Miss Sarah vs Tomahawk

Hey Ya'll
I am a sport flyer and I am looking at these two planes as my next project. I want a plane that I can use a .25 engine on and is a profile, built up wing. I would like to start to learn stunts and need a plane that is forgiving. And feed back on these two planes?

Thanks
Paul

I vote for Miss Sarah or better yet a Twister

As for the Miss Sarah vs. Tomahawk...... hmmmm.....

I have had a couple "Miss Sarah" (Goldberg Cosmic Wind) but not a Tomahawk. For a 25 I would probably go with the Tomahawk. The one my buddy had at least "looked" a little smaller, and not quite as "low wing" as the Miss Sarah/Cosmic Wind. It seems I am a *little* odd around here, though, because the Cosmic Wind was my personal favorite stunter of the Goldberg "Trio".

Either should be good.

Greg mentioned a Twister. They ARE great flying planes, but a good bit bigger than either of the two you mentioned. I like a 40 on the Twister.

Bill <><

Well I too am a retread. I have built and flown both. The Tomahawk is no more I'm afraid, but it was a good flier. I still have and love the Miss Sarah. I really don't know about a 25 on a Miss Sarah though. I swapped out from an os 35 to a magnum 40 on my Miss Sarah and couldn't be happier. Great flier and strong in the wind. Eric Rule is a good guy to deal with and I liked his kit but the directions were a bit brief for the new guy. Brodak of course has excellent directions. Another choice in a profile for a 25 would certainly be the super clown by brodak. Fox actually had a good deal on them before Christmas so I don't know if it is still running now. My opinion then is that the Miss Sarah is a much better flier but I don't think the 25 will do it unless you build much lighter than most new builders. Of course if you could get your hands a on a 40...

LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-04 AT 10:47 PM (CDT)
 
OK Guys,
I know it's not your choice but what about the Flight Streak or the Ukey 35. Both are great for learning stunts and not expensive. Nice not to have to put a lot of work into something when your just learning the ropes. And your 25 will pull these around like gangbusters, thru the complete pattern.

Greg,
I agree. The Flite Streak would be one of Ol' Dan's "pukey profiles", sorta.
Can throw the Sig Sky Ray 35 in there, too.
Bill <><

>Well I too am a retread. I have built and flown both. The
>Tomahawk is no more I'm afraid, but it was a good flier. I
>still have and love the Miss Sarah.

Actually, Brodak is making a laser cut version of the 1st series Veco Tomahawk.

>Another choice in a profile for a 25 would
>certainly be the super clown by brodak.

I have a Brodak Super Clown w/ McCoy 29 Red Head, and it is PLENTY of engine for the plane. A 25 (you have an LA don't you?) would be super on it.

Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-04 AT 08:32 AM (CDT)
 
>I am a sport flyer and I am looking at these two planes as my next project. I want a
>plane that I can use a .25 engine on and is a profile, built up wing.

Both are fine for 25's.

>I would like to start to learn stunts and need a plane that is forgiving.
>
The Cosmic Wind is/was slightly larger and quite a lot heavier. From an appearance point of view, the Cosmic Wind (Miss Sarah, same thing) may get more folks' nod as attractive. Neither Tomahawk version was a real looker, although I liked the older one with the P51 empennnage and more flimsy wing better in that regard.

The two Tomahawks were in the 330 to 350 squares range, with the older a bit bigger due to its fixed flaps. I think it's easier to trim a mid-wing plane, and don't usually promote the low wing designs like the Cosmic Wind as aerobatic planes because of the serious vertical CG bias (the one I have now flops around a lot in eights because of that, although I don't recall this being such a severe symptom for a prior one I owned once).

But a 25 is plenty of power for either one. You'll have to define your own usage of "forgiving" to me. I consider planes designed to have a serious excess RESERVE of aerobatic potential to meet that standard because there's a lot more room for recovery that way. That in my opinion makes Streaks qualify as the most forgiving of the popular mid-size unflapped profile "stunt trainers" (and a Force from Mikey even moreso, perhaps -- I have yet to confirn that so far, however).

