that with today's airfoils for stunt it would really be a pain to bend.

Ion, in my experiences with foam wings in stunt applications they have always come out heavier than ones built up with good wood. Of course you know that the foamies really have some advantages that, to some fliers, make the extra weight a non issue.
As to 1/32, it is often easier to get 1/32 wood that is lighter (per sheet, heavier grade), but just as strong, or stronger, than the 1/16.
Bill <><
Just an Old Advanced flyer.

Howard Rush · Apr 04, 2004 11:45 PM

RE: Wings - Foam versus built up - Which is lighter?#5 source
Bob Hunt made me some very nice 1/32"-sheeted foam combat wings long ago, so 1mm can work.

Light, A-grain balsa would be the first choice. A grain bends better than C, of course. There is also the matter of with what you would finish them. You have to be really careful ironing MonoKote with only 1/32" of insulation. I would worry about solvent penetration if finishing with dope. See Godzilla for an alternative.

raglafart · Apr 05, 2004 02:06 AM

RE: Wings - Foam versus built up - Which is lighter?#6 source
Ion
We used to fly 1/2A pylon racers with foam wings and sheeted with 1/32 balsa. They can be made very light and very strong especially with the judicious use of some carbon here and there and a couple of blade type spars through the centre joint. The wings came out at about 180 grams finished including the aileron servo
Most people use way too much glue when doing the sheeting and not paying enough attention to sanding the cores prior to laminating the skins and also preparing flat finish sanded skins, also prior to laminating.
Never ever use any glue other than epoxy to laminate, we used to use either West or Z poxy laminating resin to glue the skins on with. Everything else winds up too heavy, especially contact addhesive. Also if you use Epoxy it eliminates any hassle with your surface finish.
Some guys would even pre dope the balsa skins to prevent to much epoxy being taken up by the wood. I never bothered, but the rules are never ever to put the epoxy onto the foam. Just spread it out all over the skins with a scraper. A little heat will make it flow out. Once you've got the whole skin wet you have to try and scrape it all off again. If you see any wet shinny spots then you still have too much epoxy! We used to use old business cards or playing cards or a bit of Mylar sheet as scrapers. Remember, you are only bonding to beads of foam after all.
Give it a go, especially if you've got a good source of 1/32 sheet. An all balsa construction is probably going to be a little lighter, but it depends on what you're looking to achieve and how easily.
I covered mine with the German heat shrink covering, Profilm. Never had any problems with the heat and I'd heavily sanded the nominal 1/32" skins. Did it in the clear as it was the lightest and found that the K&B Super poxy paint adhered well to the covering. What a great paint, pity you can't still get it.
Cheers John

icerinkdad · Apr 05, 2004 09:10 PM

RE: Wings - Foam versus built up - Which is lighter?#12 source

>Some guys would even pre dope the balsa skins to prevent to
>much epoxy being taken up by the wood. I never bothered, but
>the rules are never ever to put the epoxy onto the foam.
>Just spread it out all over the skins with a scraper. A
>little heat will make it flow out. Once you've got the whole
>skin wet you have to try and scrape it all off again. If you
>see any wet shinny spots then you still have too much epoxy!
>We used to use old business cards or playing cards or a bit
>of Mylar sheet as scrapers. Remember, you are only bonding
>to beads of foam after all.

I have used Probond polyurethane glue using the same techniques as epoxy with very good results. Do a web search and you will find several RC pattern guys who have instructions on their web sites. Also you might call SIG and see if they have any contest grade 1/20th sheet in stock. A bit easier to work with than the 1/32 and a bit lighter than the 1/16...

Bob Furr

"See ya in the circle!"

peabody · Apr 05, 2004 06:00 AM

#7 source
Ion:
I am of the belief that a FINISHED foam wing can be lighter than a built pu version....especially if the builder is judicial with his wood selection (1/20" works well). Tissue takes less paint / fill materials when over wood than open bays.

I have mused this, and have asked those that keep honest weight logs and have seen figures from several that verify my opinion.

This is assuming that a high quality dope finish is applied.

See Ya

Peabody

Ion Muniz · Apr 05, 2004 06:58 AM

#8 source
Isky, John, Bill, Howard and Peabody:

Thanks a 1,000,000!

I got a lot more than I bargained for!

Each reply had something I didn't know.

If replys keep coming in I'll soon have a Phd. in foam wings...

And each minute I'm gettin' more sold on the idea of using foam on my Chizler.

Bob Hunt gave up foam and went back to built up wings, but I can't build like Bob Hunt

On the other side Igor Burger uses only foam on his models, and he is - by no means - a lousy builder.

Either is Dan Winship, who has developed techniques to make 'em lighter. He cuts the wings, skins them with epoxy using a vacum bag and only then cuts the cores. He says in his homePage that this allows him to remove more foam when cuttin the cores without compromising strenght.

Bill Werwage is a "built up" guy, but since he is, acording to Bobby - the lightest builder in the planet - he can afford to do it.

I'm convinced (after reading all these replys) that foam wings will not be a wheight problem, and I'll be relatively free of any warping troubles.

Ion

F4FGuy · Apr 05, 2004 12:30 PM

#9 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ion:

ALL my airplanes,except my oldtimers,are foam winged.I cut my own cores and sheet with 1/32" 4-6# A grain.My most recent F4F-3 used no balsa,as it was carbon skinned.Structurally, I've never seen a need for any kind of spar,other than the clips for wing mounted gear,foam left in after coring is adequate for all other purposes. The loads on the wing are resolved as tensile and compressive loads in the skins.The spar is a compressive member the function of which is to keep the skins from buckling.On the subject of coring,the wing MUST be cored,and this must be done after sheeting.Doing otherwise will give a wing that's poorly bonded and probably one that's warped.Getting back to weight,there's no inherent reason a foam wing should be heavier than a conventional built-up wing.But,to an even greater extent than built-up,execution is key.Material selection, adhesive application,the manner in which the skins are joined,how and how much, pressure is applied to bond the skins,all can be critical.
The end result,a wing that is straight,and stays that way,and is practically bulletproof.

Afterthought:Join all the skins so that grain runs parallel to the leading edge.
Be absolutely sure there are NO gaps in the skin joints,and that NO force is necessary to pull them together.
Glue all the skins together before skinning the cores
Sand the cores and vacuum them before sheeting.
Do all the sanding of the skins and vacuum them BEFORE skinning the cores.
If you vacuum bag the skin application(as I do),do not exceed .5 -.7 ATM or you'll crush the cores.

Ron B.

Ion Muniz · Apr 05, 2004 03:03 PM

#10 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ion:

ALL my airplanes,except my oldtimers, are foam winged. I cut my own cores and sheet with 1/32" 4-6# A grain. My most recent F4F-3 used no balsa,as it was carbon
skinned.

