Oldtime Overhead 8

I've been flying my New Brodak Viking alot and really liking it. Just playing with props right now to get the right speed.
For entering the oldtime overhead 8, what angle do you start it at? I just go up some and do a half overhead outside loop to get it started and then just like an overhead lazy 8, and a half overhead inside loop to end it. Are you supposed to be at the same attitude when you exit as you start? Since you start it with the outside part of one 8 and end it with the inside loop of one part, you only do two eights in the middle and that the halfs at the start and end to equal 3 of them?
Also for your other manuevers in old time, do you have to be at 60 degress at the tops of manuevers, or can you be a 45 like pampa and still get the same points if you track with your manuevers?
Thanks
Ryan

Ryan,

Surely I am not the best authority here, but no one else has stepped up, so you're stuck with me.

I begin by getting model to the same altitude I expect the bottoms of the loops to be placed. In angularity it is no doubt something considerably less than 45 degrees. As I come to face upwind (others say they face down wind, I have no idea which is "best") I pull an *inside* half loop to directly overhead, changing direction into an outside loop back to directly overhead, in completing a half inside loop to point of beginning, that's one full over head eight. Repeat twice more. Pull out at same spot on the hemisphere where you entered maneuver.

The biggest two "tricks" are to get the shape right and then to actually do it directly overhead; many OTS fliers (me included) currently lack the sort of flexibility required to do this correctly or just blow it off as not worth the effort. Thus it is a very common mistake to fly the maneuver out in front of yourself, meaning that when done correctly the judges really take note.

DD hit it correct on the overhead eights you do three of them. As to the "lower case" maneuvers, the rule book says " tops to be less than 60 degrees" if you do them with the tops at 45 derees and they track, you will receive the same points as one who does them at 60 degrees. no more no less. (All other factors being equal).
Bigiron

The previous advice is correct. Read the rule book! The OTS overhead 8s are done "lazy style". That is, if you fly CCW, you start (facing downwind) with the plane at 45 deg elevation and over your left sholder. Do your inside loop starting into the wind. After 270 deg your plane will be just above your head and heading straight down. (I hope you are able to bend over backwards for the back side of the loops). This is the intersection at the top, so don't linger! The loop intersections have the plane in a vertical attitude relative to the flyer, but only for an instant-- and if you know a bit of Newton's Calculus, the time spent at the intersection is ZERO! It is only a transition from inside to outside, and visa versa. Most flyers linger at the intersections, making what the judges see as a "D" in the intersection, or worse, an overfly which takes a correction to get to the opposite loop. Don't do this! The above reminder about intersections also applies to the horizontal 8s.

My own observations on the OTS overhead 8 is that when flyers bend over backward to do the back side of the 8, they don't go down far enough on the backside: this makes the 8 more in front of you than centered at the top of the circle. Think about it.

Floyd (not an expert flyer)

Yes, ladies and gentlemen, PLEASE DO READ THE RULE BOOK! Go to # 11, pg 56. THE VERTICAL FIGURE EIGHT. The rule emphatically states that the maneuver "May be started and completed at the center of figure." Follow up with #12 "THE OVERHEAD FIGURE EIGHT". About halfway down the text is stated "(overhead eights are judged THE SAME AS THE OTHER EIGHTS with the exception that the model should always point in the same direction at the top of each circle.) Therefore, your overheads need NOT BE STARTED at the low angles. THE OVERHEAD EIGHT MAY BE STARTED IN THE CENTER OF THE FIGURE! Both George Aldrich and Bob Palmer each told me they flew them this way.

Come on now, we can all read. Why can't this be put to bed once and for all?

>
>Come on now, we can all read. Why can't this be put to bed
>once and for all?
>
>Ward

I do not think there is any question that the OTS rules allow the vertical eights to be entered and flown in a number of different ways and will/should be judged as being flown correctly.