.

Kiwi

Dare Engineering kits a Sporthawk that is an improved original Tomahawk....more wing area, better moments, etc., yet it retains the look of the original. Much better plane in my opinion unless you're dead set on the original.

I thought I had it down to these two, now I have to look at the Force by Mikey and the Sporthawk, Twister......
I am like a kid in a candy story.

Thanks
Paul

LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-04 AT 04:18 PM (CDT)
 
>I thought I had it down to these two, now I have to look at the Force by Mikey and the
>Sporthawk, (snip!)
>
So far, I haven't seen the Sport Hawk kit in a hobby shop, nor read so very much mention of it being built, so I forgot about it. However, I do want to build a Force, myself. Now, whether you said so specifically or not, this answer of yours at least implies that you and I do agree what "forgiving" might mean in this instance, and I don't think a Cosmic Wind qualifies.

http://showcase.netins.net/web/mikeysmodels/index.html

That's Mikey's web site's URL.
.

Kiwi

If you are considering between the Miss Sara, which we call the Miss Oprah around here for a personal joke, the Tomahawk or the Primary Force for aerobatic training, you should pick the Force. The other two are just sport planes. They can do some manuevers but the Miss Oprah only real calling is as a Foxberg racer and the low wing kinda screws that up from what I hear. The Tomahawk as far as looks? Well I guess everyone has their own opinions, but you know, youch.

The Force though is a modern era Pampa machine designed around the 25 la or 40 if you build that one. Build that one, build two and then invest in fuel.

You want something to break balloons with, then build a Tomahawk, not the Miss Oprah, the built up leading edge won't like the balloon bust sticks.

Ok, For a Miss Sarah what would be your engine pick?

Fox .35
McCoy .35
OS Max .35

Thanks,

Hi finch,

I used both a Fox 35 and a Red Head 35 on my Cosmic Winds. If you have a Fox that has been "touched" so that it doesn't do the "profile burp" it will be fine.
I, personally, liked the McCoy 35. Didn't have a Max 35S back then, but they should work great.
The McCoy is a little "deep" in the crankcase to fit easily into the stock opening. Maybe the Miss Sarah has a little thicker ply fuselage doublers?
Got a Max 35S? If so, go with it. I believe a 35FP would be too heavy.
Bill <><

LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-04 AT 12:40 PM (CDT)
 
My only option is a older Fox .25.

And where can I find a "Force from Mikey"
Paul

Neither of the three, wouldn't build the plane in the first place.

Only option a old Fox 25?? I'm not sure that is an option any of us would like to be faced with. Another option would be a Fox 35 with a new stock piston and sleeve that would also give you the experience of learning how to break in a Fox 35. What do I want????... For you to have fun and to learn the pattern. If your interested send me an address and it can live at your house.

No one mentioned that the Tomahawk is a very fragile ship and won't take the abuse, say a Skyray or Cosmic Wind will. Outboard wings have a problem of falling off on minor pile ins. For a beginner I would recommend a Skyray or even a Flite Streak arf.

I am on a Flight Streak Trainer now was looking at something with a built up wing.

Thanks
Paul

Hi Paul, Uhmm, maybe a regular brodak Flitestreak would be a good next step for you. If you dont mind building models, I think you would really enjoy this ship. Its a lot tougher than the ARF version, and you could always adjust the CG to suit your needs.Flown nose heavy its a very docile plane!! Set the CG on the spar, and you,ll never get bored!! Mine are $koated and fly very well with a Fox 35x and 35 stunt respectively. Once again this only my opinion. Good luck and have fun, < Paul

OK seems like I am being lead to the Flight Streak.
*How do you think a Fox .25 will do on this plane?
*Is one kit better then the other when it comes to FS's. Brodak had very good instructions, have not seen other kits to compare to.

