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Tail area to wing area ratio.

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 12 of 12 known posts recovered

xain · Oct 02, 2001 07:58 AM

#0 source
Hi all,

I've been reading some of the comments about CofG being approximately the same % of MAC as the tail to wing area ratio, and that got me thinking.

On my last plane the stab and elevator where huge, far too large. This time I just guessed at what looked like a sensible ratio, and took the shape from the Nobler.

However, when I look at the ratio it's very small. My wing is 340 squares (38x9 no flaps), but my stab is approx 9" by 2-3" giving 22.5 squares or which half is elevator. This ratio is 6.5%.
If the CofG is often at 15 to 20%, then does it follow that the area ratios should also be 15-20%?

Or is my head just spinning from zooming round on level laps?

Jonathan

Jim T. · Oct 02, 2001 08:20 AM

#1 source
Position of the CG is largely a function of tail volume, which includes both tail area and length of the tail moment arm. Scorrespondence between stab area and cg position in % is somewhat happenstance. Basically, the larger the tail volume, the furthur back the CG can be and still be stable.

Incidentally, I've not done any calculation, but the tail volume of a Flite Streak looks to me a lot less than what one would think it should be. Is this actually the case, and, if so, why do Flite Streaks fly so well?

Jim Thomerson

xain · Oct 02, 2001 08:24 AM

#2 source
Hmmm, and I guess flying wings don't seem to have any problems with manoeverability despite having the elev on the back of the main wing!

Just a theory...
Thanks
Jonathan

PS, I got a 7x4 and 7x3 that I'll try on the PAW when I get a chance...

captcurt · Oct 02, 2001 10:52 AM

#3 source
I believe that the "missing" factor is the moment of inertia about the pitch axis. ie, how is the weight distributed. Leonards' article covers this in his "Is your nose too long". or "The dumbell effect"

Combat planes, Flite Streaks and Gotcha's, Ukeys etc. can get by with relatively small tail volumes since the pitch moments of inertia (nose length) is short.

I would be most interseted in some quantifiable rules in this regard. (see my questions also in the Trimming thread)

Curt

Scott Riese · Oct 02, 2001 11:05 AM

#4 source
As of today I fly and Pa-51 powered Cardinal. However, I went a little different on the stab. I went to 31% stab to wing area. The plane responds very well. Flat bottoms and no bounce out of corners. My first Caldinal ST-51 powered at 26% Stab aera. Fly's very well also. BUT comming out of the corners I hop a little. Most likely Not enough handle time. Both planes fly super. The new plane will have a 28% stab. I like to try new things. Scott

LNeumann · Oct 02, 2001 12:01 PM

#5 source
The tail on Jonathan's plane sounds way too small to me--especially if you are using coupled flaps (are you?)

On the question of CG location, the larger the tail (or aft surface), the farther back you can (and must) locate the center of gravity. An extreme case would be a canard, where the rear "tail" (now the wing) is larger than the front surface and the center of gravity is located entirely behind the front surface (the rear "tail" being 200% bigger or whatever.)

On the comment of making the tail bigger and eliminating the "hop" in the corner, one thing that hasn't been mentioned here is the fact that a heavier airplane needs more flap (or wing for lift) and a lighter airplane needs less flap (or wing for lift). If the wing area remains the same and we are able to build a lighter airframe, then we can either shorten the flaps (make them so they are not full length) or taper them more in order to reduce their effective area. Alternately we can use the same amount of wing and flap but make the elevators bigger to give more elevator throw less movement of the flap or

We can use an adjustable elevator horn which allows us to make changes according to weight without having to resort to cutting into the model or modifying areas.

With an adjustable elevator horn, start with a 1:1 ratio of elevator to flap. If you have too much lift coming out of the corner (the tail isn't swinging, but the airplane is hopping), then crank in a bit more elevator. In effect the elevator movement will remain the same for a given amount of turn, but the flap movement will then become less.

This is another trim area that usually isn't covered in the trim charts, but should be included in any serious stunter. Trimming the flaps may work, but it is much easier to be able to simply adjust the amount of elevator throw in relation to the flap.

Leonard Neumann

Leonard Neumann

xain · Oct 03, 2001 04:40 AM

#6 source
Hi Leonard,
Actually this is a flapless design (if 'design' isn't an overstatement) It seems to have rather open turns, but that may be due to the engine not developing it's full power, and it's a little lardy for the engine. I'm moving from a 7x6 to a 7x4 or 7x3 to get my PAW 09 contest up to power. If that fails to pull the 18oz around the sky then I may need to swap out to a more powerful engine.

Could the tail area lead to open turns? It's still a reasonable size, I guess just not optimal.

Jonathan

LNeumann · Oct 03, 2001 08:01 AM

#7 source
If the plane can't snap a turn, there is something wrong (too much weight/too little area, wrong tail size/placement/amount of throw, cg too far forward, etc.) Evan an underpowered plane ought to be able to turn, although flapless planes seem to need more speed in order to develop enough lift to turn properly.

All this points out to what a lot of people have repeatedly said: Take a proven design and build it. Learn to fly and learn what a good plane flies like. Then (if this is what you want do do) go ahead and design your own. Just remember, when you start comparing a bunch of successful designs, you find a lot of similarities. There are certain changes you can make (in small proportions) and each will result in some slight change in flight characteristics which may or may not have been intentional in the designer's mind. Sometimes we just learn to compensate for "quirks".


Leonard Neumann

Leonard Neumann

xain · Oct 03, 2001 08:10 AM

#8 source
Okay, I guess it's time for me to stop asking silly questions and build a plane that will actually fly. Be warned though... when I decide to build that plane's replacement the questions will start again

I guess I'm just nervous that I'll build *another* plane, and do something wrong that I'm not aware of and get yet another non-turning plane.

Thanks for your help guys. Now I need to decide on a model...

By the way, one of the reasons for my concerns is that my dad (experienced C/L flyer) built a Minilord (25" span) for me and my PAW 09 a long time ago, and even *that* wouldn't turn. I know someone said that mini anything is too small, but I checked the plans, and it reckons ideal engine size is 1.5cc, so I was right on.
So now I'm just unclear of how to be sure I've got a suitable model.

Best regards
Jonathan

Tony G · Oct 03, 2001 03:52 PM

#10 source
Jonathan..do you believe everything you read(pun semi-intended)
That Minilord is hilariously undersized for a 1.49cc
engine....Bare already told you in another thread to
choose models that have wing area in the 250sq" plus
regions...I think you can go as low as 230sq".....
eg: Flitestreak Jr....the PAW 1.49 is a "heavy" .09..
this results in a greater performance penalty when a
smaller model design is chosen...I have a Flitestreak Jr
that has been flown using the PAW 1.49 and a Silver
Swallow .09 and even has flown using a Frog 1.49 diesel
(1956 ver.)...the Jr. Streak flies great with all these
engines... Tony

xain · Oct 04, 2001 12:34 PM

#11 source
Well Tony that's my problem. How am I supposed to know what is a correct model for my motor if I can't believe the gumpf on the box? How can I chose to build the right plane to follow Leonard's advice?

So far I've built ones too small and too large, and some in between, and none of them have been great. So I'm rapidly losing hope.

Best regards
Jonathan

Scott Riese · Oct 03, 2001 10:12 AM

#9 source
Leonard Best advice yet