OK Cub 049B Question

I bought an OK Cub 049B that has an anodized blue tank and thrust washer. Can someone tell me if the blue color is of any significance? When did this model come out?

Thanks. Currell

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Currell, I'm not sure of the dates but it was in the early 60's perhaps 63.
There were also red,green,gold,black about 5 colors in all. They were at the end of the cub liftime and I guess it was to keep interest in the motors. I'm sure some of the historians will jump in with all the data. Dennis

oops I misread the model number. I was referring to the OK 049A model.

I just saw an OK advertisement in an old mag (~1964) that showed a Cub .060 that looked like the "A" and had a glow head instead of the standard plug. I have three OK .049 "B" engines with a glow head also. I assume these are from the early '60's too.
Apparently OK did some experimentation at one time. They also had a diesel with "automatic" adjustable head. I think it was spring loaded instead of adjustable. Anyone tried one of these?
I don't remember seeing the "A"'s with different colors, but I THINK OK had a special anniversary .049B issue that had the crankcase anodized. I may have seen it on the Herkimer web site.
I think all of these things (except the anniversary model) occurred while I was in the service so I didn't pay much attention to them.

George: I tried googling the Herkimer site, but could not find it. Could you lead me to it?

>George: I tried googling the Herkimer site, but could not
>find it. Could you lead me to it?
>
>Currell

Currell,

Google was able to find it after many tries.
http://www.okengines.com/

Hi Currell,

Its a 049B "Mowhawk" made in 1978 for Herkimers 25th anniversary, made from left over parts with new prop thrust plate to cover were the spring starter was. I tried posting a photo but can't, there a photo of one on my web site. They still seem to bring pretty good money on ebay.

Mark

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/049Collectors/

>Hi Currell,
>
>Its a 049B "Mowhawk" made in 1978 for Herkimers 25th
>anniversary, made from left over parts with new prop thrust
>plate to cover were the spring starter was. I tried posting
>a photo but can't, there a photo of one on my web site. They
>still seem to bring pretty good money on ebay.
>
>Mark
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/049Collectors/

Something is wrong with that chronology. OK Cub was long out of business in 1978, and it couldnt have been their 15th anniversary.
Herkimer started making motors in the middle to late 30's and 049's didn't appear till the late 40's oh about 1948. Their first small motor was an 039 so the 049 was later.
Dennis

Actually, I do remember that there have been a couple times recently that "new" Cub .049 As and Bs have been sold made from left over parts. Not Herkimer, but someone had/obtained a stock pile of parts, so they were "new".
Bill <><

Mark,
Great pics! That was the engine I was referring to, although I had incorrectly remembered the crankcase being anodized. I noticed that the engine has a looong drive washer, almost like the crankcase was from the version with the pull starter.
My first Cub was the .049 with the metal tank/mount. I got it used, attached to a Scientific "Little Bipe"...traded my BB gun for it.
I like those "A" versions with the colored tanks.
Nice stuff!

These engnes were sold NIB .... or given away ..... I've heard several versions of the story. I know the one I own was $$bought$$, by Me at a collecto years ago! These engines were made from used or NOS parts, the c'case was the one that originally took the pull starter, thus the newly a specially machined prop drive. You will notice the tank is TOTALLY anodized, including the filler / vent pipes ....this pretty much tells the story the parts were anodized AFTER the pipes were installed, in other words, USED or NOS parts. The engines were an effort by the NOW "OK Engines" owner Ted Brebeck, this is the son of the original HERKIMER Cub efforts. I have heard that the original intent of this engine was a promo give-away to prospective DEALERS from the "now" OK Engines (Ted Brebeck). Of course these NIB engines eventually found their way into collectors hands .... the NIB ones bring fair $$money$$ on eBay, the ones with no box too sometimes if you HYPE it as the RARE "Anniversery Mohawk" engine, etc. See NIB photo .... the engines was called the "25th Aniversary Mohawk - Cub". Incidentially, Ted Brebeck was once selling this identical engine, minus anodizing and box for about a buck or two a piece, of which I bought a bunch ..... maybe someone should start anodizing the tanks and prop drives, although it would be very hard to reproduce the exact shade of blue that Ted's anodizer used. This is how to tell if indeed the engine is a copy (other than one of Ted's engines), this by the original lighter pale shade of blue, or lack of it I should say?