That should be neat, but carbon mat costs an awful lot of money down here…

Structurally, I've never seen a need for any kind of
spar,other than the clips for wing mounted gear,foam left in after coring is adequate for all other purposes. The loads
on the wing are resolved as tensile and compressive loads in the skins.The spar is a compressive member the function of which is to keep the skins from buckling.

The only foam wing I ever dealt with was in a kit I bought from Bill Hopkins (Custom Models), a Bucaneer 740. No spars were in the plans, the only reinforcement was 2 or 3" of fiberglass cloth around the junction, I guess that’s what you’d call a "tensile member".


On the subject of coring,the wing MUST be cored, and this must be done after sheeting.Doing otherwise will give a wing that's poorly bonded and probably one that's warped. .

I can’t do that, Ron, I don’t cut wings so I’ll have to work with a cored wing from the beginning. I’d glue the skins with thin epoxy, using some adhesive tape to hold them is place. I just gotta make sure the pressure aplied is stong enough to ensure a complete adhesion of all the skin area but not so strong that it would distort the wing. As far as joining the panels, if I use a 100% flat surface and use the cradles, I don’t see why would I get a poor bond.


Getting back to weight, there's no inherent reason a foam wing should be heavier than a conventional built-up wing. But, to an even greater extent than built-up, execution is key. Material selection, adhesive application,the manner in which the skins are joined,how and how much, pressure is applied to bond the skins,all can be critical.
The end result, a wing that is straight,and stays that
way, and is practically bulletproof.

If by "bulletproof" you mean a wing that will take the aerodynamic pressure of a sharp pullout from a wingover you just said what I want. But I ain’t looking for no "crashproof" items, I might not be a champ, but I want a plane built to be flown, not crashed.

Afterthought: Join all the skins so that grain runs parallel
to the leading edge.

That’s right, I’m hip to this one…

Be absolutely sure there are NO gaps in the skin joints,and
that NO force is necessary to pull them together. .

I think I can handle that too, Ron. I’ll need a sandbar as long as the panels; tack the skins together and sand them, to ensure a no gap fit. Then I tape’em together, "open the door", aply CA and lay them on a flat surface, with the tape facing down.
BTW –
a) do you use CA?
b) Would it be smart to sand/bevel them at a 45º angle to have more joining area?


Glue all the skins together before skinning the cores
Sand the cores and vacuum them before sheeting.
Do all the sanding of the skins and vacuum them BEFORE
skinning the cores.

Ça vas sans dire…
If you vacuum bag the skin application (as I do),do not
exceed .5 -.7 ATM or you'll crush the cores.

Not this time, but if I really like them foam wings I might get me a vacuum pump.

Thanks, Ron!

Ion



F4FGuy · Apr 05, 2004 08:05 PM

#11 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ion:

The reason for coring AFTER sheeting is to ensure proper bonding over the entire surface.If you Sheet it after the cores are cut,the foam will deflect under the sheeting and have a much lower bondline pressure than necessary to get a good bond all over.this will also produce a depression in these areas.If you cannot do the coring ,I strongly recommend buying the cores already sheeted.About the best you can do if the panel is already cored,is to shove the cores into the panel as far as they'll go.this will take up the"tret"of the cut to some degree,but will leave the root areas unsupported.Taping will not give anywhere near the pressure required.If you don't vaccuum bag,you need to put the sheeted cores back in the "shucks" and pile on books,magazines,bricks ,cinder blocks,mortuary headstones ...............,well,you get the picture,to get an EVEN pressure of about 10 pounds per SQUARE INCH of area.This is why vacuum bagging is such a good idea.
I don't use CA for edge bonding skins for several reasons;it's heavy,it's hard to control(thin),it'heavy,it's hard to sand,it's heavy,it's brittle ,and it's heavy.Oh,did I mention it's heavy?
I generally use Ambroid,Sigment,or DUCO,sometimes aliphatic resin wood glue.
The bevel idea is interesting,but it adds another area of required accuracy which I feel is not necessary.

Ron B.

Ion Muniz · Apr 05, 2004 11:52 PM

#15 source
>Ron B.
>F4Fguy
>
>Ion:
>
>The reason for coring AFTER sheeting is to ensure proper
>bonding over the entire surface.If you Sheet it after the
>cores are cut,the foam will deflect under the sheeting and
>have a much lower bondline pressure than necessary to get a
>good bond all over.this will also produce a depression in
>these areas.If you cannot do the coring ,I strongly
>recommend buying the cores already sheeted.About the best
>you can do if the panel is already cored,is to shove the
>cores into the panel as far as they'll go.this will take up
>the"tret"of the cut to some degree,but will leave the root
>areas unsupported.Taping will not give anywhere near the
>pressure required.If you don't vaccuum bag,you need to put
>the sheeted cores back in the "shucks" and pile on
>books,magazines,bricks ,cinder blocks,mortuary headstones
>...............,well,you get the picture,to get an EVEN
>pressure of about 10 pounds per SQUARE INCH of area.This is
>why vacuum bagging is such a good idea.
>I don't use CA for edge bonding skins for several
>reasons;it's heavy,it's hard to control(thin)>only kind I ever use],it'heavy,it's hard to sand,it's
>heavy,it's brittle ,and it's heavy.Oh,did I mention it's
>heavy?
> I generally use Ambroid,Sigment,or DUCO,sometimes aliphatic
>resin wood glue.
> The bevel idea is interesting,but it adds another area of
>required accuracy which I feel is not necessary.

Ron, this is starting to become like a hungarian short story I once read:

This blacksmith that lived in the countryside has such a steady hand the he performed eye surgerys on the local peasants with his jacknife.

When the doctors from the University of BudaPest heard about this phenomenal man the sent for him, in order to see if it was realy true.

They brought him a guy that needed badly an operation to save his eyesight, and in a couple of minutes the blacksmith pulled out his blade, sharpened it on his boots and ZAM!, the man's right eye was OK.

The doctors were amazed but also indignant, and asked him if he had the slightest idea of the dangers off such a procedure. They told him about the crystalline, the cornea, and all those technical terms.

Well, when it was time to do the other eye the blacksmitht had completely lost his legendary steadyness of hand.

In other words, you are starting to scare me with this vacuum pump thing, I don't have one, I don't know anybody in Brazil thay has one and people have been skining foam wings for quite a while.

My best bet would be to get the wings with the cores already cut but NOT removed, aplly the glue to the skins and put my interlinear new Testament Commentaries on top of the whole thing, I guarantee you is very HEAVY literature, and will certainly do the job...