Furthermore, I do not think there is any question that the OTS rules are sometimes less than clear. Particularly when trying to understand the description of the overhead eights that are to be "judged the same as the other eights with the exception that the model should alsways point in the same direction at the top of each circle..." The descriptions provided for the horizontal eights and the vertical eights are different from each other, yet the overhead eights are to be judged the same way as the other eights with the exception of the direction model at the top of the loops. The brevity of the OTS rules can lead to some ambiguities.

Nobody can have more respect for George Aldrich and Bob Palmer than I have. In 1952, it is quite possible that judges were used to seeing a variety of methods on how the eights were being legally flown. However, the current convention seen at most OTS contests is for the overhead eights to be flown as described by Dan and Marvin at the beginning of this thread. This is what judges are used to seeing and are ready to judge the maneuvers to be flown in this way. As has been mentioned in previous threads on this and similar subjects, the flyer should be concentrating on presenting the maneuver in the best way he can which is how the judges would anticipate the way the manevuer is normally flown. The judges are not looking for a flyer to show how clever he can be by flying a "less conventional", albeit legal, way to fly the overhead eights.

There is nothing in the rulebook that would prevent the flyer using a "less conventional" by current practice manner to fly such maneuvers. If a flyer wishes to do so, it would be advisable for the flyer to advise the judges so they will not be surprised. A surprised judge when trying to determine if what he saw was comliant with the rule book when he had seen the maneuver flown only in one way all day does not necessarily equate to a good score, no matter how well the "less conventionally" flown maneuver was flown. The judge does not have that much time to determine the score for that maneuver and then get ready to assess the next maneuver.

Gentlemen,

I fear that you totally misjudge my intentions on this issue. I am not trying to be “cute” or “clever”, or outthink the entire stunt community. We judge our peers in all forms of competition by having RULES to compare individual performances to. Rules are typically written in some place for all competitors, and judges, to see. From one individuals ability to closely follow these written rules we assign weights, or point values, to compare ourselves with each others performance as measured against these “standards”. “Conventions”, (or what judges feel “should be” the rules, or their personal feelings) should have absolutely no bearing on the point scores assigned in these competitions. Most of the judges who seem to believe that these so called conventions, ARE the “rules” were not even born in 1952.

You said that George and Bob were performing in front of judges that were used to seeing a variety of methods on how the eights were LEGALLY performed. Doesn’t that really say it in itself?

Because it is “conventional” is it therefore always right? Is a canard conventional? It was for Wilbur and Orville.

We all understand that the text and the illustrations of the 1951/1952 Model Aircraft Regulations are ambiguous. But “convention”, and other Stunt Gods have stated over and over, that we need to follow the written text.

So how would any of you interpret “Overhead eights are to be judged the same as the other eights”? If this does not say the maneuver may be PERFORMED as any of the other eights, what possible reason would there have been for its inclusion at all?. Please also note that the text of rule #12 does not specify ANY entry point, or ANY exit point. This should be saying something to all of you.

Yes, for whatever reason, I have difficulty entering the overhead eight from the side. I have been ruled against for entering it at the center. (By someone born in the late 60’s, early 70’s). Yes gentlemen, if I ever enter another OTS competition I will inform the judges of my central entrance to the maneuver. But “convention” or not, please DO NOT state, or insinuate, that the only way to execute this maneuver LEGALLY is from the side entry. By doing so, you are perpetuating the “conventions” of the future. (And there are already too many in this event)!

Ward,

Some people take this OTS stuff too seriously. You qualify.

Also note that if we are to replicate OTS using the rules as published back then, we have a real serious problem in trying to "update" them. Keith's answer was excellent in all ways, your objections notwithstanding.

At least Randy got good answers to his question.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-04 AT 11:07 PM (CDT)
 
>You said that George and Bob were performing in front of
>judges that were used to seeing a variety of methods on how
>the eights were LEGALLY performed. Doesn’t that really say
>it in itself?