This time I am going add the building tips on PAMPA's site to the build process.
Thanks
Paul

LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-04 AT 11:42 AM (CDT)
 
Personally, I'd just pick whatever design you like best and put a motor I liked fairly close to the design's capacity to deal with it on it and go fly it.
If that means putting something weird like an ETA .29 on a Cosmic Wind, so be it. BLEEP whatever anyone else thinks of your choice- it's your airplane; you need to have something YOU like and are pleased with because YOU have to live with it, or you'll never be happy in the end.

Jake

Yep, I have to agree with Jake. Both models will be solid flyers and I don't think you can go wrong. Choose the one you like the most, building is more fun when your really interested in the plane.

>No one mentioned that the Tomahawk is a very fragile ship
>and won't take the abuse, say a Skyray or Cosmic Wind will.
>Outboard wings have a problem of falling off on minor pile
>ins. For a beginner I would recommend a Skyray or even a
>Flite Streak arf.

I would not recommend FlightStreak ARF to a beginner! The nose will break off at the engine doublers after a VERY gentle nose in. FS ARF has a hollowed out fuse that doesn't do justice to the venerable FlightStreak design.

I suggest you take a look at DARE Design's Sporthawk. It's a lasercut, VERY easy to build version of Tomahawk. I've built one and am VERY happy with it. It is powered by an old, worn out Fox 29 and it flies great! The engine develops less power than most modern .19 size engines yet it pulls the plane with authority. I am sure that it will fly even better with a .25 size engine.

I used Tomahawk to learn the entire Beginner PAMPA pattern. It will do all round maneuvers easily but does lack power for square maneuvers. With a modern 25 engine such as OS 25LA or Magnum 25XL, it will do squares no problem.

One of the really good avantages of this kit is the way the wing is put together. If you follow the assembly instructions, the wing will come out straight.

Another great advantage is that with a 25 size engine and a stock muffler, it it a very docile airplane that you can use to learn round maneuvers. As you progress, replace the muffler with a lighweight tongue muffler and you can do squares as well.

I have since started flying more advanced models, yet I still enjoy flying the Sporthawk. I also use it to teach my niece and newphew to fly and they already managed to stuff it a number of times with no major damage to the plane.

Indeed. You have to pick something that you like that works within the parameters of what you are trying to do and run with it.
I know guys that hunt wild hogs (BIG puppies!) with .44-40 Winchester and think it is just the ticket. Others think a .444 Marlin is about right.
You HAVE to go with (and try) what YOU like in this life- otherwise you'll never learn a single thing and will feel cheated at the end of it.

Jake

Yes Paul, A fox 25 will work just fine on Flitestreak -- Paul

Hmmmm...

A couple mentions of the ARF Flite Streak either having a weak front end or not being as durable as a kit version.

As I have never in my life built a Flite Streak from any kit, I won't belabor the point.

But the ARF is hardly a weak sister! My first one has been treated rather badly, skipped it inverted off real hard, dry ground last year. Cracks in fuselage doublers and triplers, but they served quite nicely in delivering thin CA to the appropriate spots.

This simple repair was fine for a great many flights, although frequent use of an electric starter, hitting the shut-off (big rag thrown into prop as model passes by my friend) a few times and some rather rude antics here and there did eventually result in odd-sounding vibrations while in flight. No apparent problems, understand, just one of those noises that means trouble down the road.

As the fuselage is indeed kinda hollow, the repair merely involved removing balsa strips from between fuselage doublers, exposing motor mount sticks. CF tubes .300 in diameter were then glued in with 5-minute epoxy, itself laced heavily with micro-balloons. Problem solved.

Durability may of course be a factor for you guys who are bolting on Fox 35s. But I don't seem to recall FS kits built with Ambroid and/or Elmer's Glue-All back in the "good old days" being in any way superior to the ARFs...

In short, don't let the whiners keep any of you from enjoying an ARF Flite Streak. Or any ARF, for that matter. All the CL ARFs I have seen are built to a standard *at least* as high as what we ascribed to back when all of us had more hair and less bodily mass.