Ion


F4FGuy · Apr 10, 2004 02:29 AM

#24 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ion:

Your parable notwithstanding,the primary reason for foam wings is accuracy.Contrary to popular opinion,they are definitely NOT simpler to do WELL than a built up wing.If you want it light,straight,and smooth enough to take a finish without a lot of filler to fix raised joint lines and skelotoning over the cores,then you're going to have to put in the effort to do it right.Especially if you want it to be really light.Sure,there's a learning curve,but if you invest the time and effort you'll end up with a superior wing.

By the way you'll need about twenty or thirty of those tomes evenly distributed on top of the shucks to get to 10 pounds per square inch.

Ron B.

Ion Muniz · Apr 10, 2004 08:25 AM

#25 source
Come on, Ron,

while you were preaching about the dedication one needs in order to get a pecise, light and good looking foam wing I was droolin' over that TEKOA foam cuting business...

Tell me, what kind of compressor would I need to seriously squeeze a skin into the wing?

A foam core doesn't get crushed under atmospheric pressure, but once it's in a bag and vacuum is formed it should be under 1 atmospere.

How does that translate into numbers, I mean, 1 atmosphere is how many pounds per sq"?

Ion (skin'em) Muniz

F4FGuy · Apr 10, 2004 12:19 PM

#26 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-10-04 AT 12:31 PM (CDT)
 
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ion:

1 Atm.= 14.7 PSI @ sea level @ 60 deg.F.= 0.00 PSI guage pressure
.5 ATM= 7.35 PSI @ sea level @ 60 deg F.= -7.35 PSI guage pressure
.7 ATM= 10.3 PSI @ sea level @ 60 deg F.= -10.3 PSI guage pressure
Note re your comment about the foam already being at 1 ATM,these are Negative pressures.

If you pull much over .5ATM,you will seriously compress the foam(I assume you're using 1# bead foam),and crush the corners at the root and tip.For balsa to foam with epoxy or contact cement,the vacuum should be ~.25-.35ATM.The least expensive pump you can buy should be sufficient,since this is a very low quality vacuum.

By the way,I noticed another post recommended 3M77.In my experience it's just barely OK.If you insist on spray contact cement,3MSpray Trim Adhesive Part # 051135-08074,has much better tack,strength,and life.Per the other post,only a very light application is required.

And,finally who are you to twit me on preaching?????

Ron B.

Ion Muniz · Apr 10, 2004 03:03 PM

#27 source
"And, finally who are you to twit me on preaching?????

Ron B."

Ron, Ron, that was below the belt...

I know my mention to your preaching might have sounded like a "get off my back,Ron!", but I can guarantee you it was NOT the case.

I have a million bad qualities, and some good habits (those you can count on the finges of one hand), one of them being to listen to a guy if, like we say in Brazil, he "kills the snake and shows the stick".

In other words, if a cat has RESULTS that show he's good at something, I LISTEN to what he says, even if at first what he says happens to go against my grain.

When I first heard of vacum bagging foam wings I thought it was just one of those crazy ideas, after all 3M works so fine, etc.

Next thing, here comes this F4 guy also talkin' about vacum bagging, and right when I had it all figured out.

I didn't like it at all, but having seen the fantastic things you have done, from those gorgeous weathered down models to the fiberglass fuselages and a lot more, I had to stop and tell myself: "Ion, you've seen what this cat can do, you better listen to what he says."

So, all of a sudden here am I, looking at compressors and foam cutting tools...

Ion (I got more than I bargained for) Muniz

F4FGuy · Apr 11, 2004 07:21 PM

#28 source
>
>Ron, Ron, that was below the belt...
>
>I know my mention to your preaching might have sounded like
>a "get off my back,Ron!", but I can guarantee you it was NOT
>the case.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

OK,Ion,maybe I overreacted.

What I was trying to say was that a foam wing can be built with no weight penalty.

Yes you can cover with 1/32" or 1mm,I've been doing it for years,but don't use "C" grain and don't use anything over 6#/cu.ft. Do ALL sanding before laminating,except LE&TE.

Use epoxy or contact,both can do a fine job,if used sparingly.I haven't tried it,but I'm told by people I trust,that aliphatic resin glue works well also.

I've been cutting and sheeting foam wings since the early sixties and the only in flight non-crash failure I've ever had was caused by delamination of a 3M77 sheeted surface.Post crash,it was apparent that insufficient bonding pressure had produced a poor bond in a critical area near the high point,allowing the skin to buckle.I've seen other failures due to the same cause.Hence my reluctance to recommend 3M77.

I no longer use bead foam.I use 2#/cu.ft."Spider Foam"it's about four times as strong as bead foam in compression,and allows coring to a thinner wall without compromising strength.Also,unlike bead foam,it's porous,allowing the adhesive to penetrate the foam.Yes,it's also half again more expensive.Lately I've been doing some work with EP foams(the Zeke22 tail surfaces)these are promising,but need more testing for our purposes.

Ron B.

Howard Rush · Apr 11, 2004 08:34 PM

#30 source
I'm really interested in your no-balsa foam wings. What sort of carbon did you use? What resin? I've used 1/2-oz. mat and Shell Epon 815. The surface was OK, but dented pretty easily.

A different subject: I spent the afternoon digging foam out of the inside of my wing near the root to put some reinforcement on the inside surface of the balsa skin. A crack developed just outboard of the body that goes from about 10% chord on the upper surface to 30% chard on the lower surface. The crack opens way up when I flex the wing. I guess I was about one wingover away from having the wing blow off. My suspicion is that I sanded the skin down to about a micron thick when I was blending in the fillet. It did hold up for a few years, though.

godzilla · Apr 11, 2004 10:03 PM

#32 source
The crack opens way up when I flex the wing.
>I guess I was about one wingover away from having the wing
>blow off. My suspicion is that I sanded the skin down to
>about a micron thick when I was blending in the fillet. It
>did hold up for a few years, though.

That is why I recommend several coats of PC in the area of the fillet before applying the fillet material. It creates a very tough surface that is nearly impossible to cut through while sanding. I also recomend blending the fillet with something besides sandpaper.

I have only folded one foam wing and is SHEARED at the fuselage. It never splits in the center from what I have seen. Now I use generous fillets on both sides of the fuselage (inside and out). I have actaully had more trouble keeping the belcrank rod anchored (but then, I am an idiot).

There will eventually be a solution to the "no balsa" foam wing. The problem appears to be the "thickness" verses surface hardness issue. Even titanium at only a few mils thickness dents real easy. From the tests that Bill Wilson has done, there will be a need for some kind of "skin core" beneath the cloth to prevent the surface denting. Something that truly replaces the balsa. I have heard some interesting ideas. Toilet paper was good one...