BTW, where did Ted get all the stuff he is (and has) sold over the years since the demise of the original "OK Herkimer" efforts? Well, his old man was very thrifty and never threw much away, plus the Comet Company who used the 1/2A Cub engines in their RTF plastic models also saved everything. When Comet went bankrupt one time (out of many times), they "settled up" as best they could their outstanding dept to Hermiker with all the 1/2A stuff they had left on hand, which was literally barrels full! This is where the OK Cub Go Cart parts, the many 1/2A engines, etc., comes from thru the current "OK Engines". I have bought a many 1/2A engines from Ted that still had pieces of the RTF plastic screwed to the lugs where the engines were just ripped from the Comet plastic models and thrown in a barrel. I have read Ted's personal comments as he would "open another barrel" of parts and find another 'this or that' new batch of parts, engines, etc.! The barrels are now getting low though, as is reflected in the now-a-day prices from "OK Engines" stuff ..... there was a time about 15 - 20 years ago when Ted ran regular "Sales", I remember he was selling the .049 Cubs (mix'n match, you get whatever he pulls from the barrel) for a buck each, and .024 Cub Engine complete parts kits for only 5 bucks each!!!

...I have bought a many 1/2A engines from Ted that still had pieces of the RTF plastic screwed to the lugs where the engines were just ripped from the Comet plastic models and thrown in a barrel...

I got a few of these in .049B form. Mine had glow heads instead of plugs and spinners with weighted thrust washer. I guess the weight was to balance the RTF's. They also have aluminum intake extender tubes.
The weight came in handy in a Veco Scout (from scratch) that came out a tad tail heavy.

See photo of box art..... it appears this box even has a serial number (0316) stamped on it.

Yep, Thats pretty much the story. Although its easy to make the lightblue color dye for anodising. You'd need to make the new thrust plate, then sell it for 40-50 bucks, thats about what there bringing now, without the box. The serial number thing is new to me, I wonder how many were stamped? I have about a 1/2 doz. and I don't remember seeing a ser. # I know the "Mohawk" was advertised by Ted into the early eighties.

>See photo of box art..... it appears this box even has a
>serial number (0316) stamped on it.

Notice that this is the early '50s Mohawk Chief .29 box with a round sticker attached!
cheers

>>See photo of box art..... it appears this box even has a
>>serial number (0316) stamped on it.
>
>Notice that this is the early '50s Mohawk Chief .29 box with
>a round sticker attached!
>cheers

Yes, I noticed the box was from the older Mohawk Chief .29 ..... how-ever the round white area in NOT a sticker .... it is indeed part of the printed box art. I would guess the master copy was a stick-on though?

Perhaps a better photo of the engine as it sits "in the box". This might show better the true color of blue anodizing this engine should be ..... I have seen sevearal NIB and they are all this shade of blue. I would guess the parts were all done in one single batch of anodizing under the same identical conditions with the same exact dye. I personally find the color Blue is the single hardest color to get "consistant results" from in the anodizing process.

Of course trying to photograph and carture the true shade of Blue this engine actually represents and then sending it over the 'Net' is nearly impossible?

>Although its easy to make the lightblue color dye for anodising. You'd need to make the new thrust plate.<

I wonder if you have ever done any anodizing? I would dare you to match this Cub color exactly ..... even Cox (or their anodizers) had problems keeping their anodizing colors consistant from batch to batch, look closely at a few Golden Bee engines for example, or check these three RR1 engines in photo. Blue in particular is the single MOST elusive color with which to get "consistant" results.
As for the special prop drives, Ted made (or had someone make) a large run of these several years ago and was (maybe still is) selling them for cheap .... I did buy a small quantity a while back. They are made to fit over the .049 (mostly .049B) crankcases with turned down front ends which were originally machined for the pull starters.