Yes, but that was 52 years ago. I think that it would be fair to say that most judges today are not "used" to seeing the eights flown in a variety of ways, irregardless of the fact that the rules do so allow.

>Because it is “conventional” is it therefore always right?
>Is a canard conventional? It was for Wilbur and Orville.

I did not say that the "convention" makes it right. It is merely that in most OTS contests today, the various eights are flown in a similar fashion, thus the terms "convention" and/or "normally seen" seem to apply. The "convention" does not change the OTS rules which still allow the eights to be flown in a variety of ways.

>We all understand that the text and the illustrations of the
>1951/1952 Model Aircraft Regulations are ambiguous. But
>“convention”, and other Stunt Gods have stated over and
>over, that we need to follow the written text.
>
>So how would any of you interpret “Overhead eights are to be
>judged the same as the other eights”? If this does not say
>the maneuver may be PERFORMED as any of the other eights,
>what possible reason would there have been for its inclusion
>at all?. Please also note that the text of rule #12 does not
>specify ANY entry point, or ANY exit point. This should be
>saying something to all of you.

By your own statement, the 51/52 rules are ambiguous. The fact that the current AMA PA rules now are very specific where each maneuver begins and ends attests to the ambiguities that perhaps existed before. I did not state that the OTS eights had to be entered or exited in a certain way.

>Yes, for whatever reason, I have difficulty entering the
>overhead eight from the side. I have been ruled against for
>entering it at the center. (By someone born in the late
>60’s, early 70’s). Yes gentlemen, if I ever enter another
>OTS competition I will inform the judges of my central
>entrance to the maneuver. But “convention” or not, please DO
>NOT state, or insinuate, that the only way to execute this
>maneuver LEGALLY is from the side entry. By doing so, you
>are perpetuating the “conventions” of the future. (And there
>are already too many in this event)!
>
>Ward

I did "NOT state", nor do I think that I insinuated in any way "that there was only one way to execute this maneuver". What I did write was:

"There is nothing in the rulebook that would prevent the flyer using a "less conventional" by current practice manner to fly such maneuvers. If a flyer wishes to do so, it would be advisable for the flyer to advise the judges so they will not be surprised."

So please, do not yourself insinuate that I wrote something different that what I had written.

Ryan,
There are too many ways to enter and exit the OT Overhead Eights...

Most often seen: is a climb to about 30º either headwind or downwind, then a half INSIDE loop up to directly overhead. Then a complete OUTSIDE loop, back to directly overhead. Then finish the initial half-inside to complete the _first_ overhead eight. (It ends when you pass through the point where you started the first half-inside.) Easiest way to think about OT figures is that they start and end at the same point -- no extra parts of loops like in the modern PA vertical eights.

Continue through two more OT O/Head Eights the same way, and exit through the point where you started, level at about 30º...

Marvin D. mentioned using 45º as your reference height -- that's also valid. The 1951-52 AMA Rules (OT is based on them) had ambiguous and confusing wording; the words and sketches didn't quite match... I believe the words say that the loops in the O/Head Eights NOT be WIDER than 60º, each.

Many OT designs are marginal fliers. Keeping the loops large keeps speed up, and can still score well. A Vike with good power should be no problem. To help place the eights, find a position to "plant" your feet for a reference. E.g., facing upwind or downwind with the insides all off your left shoulder and vice versa for the outsides. If you wander around while all you're looking at is sky, you can do some really odd-looking shapes <g>

The real problem with OTS is that most fliers do not have the OTS rules, specifically the 1951-1952 AMA rulebook pattern description, available for study, review and reference. It is unfortunate these rules are not available online. (I understand a Spanish site has the diagrams.)I have previously supplied hard copies to Stuka Stunt Works and to the present PAMPA webmaster. I continue to be glad to supply copies to any webmaster who expresses interest. I am bullheaded, persistant, and not easily discouraged. Eventually I will give them to someone will post them for all to see.