Ion,

Foam wings cannot be built light enough. The only suitable use for foam is losing it. Just kidding.

The City Smasher

captcurt · Apr 09, 2004 07:05 AM

#21 source
Hi Ron:

On your carbon skinned wing, did you make up the skins flat first? Then applied them as a sub for the balsa in the normal way---Or did you apply the carbon as fabric and use a "molding skin" like mylar to get the surface finish?

Have you written up the whole process elsewhere?

Thanks

Curt

F4FGuy · Apr 10, 2004 02:12 AM

#23 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Curt;

I applied the carbon to a .010 mylar carrier sheet and wrapped the whole works around the core.The core was the full wing section,including flaps which are cut loose after forming.There was no balsa involved the mylar/carbon went from TE,around the LE,and back to the TE.There was a second strip ~1/4"w. between the TEs to give some "beef" to the TE,but still leaving it very sharp.All coring was done after bagging.These wings (685-725sq.in.) finish out at about 9-9.5oz.with BC and LOs,unpainted.Unless you pull too much vacuumand make them porous,they are ready for color as molded(less tips,that's another story for another time).

Ron B.

captcurt · Apr 12, 2004 07:18 AM

#33 source
THanks Ron:

What layup schedule?

This sounds essentially the same as the (defacto) standard method for large model sailplane wings. And you can use fairly high density foam for the cores since you remove it all anyway.

Ever think of making a plywood and epoxy male mold and using the same layup and bag method? A tapered wing could be made that way with tips molded at the same time.

Curt

F4FGuy · Apr 12, 2004 04:47 PM

#34 source
A>THanks Ron:
>
>What layup schedule?
>
>This sounds essentially the same as the (defacto) standard
>method for large model sailplane wings. And you can use
>fairly high density foam for the cores since you remove it
>all anyway.
>
>Ever think of making a plywood and epoxy male mold and using
>the same layup and bag method? A tapered wing could be made
>that way with tips molded at the same time.
>
>Curt

Ron B.
F4Fguy

I use .2oz.mat both carbon and kevlar the first lam is full from TE to TE(incidentally I don't have a formal LE or TE,the laminate goes all the way around the foam).The second is an ellipse about2/3width and 1/3 half span top and bottom.The third is kevlar,two lams on the LE only,extending to the 20% point(also the HP on the foil I'm using) at the root and to about 10% at the tip.The kevlar is for toughness to avoid the brittleness of a straight carbon laminate.This gives a wing that's no more subject to hanger rash than a 1/32 balsa one,especially with the Spider Foam.You can take more of the foam than with bead foam ,but you still need a fair wall to give support between spars.This is a MUCH thinner layup than the glider guys use,at least the ones I know of.

As to a male mold,my Macchi202 wing was done on a male plug.The mat lay up at this thickness is'nt stiff enough in bending by itself.I finalli ended up with a carbon/1/20"balsa/carbon layup.this was very efficient both structurally and weight-wise,but was very labor intensive.It required laminated main and secondary spars and four laminated ribs to get acceptable skin support.There's a photo of this structure somewhere in the past posts on molded balsa.It was also written up by Frank McMillan in the M.A.stunt column sometime in 1995.

Molding in tips;I don't know.Seems to me you'd have a very difficult pull.My tips lately are 1/20" molded balsa.I don't think you can make them any lighter.

Ron B.

Bill Little · Apr 12, 2004 05:29 PM

#35 source
Hi Ron,
Please tell me how you get the leading edge radius when molding those tips! And, how many pieces are there in those tips, not counting the rib?
Thanks!
Bill <><

P.S. haven't forgotten the Avenger, just have to finish up a couple projects so that I can get into it.

Just an Old Advanced flyer.

F4FGuy · Apr 12, 2004 06:15 PM

#36 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-04 AT 06:16 PM (CDT)
 
>Hi Ron,
>Please tell me how you get the leading edge radius when
>molding those tips! And, how many pieces are there in those
>tips, not counting the rib?
>Thanks!
>Bill <><
>
>P.S. haven't forgotten the Avenger, just have to finish up
>a couple projects so that I can get into it.
>
>Just an Old Advanced flyer.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Bill:

As AL is fond of saying just wet it and bend it!Seriously though, you do need to be careful of both grain and weight of balsa.~5# A grain,and it has to be thoroughly soaked.Over night is best,and kept submerged.The real trick is to do it in sections so that there's minimal compound curve.If you look closely you can see the seam about 1/3 back of the line guide slot.The tip is molded in two pieces top and bottom with a rib at the base and about at the seam line.It has two "sorta"spars fore and aft of the line guide.Everything is blessed (made holey)as much as possible.The mold is a piece of 1/16" balsa with Spider Foam on each side,carved and sanded to shape.Plenty good enough for several tips,although after two wings,and a couple of botched attempts it was pretty ratty.

In the spirit of the present rage for tag lines:
If it don't look like a real airplane,why bother???

Ron B.

Ion Muniz · Apr 05, 2004 10:45 PM

#13 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-04 AT 11:10 PM (CDT)
 
A Stuka Stunt buddie was kind and thoughtful enough to send me a link where I ran isto this picture I hope will sppearm, PLUS some instructions:

Hollow the Nobler wing to 3/8 in. walls. Use a top and bottome spar of 3/16 in. balsa with a joiner at the center and shear webs midspan and at the tip. Probably a 5/16 in. sq. trailing edge.

Fill the foam with lightweight filler(not absolutely necessary). Cover with light plastic covering(helps protect the wing from hangar rash) buff the covering and cover the whole thing with OO silkspan and urethane varnish, either water-base or oil base. You can even use regular varnish if you can't find anything else. Let it dry well, sand thoroughly and you will have a base finish similar to 1/32 balsa that has been filled and doped about 20 coats.

Problem is I don't know what is this "light plastic covering"...

Anyone ever tried this method?

Ion

Iskandar Taib · Apr 05, 2004 11:27 PM

#14 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-04 AT 11:31 PM (CDT)
 
Yeah, that's Phil's internal I-beam wing. He does that because he doesn't want the spar showing on the wing's surface after finishing.

http://home.earthlink.net/~philcartier/

Ion, you should try cutting foam yourself. It's fun, and it's cheap, and best of all, you can cut any sort of wing to suit yourself. If you ruin some cores in the process, no big deal, foam is cheep. Looking for sources of foam is also interesting - it turns out there were about 5 or 6 foam factories within an hour's drive from here and I visited one. Very impressive - huge, 16 foot blocks of foam. Kinda like visiting Stonehenge. Ended up filling up the car with 10 sheets of 2" thick foam. Ought to last for a while.

bigseminole · Apr 06, 2004 07:03 AM

#16 source
You know, thats a good question and I must say that youve gotten at leaste a couple of good answers already. Still, I thaught that I'd throw in my two pesos worth.