Paul,

See you're collecting info for the next project. Great! For what it's worth, I built a Brodak Lightning Streak for my first plane. Detailed instructions, good plans, and nice wood. (The plans are by Dave Braun. He lived a mile or so away from me when I was a kid. I visited his house once, and to an 11 year old, it was like toy heaven! I couldn't imagine having more than one engine, and not an .049!) I used a new O.S. .35S with stock muffler on pressure. Clear MonoKote on the wings, clear dope everywhere else. Flew on 60' lines over pavement (no grass available.) The plane flew fine from the beginning, and as I built up experience, I started improving things and shifting the CG aft. That one lasted about 50 flights before I confetti'd it. I'm still trying to decide if I like my SuperClown with the O.S. .25FSR yardsale engine better. I KNOW I'd like to have the L-Streak back!

The O.S. .35S was ok in the L-Streak, but it had plenty of excess power and could have been lighter. The 'Streak nose is pretty short, so if your Fox is a shaker, that is a definite advantage! I've listened to lots of talk here in SSW about which Fox is which and I'm pretty confused. Seems like you need to know if yours is one of the milder versions, and what kind of rpm and prop it'll pull. It seems like it would have to be pretty powerful to haul the larger wingspan planes around. And the more modern planes seem to have thicker (more draggy) wings, too. But if you have the power, these can fly slower thru maneuvers. How are your reflexes?

The O.S. .25FSR is plenty too much power for the SuperClown as well. A more mild Fox (lighter?) and fixed flaps might be a nice combination. One of the local fliers here has an O.S. .25LA in a S-Clown with fixed flaps. It has plenty of power, too. One thing to consider in the built up wings is whether you want to tackle sheeting the leading edge or not. Most of the planes described so far are not sheeted or C-tube types. Some of the planes listed have flaps. Some that have flaps don't really need them, and you could simply glue them on as a fixed trailing edge. The extra hassle of the linkage and hinges may not be necessary.

I would rather build a Flight Streak or Lightning Streak than buy the ARF if you have the time. I don't like the hollow construction for durability. Besides, you can double the fun factor if you build it first and then fly it. (I always justify the hobby budget by comparing it to going to the movies. For $9, I get three hours or so of entertainment. Thus, about $3/hr. I can spend WEEKS building a plane, so it's only pennies on the hour! And I never seem to go to movies anymore....)

I took the Shoestring plans out of the box last night! Gotta decide if the Greenhead .15 will make it go....

Best wishes!
Dave
LA_Flyer

Hey Paul, Just one more thing, If you opt to build the Brodak Flitestreak, then do what DirtyDan was trying to say, and use epoxy on the ply doublers, maple motor mounts and of coarse the tail feathers. HEY im only in it for the FUN!! Paul

Thanks Dave,
Lots of good info here and I have some time to sort it out.
We have two mid size trainers in our hanger that are not .049s.
I surly want to do a built up wing.

Dave you best get crackin on that Shoestring, I think we will take ours for a test flight this weekend. I will keep you posted.
Thanks
Paul

Rootbeard Racing Team,

I'm crackin' here, I'm cracking! I restocked the glue caddy. I got the PC filler material, tissue, and spinner this week and I'm picking up some wheels this Sunday. I even scrounged a stop watch for this little "Internet Racing League" we got goin' here. We're still on for 10 timed laps with corrected line lengths, right? I'm a little worried 'cause your team has got a hot pilot, and my team has got a stunt-trainee pilot. I'm wondering if I'm gonna need a mechanic that can tune a hot engine to make up for that...?

Dave
LA_Flyer
Manhattan Beach Racing (and Stunt) Team

PS--Now I'm wondering if I pulled the extra head gaskets out of the .25FSR on the SuperClown, carved up a 6x7 prop, upped the nitro to 35% and turned in the needle valve until it screams would I give you guys a run for your money...? I know it goes like crazy when I miss the "stunt setting" right now.

Hey give the kid a break. He is only 9 years old. I do not think he can keep the plane level for 10 laps. I am sure he will do a few climbs and dives just to have some fun. That is the way he plays hockey, just for the fun of it. He thinks the whole world is his play ground. We are going to have some fun!!!

Thanks
Paul