Having built a big bunch of foam wings and cut a few for other modelers, I'd say that IN GENERAL (And almost allways!) a foam wing will be heavier when finished, than a built up structure.

The last time I had this conversation with Bob Hunt he said the same thing, as have Jim Greenaway, Winfred U. and a raft of others. I have found this to be true in my own aircraft but I still prefer foam wings. Why?

1) A foam wing can be built straight almost 100% of the time.
2) If you build a straight foam wing it'll stay that way forever. If forever is too long to contemplate, I'll just say For the rest of your life. OK?
3) You can build a foam wing VERY quickly.
4) They are a snap to finish. (Just try putting a super-duper dope finish on a built up wing and a foam one. Keep track of your hours and compare!)
5) Foam wings are less likly to suffer damage in day-to-day use.
6) When damaged, they are FAR easier to repair.
7) Once you know what youre doing, it is entirely possible to build most models LIGHT ENOUGH that the extra weight won't matter. There are plenty of builders who are capable enough that weight, in general, is not much of a concern.

The fact is, that most non-expert builders weigh down thier models with too much glue, too much paint and use wood that is far to heavy to acheive a result that could be considered 'light'. I won't even address the idea that one should build something strong enough to survive a crash!

Select your wood carefully, refrain from overbuilding, use only enough glue to hold things together and sand everything including the paint.

If you still crash a lot I would definately reccomend a foam wing, simply because you'll need several aircraft to reach the no-crash zone and foam wings build faster than a built-up structure, though the latter may be more repairable.

Once you reach the point where your planes last a year, or two, or three, or more, you'll be at a place where your building methods will be left up to style or persomal choice. There are plenty of guys who build one plane a year and still have a basement full of "Old planes".

If you want to build a light foam wing, try these tried and true instructions. Some of this technology comes from Bob Hunt and others and some comes from my experience.

1) Buy a wing from one of the several experienced cutters listed. In fact, buy a couple of the same design.
2) Have your wing triple cored.
3) Make up your skins using the tape/CA glue method.
3) I make up my skins using 1/16th X 4lb Balsa with the Frontmost grain running parallel to the LE.
4) Block sand the sheeting evenly. (I use 320 and just sand it untill it's about 1/20th thick and super smooth. In other words, just sand it till you think that its too thin and then stop. It'll be just about right! Try NOT to sand the sheeting after it's applied to the core. If you do, be very careful!
5)Use 3-M adhesive to attach the skins. I have used epoxy for skinning but have had my best, lightest results using 3M Spray Adhesive. It weighs almost nothing and properly applied (Very sparingly!), will hold for many Years.)
6) Remember to vacume the sanding dust from your sheeting. Then vacume your cores before spraying the glue and placing your core in the saddle. Then, apply the skin smoothing it down with a towel. Complete one side, at a time. Pay attention.
7) Make sure that the sheeted skins are centered in the saddles. Place the saddles on a FLAT surface and weigh them down with a few books for several hours or overnight.

Next day you can install your control system, join the wing halves, glass the center section, sand the glass and install your leadout guide and tips. If you dont get too fancy, you'll have a finished wind in two building sessions. Try THAT with a Nobler wing! A few of you guys can build a ribbed wing that fast but not many. Of course, an I-Beam will build that fast but man, sanding those rib bays... LOL!!!

If youre really smart, you'll assenble, silkspan, fill and primer your foam wing before installing it in the fuselage. If you build and prefinish your airframe as parts, before assembling the plane, you will find most of the building chores much easier to accomplish and easier to do better.

Furthermore, if you prefinish your components and keep track of the weights, you'll be well on the way to knowing in advance when you are building a porker! It's a lot less discouraging to throw away a wing or a tail section, than to have to build an entire new airplane because of overweight construction.

Bagging you wing is a good idea, though I don't know anyone who has felt the need to invest in that technology. Cutting your own wings is neat too but if your experience is similar to mine, you'll cut a bunch of wings before you cut a bunch of GOOD wings. I can cut as well as anyone but it's worth my time to just shell out a few dollars and buy a nice core ready made. Borrow someones foam rig and try it out before investing your money. Then do as you like. It's a hobby, right?

LASTLY. Light weight isnt everything. Every model has a WEIGHT RANGE in which it flys best. GA said that all of the really good Noblers that he saw, weighed between 46oz and 52oz with a Fox 35. He said that the heavier Noblers have better penetration and therefore fly better. Who am I to argue? I have one that came in at less than 38oz with a high zoot dope finish. GA told me that it wouldnt fly worth a darn and he was right. I'm more and more tempted to take his advice and spray on a few more ounces of clear and buff it up. I'm convinced that it would make for a nicer flying, more stable model. Right now it's just a beautiful office decoration!

Good luck with your building!

Bigs

bigseminole · Apr 08, 2004 11:02 PM

#17 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-04 AT 00:00 AM (CDT)
 
Well, well....

Today i went down to my local news stand and took a look at RCM Magazine.

If you want to take a look yourself, you will find instructions for sheeting a foam wing that closely follow the instructions that I left above. Since the mag. article has photos, it will make several of the smaller details quite clear.

Just make sure that if you are concerned about weight, that you use REALLY GOOD WOOD and stick to the 3-M spray glue.

Have fun,

Bigs

PS: I just moticed that you edited your msg and made it a much more focused question.

In answer:
Yes, I think that if you use a foam wing, built lightly and with a really good finish (That means with most of the paint and filler sanded off during the finishing process.) and then compare it to a built up wing of identical dimensions and subjected to the same build and finishing standards, the foam wing will be heavier. How much? I dunno... A couple of ounces or so depending on sq. in.

BUT... If you are really careful with wood selection, construction and finish weight, I KNOW that you could make your target WEIGHT RANGE and have a "Third row" finish using a foam wing. Thats with a silkspan/dope paint job. The question is whether you are up to the task of stringing all of those little details together and do enough SANDING to end up where you want to be, weight wise, at buff out time...

Finally: Quit worrying about the weight and concern yourself with building/finishing skills. Usually, our planes get better looking, better flying and lighter as we become more experienced/skilled.

You've asked the right questions. Now, go build your next plane and see what works for you!

B.

Howard Rush · Apr 11, 2004 08:06 PM

#29 source
"If you are really careful with wood selection, construction and finish weight, I KNOW that you could make your target WEIGHT RANGE and have a "Third row" finish using a foam wing."

Second row, even.

Ion Muniz · Apr 08, 2004 11:57 PM

#18 source
Thanks, Seminole!

Lemme just warn you:

There's a LOT of guys that are very much against using 3M77, so be careful,orelses besides the 2 pesos you might have to leave acouple of beaver skins, if not your scalp...

Ion

bigseminole · Apr 09, 2004 12:37 AM

#19 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-09-04 AT 01:08 AM (CDT)
 
Ion!

I know. It's sad all this scalping and shooting going on but here's the thing...

1) Take a flat sheet of foam 1/4 X 3 x 6 and cut it into two pcs. Weight match them using your gram scale. (You do have a gram scale, right?)

2) Take a sheet of 1/16 sheet and cut them to match the pcs of foam. Weight match them with your gram scale as well.

3) Adhere one balsa skin using epoxy. Make sure that you perform the work properly, using as little glue as you can. Scrape of as much of the epoxy as you can before adhering the skin to the foam.

4) Do the same using the 3-M77. It won't take mugh spray glue at all and if you do it using Bob Hunt's method, most of the glue will end up being blown out of your shop window. LOL!!! (Don't breath the fumes!)

5) Come back the next day and weigh them.

6) Try to remove the sheeting from either foam core.

6) Make your own informed descision.

I learned my stuff from a BUNCH of experts who preceeded me, starting with Jim Silhavy and Jerry Cipra's dad Abe. I have also learned through my own experience. Building, crashing and asking questions of the experts who are around now.

We all know that there are lots of ways to build toy airplanes. If you or anyone else wants to build your toys some other way than what I suggest, thats fine by me. I'm not here to argue. I'm actualy here to learn something and have an enjoyable time with people who have a real love for controline stunt.

I just know what works for me and what has worked for at least SOME very, very successfuly modelers who have, thankfuly, taken time to teach me how to be a bit more successful in realizing MY goals..

Hopefuly, you have found my comments helpful.

Bigs

Ion Muniz · Apr 09, 2004 02:34 AM

#20 source
Bigs,

Not only I learned a lot from you and the other guys, but I was crazy enough to do a Google search on "foam wings" and I ran into a buzzillion sites covering the subject.

I'm taking the issue so seriously that. since I'm planning to build more than one Chizler I'm almost using a readymade Vector 40 wing I have doin' nothing on my shop.

It spans the same as the Chizler, and the airfoil is just a tad thicker.

With a bird in hand I'll be able to get down on the foam thing without the urge off "I gotta build and fly this thing!"

BTW, I found me a foam cutter here in Rio. He happens to be a real good buddy of mine, he was into stunt for some time, but now that he's doing combat he's cutting foam wings (He's part of the Brazilian combat team, but he won't be able to go because of money problems).

Anyhow, he said that all I gotta do is bring the templates.

But, don't fool tourself, I'm VERY curious about foam wings!

I just downloaded some 8 sites that havegood info on the subject!

As soon as I getthis firest Chizler up and running I'll be able to get me a nice set of foam wings.

God bless you!

In Christ,

Ion (gonna download this whole thread!) Muniz

Ion Muniz · Apr 09, 2004 08:48 AM

#22 source
Just one little thing, Biggs:

(Ion cleans his throath and tries to look ofended)

I would apreciate it a lot if in the future you refrained from sugesting that I might ever build what you call a ... "porker"!

I have never, at no time, built a ship that could be called such thing as a...(ugh!) ...porker.

I am ready to sacrifice a ship's looks in order to keep it at a wing load of 11oz.per square foot, and might even accept 13oz/sq'.

I once bought a half built Nobler that was on it's way to become one.

I went through all troubles you can think of to avoid such disaster.The darn thing ended looking like a Swiss cheese...

At this point a friend of mine that just flies Noblers crashed his last one, and I gave him my *no-more-a-porker-to-be* Nobler, and to my dismay he did such a paint job on it that it really became one! (4 pounds)

With or without a foam wing no 50" ship will leave my shop fatter than 40 oz.

Thank you very much,

Ion (don't build porkers) Muniz

Porker...what an ugly word!!!!!! LOL

Howard Rush · Apr 11, 2004 08:36 PM

#31 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-04 AT 08:39 PM (CDT)
 
"Bagging you wing is a good idea, though I don't know anyone who has felt the need to invest in that technology. "

I do. Well, maybe not the need, but it's fun to play with.

ash · Apr 12, 2004 08:45 PM

#37 source
Howard, I saw the pages about Snort on Preston's website and your construction method strongly resembles a no-balsa method I've been considering for a stunt wing.

Have you ever considered making a stunt wing in a similar manner?

Funny thing is, I developed my design through several generations after taking inspiration from the Son of Snort structure only to end up almost exactly where you started...

This page, for those who have not seen it: http://clcombat.info/snort.html

A.

--Welcome to the only sport where dope is not only legal, but often recommended!

Howard Rush · Apr 12, 2004 10:56 PM

#38 source
A stunt Snort? Oh, my. I hadn't thought of that, but I am impressed by Ron's method. Kevlar has to be in its final shape when it comes out of the mold. You can't sand it; sanding just makes it rougher. He must really be good at molding that stuff.

The main idea of the Snort was to make really accurate airfoils by using female molds. The Snort leading edge mold was a block of NC-machined aluminum. I vacuum-bagged the LE shells in the mold cavity. The leading edge was a 1/8" extruded polystyrene foam shell with 1 oz./square yard Kevlar cloth on either side. It was rigid enough without ribs, but dented easily. I put 1/2-oz carbon mat on the outer surface of some of them, which made the surface less subject to dents. 1 oz./square yard carbon cloth would be a lot better than Kevlar cloth and carbon mat, but I couldn't find any.

F4FGuy · Apr 12, 2004 11:53 PM

#39 source
>A stunt Snort? Oh, my. I hadn't thought of that, but I am
>impressed by Ron's method. Kevlar has to be in its final
>shape when it comes out of the mold. You can't sand it;
>sanding just makes it rougher. He must really be good at
>molding that stuff.
>
>The main idea of the Snort was to make really accurate
>airfoils by using female molds. The Snort leading edge mold
>was a block of NC-machined aluminum. I vacuum-bagged the LE
>shells in the mold cavity. The leading edge was a 1/8"
>extruded polystyrene foam shell with 1 oz./square yard
>Kevlar cloth on either side. It was rigid enough without
>ribs, but dented easily. I put 1/2-oz carbon mat on the
>outer surface of some of them, which made the surface less
>subject to dents. 1 oz./square yard carbon cloth would be a
>lot better than Kevlar cloth and carbon mat, but I couldn't
>find any.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Howard: The kevlar was on the INside of the LE next to the foam.In describing the layup I was refering to the sequence of layup on the mylar carrier sheet,which was then wrapped around the core.It's actually a fairly simple process.By putting the carbon outside,any porosity can be easily filled and the filler sanded off completely without worrying about the dreaded kevlar fuzzies.In actuality,this ends up as pretty much an epoxy coating with fiber reinforcement.Almost anything you can mold to the outside of the foam is going to be as stiff and have better tensile than 1/32" or even 1/16" 5# balsa sheet.By using mat instead of cloth,you get omni-directional properties,and also the ability to use lighter density fibers without orientation problems(and at MUCH lower cost).Do this even half way decently and you can paint right on the roughed up carbon/epoxy surface.

Ron B.

Howard Rush · Apr 13, 2004 12:52 AM

#40 source
I gotta try it. What resin do you use?

F4FGuy · Apr 13, 2004 05:53 AM

#41 source
>I gotta try it. What resin do you use?

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Howard:

Either West Systems or Easy Lam,nothing exotic,but use the slow hardener.

Ron B.

Iskandar Taib · Apr 13, 2004 11:44 PM

#42 source
I remember asking, a long time ago, on this forum, if anyone had tried the fiberglass-directly-over-foam-using-mylar-and-vacuum-bag techniques the glider pilots use to get mirror-smooth wings, but the general consensus seemed to be that it wasn't worth the effort and would be far too heavy. I guess this proves the opposite - done correctly, vacuum bagging directly over foam does work for Stunt.

Where do you get your Spyder Foam? I've only seen it at cstsales.com and I think Superior Balsa. Never locally. The blue Dow Styrofoam and the pink Owens Corning Foamular is available almost everywhere, though. 2 lb cu. ft. beaded foam is also surprisingly strong - almost as strong as the extruded stuff. The Spyder Foam is supposedly just like the blue foam, except it is a LOT more resistant to crushing in the vertical direction. Supposedly a lot of surfboards are made using it, these days.

F4FGuy · Apr 14, 2004 12:25 PM

#43 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Iskandar:

As you've said,blue,and pink extruded foam is stronger than the expanded variety.Spider Foam is the same weight but about twice as strong in compression.I get mine from CST,but occasionally a local surf board maker will have some "drops"that I can use.There's nothing magic about it,I just like the extra "pad" so I don't have to be so careful on vacuum control.I have,on occasion,crushed the blue stuff.Bead foam is a lot softer.EP foams seem to have something to offer,but,so far,I've only used them for tail surfaces,sheeted with 1/32".They aren't much stronger,but are tougher and seem to have more elasticity,so are less vibration sensitive.

I make no claims that this process is a silver bullet,just another way to do a wing that's straight,true to section,and ,if done right,as light as built-up.Some might find it too complicated,I think it's fairly straight-forward.Then again,I already had the equipment so set-up was easy.

I think,if we're going to go farther down this road,we need to start another thread.We've gone WAY off Ion's original query.

Ron B.

captcurt · Apr 14, 2004 01:40 PM

#44 source
I wonder if this topic of non-balsa construction or composite construction in general would make a seperate forum conference topic.

It may be complicated but the way things are going with the apparent non-availability of light balsa, these techniques and materials may become mainstream sooner than we might think.

Curt

Iskandar Taib · Apr 15, 2004 12:15 AM

#46 source
I've always wanted to give this a try - I saw a demo at Toledo by ACP, once, and it looked fairly easy to do. I've got a big roll of drafting mylar lying around, and I'm under the impression it can be used more than once. Just got a quart of laminating epoxy.

By EP foam, do you mean expanded polypropylene (EPP), or just plain old beaded expanded polystyrene? EPP's incredibly tough, and would make good trainers, but I've heard it's almost impossible to glue.

One problem here (Malaysia) is that the blue foam is unobtainable. Sort of a shame, since my RC flying buddies are now flying a lot of small electrics, and the 1/4" DOW fanfold stuff seems to be a standard, cheap raw material for these things. They're using 6mm extruded foam board (what some people call "Depron") from the art supply shops instead. I'm going to try to adapt one of these designs for CL.

So I'm stuck with beaded foam, at least for now. There's a factory about 5 miles from where I live, and they make everything from 3/4 lb. cu. ft. (I use this in my Combat wings) to 2 lb. cu. ft., which is a lot stiffer than the usual 1 lb. cu. ft. Very interesting when I visited them - the stuff comes out of the mold as a 2x4x16 foot block, which, if it is 3/4 lb. cu. ft. weighs 96 pounds. Looks like one of those stones from Stonehenge, but one person can move it using a tip cart. I've seen small vacuum bagged glider wings cored with white foam (S8E Rocket Glider) so I know it can be used.

F4FGuy · Apr 15, 2004 12:35 AM

#47 source
>I've always wanted to give this a try - I saw a demo at
>Toledo by ACP, once, and it looked fairly easy to do. I've
>got a big roll of drafting mylar lying around, and I'm under
>the impression it can be used more than once. Just got a
>quart of laminating epoxy.
>
>By EP foam, do you mean expanded polypropylene (EPP), or
>just plain old beaded expanded polystyrene? EPP's incredibly
>tough, and would make good trainers, but I've heard it's
>almost impossible to glue.
>
>One problem here (Malaysia) is that the blue foam is
>unobtainable. Sort of a shame, since my RC flying buddies
>are now flying a lot of small electrics, and the 1/4" DOW
>fanfold stuff seems to be a standard, cheap raw material for
>these things. They're using 6mm extruded foam board (what
>some people call "Depron") from the art supply shops
>instead. I'm going to try to adapt one of these designs for
>CL.
>
>So I'm stuck with beaded foam, at least for now. There's a
>factory about 5 miles from where I live, and they make
>everything from 3/4 lb. cu. ft. (I use this in my Combat
>wings) to 2 lb. cu. ft., which is a lot stiffer than the
>usual 1 lb. cu. ft. Very interesting when I visited them -
>the stuff comes out of the mold as a 2x4x16 foot block,
>which, if it is 3/4 lb. cu. ft. weighs 96 pounds. Looks like
>one of those stones from Stonehenge, but one person can move
>it using a tip cart. I've seen small vacuum bagged glider
>wings cored with white foam (S8E Rocket Glider) so I know it
>can be used.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Iskandar:Expanded polypropylene is what I meant.I've been looking for a source of large sheets of "Depron".I think it's just what I've been looking for to use instead of balsa in my carbon/balsa/carbon composite wings.

Ron B.

Iskandar Taib · Apr 15, 2004 04:33 AM

#48 source
The real Depron can be found here:

http://www.depronusa.com/

The biggest sheets seem to be 30" x 48". Interestingly enough, the stuff is made in Belgium, and is used for carpet underlayment. According to a letter to the editor in one of the recent Model Aviations, the stuff comes in rolls, and the American importers have a process to flatten it out. In Europe, it's only available in rolls.

DOW makes their blue foam in 1/4" thick sheets, sold as a huge sheet fan folded like a huge roadmap. This might work as well as Depron. Quite cheap and should be available locally (in the US). Another (expensive) alternative is Rohacell - a polyurethane foam used by builders of homebuilts.

Check out:

http://www.foamyfactory.com

F4FGuy · Apr 15, 2004 12:27 PM

#49 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Iskandar:

Thanks for the info.I'm familiar with Rohacell,as you say,very pricy.Several years ago,when I contacted them about 1mm sheets(which they used to market),they said I'd have to buy 100 sheets minimum at $10.00/sht.

Extruded polystyrene has too little compressive strength to keep the skins from buckling.Spider foam is adequate(just),but presents forming problems.

Depron seems to fit the bill if I can get it thin enough.Two mm is too thick for my use.The spars in the photo have a spider foam core from a .050 sheet I cut myself from a 2" sheet.It works fine except I haven't found a way to accurately bend it around a mold to make a wing skin.The skin in the photo is cored with 1/20"balsa.The layup in both cases is .3oz.carbon/core mat'l/.3oz.carbon.

Ron B.

Iskandar Taib · Apr 15, 2004 09:55 PM

#51 source
Wow, that's thin. I always assumed Depron was just another form of extruded polystyrene foam - is this incorrect? If it is, you could hotwire it thinner.

I've seen Rohacell in the various composite materials catalogs, but I don't know about 2mm. There's always the sanding option, don't know how that'd work out.

I suppose there's also end-grain balsa. That's got more compressive strength than any foam, but I imagine it's heavy. I have bought some in the past, sent it to Superior Balsa, and had them sand it down thinner (this was back when I was experimenting with balsa-cored table tennis rackets). And then there's honeycomb, but now we're getting into Howard Rush territory!

Howard Rush · Apr 15, 2004 10:08 PM

#52 source
I'm a king bee, buzzin' 'round your hive.

Ion Muniz · Apr 16, 2004 05:33 AM

#53 source
Ron, on that picture there is a molded wing and a structure.

Is that only a former or it actually goes inside the wing?

If so, what is it made of?

It certainly looks nice...

Ion

F4FGuy · Apr 16, 2004 11:38 AM

#56 source
>Ron, on that picture there is a molded wing and a structure.
>
>Is that only a former or it actually goes inside the wing?
>
>If so, what is it made of?
>
>It certainly looks nice...
>
>Ion

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ion:

The structure is the internal one that goes in the molded skin.Shown are the main spar,secondary spar,flap front spar,and the four ribs.The spars are carbon/spider foam/carbon.as are the ribs.the balsa rib at#3 position was added after the rest of it was done as I felt more support was indicated between #2 and the tip.This wing is the one in my Macchi 202.It's 735 sq.in,and is removeable.Finish painted, with flaps,B.C.,L.O.s,flap horn and pushrod,landing gear(5/32"m.w.and 3 1/4"wheels),tips,line guide and weight box with 1 1/4oz.,it weighs 18oz.The molded components shown weigh 5 oz.,a little over my target of 4 1/4.

Ron B.

ty marcucci · Apr 14, 2004 02:37 PM

#45 source
WOW. What they all said. But have you contemplated doing a saved foam wing?? I have a 52 MAN version Nobler kit from Tom Dixon that has a saved foam wing and it is light. I build heavy, so this is light!! Only the center and leading/trailing edge and about one inch of the tips are covered with balsa. It looks like 1/20", which SIG sells. The foam is triple cored. Worth a look, one more way to "skin" a foam wing.

Proparc · Apr 15, 2004 12:33 PM

#50 source
I have cut quite a few foam wings for myself and still have my foam wing cutting equipment. I have found out that invariably, my foam wings ALWAYS came out heavier than their built-up counterparts. I made my wings like f4F guy, in that I cored them after I sheeted them. I have found foam wings to just as hard to do well as a built-up wing, but the foam wings tend to be more accurate and stay that way permanently. My sense of things is that, if you can build a really light built-up wing, the foam wing of equal weight may not be as strong in our violent plus-minus g regime. That said, the foam wings just cannot be matched for fidelity to airfoil IMHO.

Milton Graham\Proparc

OKCFLYER · Apr 16, 2004 06:26 AM

#54 source
Matter of interest I prefer wing mounted under carriage how do you make wing mounted under carriage mounted strongly attached enough on a foam wing to take the occasional hard landing.

captcurt · Apr 16, 2004 07:22 AM

#55 source
Generally, there is a partial plywood spar extending out to the gear. Then a pair of half ribs attached to that which carry the transverse mounted gear block.

Foam "Pockets" are cut out for clearance.

FWIW

Curt

F4FGuy · Apr 16, 2004 11:56 AM

#57 source
>Generally, there is a partial plywood spar extending out to
>the gear. Then a pair of half ribs attached to that which
>carry the transverse mounted gear block.
>
>Foam "Pockets" are cut out for clearance.
>
>FWIW
>
>Curt

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Here's an illustration.I must say,I think you can eliminate the spar without sacrificing a great deal of durability,by slipping a portion of the front core back in place so that the riblets are supported for their full length.I've been doing this for years without problems.

Ron B.

Ion Muniz · Apr 18, 2004 03:27 PM

Foam versus built up - How heavier#58 source
LAST EDITED ON Apr-18-04 AT 08:50 PM (CDT)
 
RON,
I did it, but ut's too darn small!


I'll ry later

Ion

F4FGuy · Apr 18, 2004 07:54 PM

RE: RE%3A Foam versus built up - How heavier%3F#59 source
>RON,
>
>I TRIED TO POST YOUR PIC, BUT IT DIDN'T WORK..
>
>YET
>
>ION

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ion:

I'm confused(not unusual),which pic?If the one on post#57 it appears to be posted fine.In any case,here it is again.

Ron B.

Ion Muniz · Apr 18, 2004 09:34 PM

RE: RE%3A Foam versus built up - How heavier%3F#60 source
Funny, Ron.

Itdidn'tload on my first atempt.

I also did some cleaning on those dark spots, but it was bigger that 50 kb.

Well, anyhow,no one will somplain for the lack of picson your posting...

Ion

Igor Burger · Apr 19, 2004 06:54 AM

#61 source
Hi Ion, may be late, but look to this os .25 LA powered model with foam wing with 1.5mm sheeting. The final weight is 790g – and I note relatively heavy metallic blue automotive color.

May be you can see the patchwork of the wing skin. It is because I used waste from large sold foam wings. So we have tons of such material.

So do not worry and go for foam.

F4FGuy · Apr 19, 2004 12:39 PM

#62 source
Ron B.
F4Fguy

Nice work!

Ron B.