The photo propbably won't show it, but all three of these Cox RR1 engine's tanks are total different shade of blue, the lighter one (by far) on right, the darker one in middle. Actually I just want to see how many drool over these RR1 engines, one of which even has "left hand" rotor and runs "backwards" for using pusher props or clockwise proping, good for conventonal 1/2A Ukies in keeping the lines taught.

I wonder if you have ever done any anodizing? I would dare
>you to match this Cub color exactly .....

Why, yes I have. How many do you want?

>I wonder if you have ever done any anodizing? I would dare
>>you to match this Cub color exactly .....
>
> Why, yes I have. How many do you want?
>
>Mark

One would do .... but before we go any further I am not looking to turn this thread into a p_ssing match, no offence intended. Maybe YOU can teach ME something here? Every amateur (or pro for that matter) anodizer I have ever talked to agrees with me (so far anyhow) on matching colors, articularly blue .... and most particularly with different batches of aluminum. Can you post any samples of your work ... see photo of one of many Cox "Blue Bee" engines I did a couple years ago ..... not two were exactly the same, all very nice but definitely different in color shade (close maybe, but no cigar?). You might notice here the case and tank and spinner are slightly different because of the different aluminum alloys ..... all three parts were dipped, dyed and fixed simultaneously with exactly the same process. This here engine's tank, case, and prop drive ALL have different shade of Blue. Even Dale Kirn (of Cox fame) has never found anyone who could match the original Cox .15 prop drive Gold (or Yellow?) color on getting his plain aluminum (Medallion .15) prop drives anodized, not even close.

Blues and darker colors will set quicker, so dying times are shorter. Try Caswells electric blue, I'll try to post some pics, if not you have to join my Yahoo group 049Collectors I've also been unable to recreate Golden Bee's colors I'd love to have a early pinkish copper one.

anodised engines

Hey Mark,
Yours looks just like mine, or mine like yours ("Blue Bee" that is) . Have you ever fooled with the 'ph' factor of your dyes? My initial dye supplier always included the "ideal" ph factor for each color in order to dial-in that particular companie's various dyes to optimum effectiveness ..... all the various colored dyes had different 'ph' factors, some WAY different. I bought a good (fairly expensive) 'ph' meter so I could dial in my dyes to optimum anodizing effectiveness. I had some purple dye that was (is) beautiful, but it took forever to "take" .... I dialed in the 'ph' factor (added white vinegar in this particular case) and voilá! Coloring Easter Eggs is surprisingly similar ..... many times if the Eggs are taking forever to dye, you can simply add vinegar to speed things up, but too much vinegar is no good either!

That being said ..... did you know most companies that make colored stuff (especially Cox, pre Estes of course, and maybe Estes too) took extra pains to create colors that are virtually impossible to copy without the secret formulas? An example is the various colored plastic parts on the RTF Cox models, say a red wing on the Little Stinker Bipe for example. You won't find or even mix a paint that will match that color exactly, unless by an extremely pure LUCKY hit on the mix! I am sure they did the same thing with their anodizing colors back in the good old days of LeRoy Cox. The early Golden Bee straw color will never be matched exactly, nor will the later more yellow color. The later "yellow" is neither pure Yellow, nor pure Gold in color. I find all dye suppliers have different shades from the other various suppliers of all the basic colors, i.e. Blues, Reds, Yellows, etc. And there are SO MANY different shades and indeed even 'color names' for every basic color, i.e. Flame Red, Sunset Red, Light Red, even Chevy Red .... and this only a tiny fraction of the various Red colors! If you want to see an "extremely extreme" range of color shades, go to Tower Hobbies and look at the entire color line of the various Testor's paints, you will find hundreds, seemingly thousands ..... UNBELIEVABLE!!!!! You will see colors you have never heard of, you will even see Israel, Russian, Japan and other vavious Country's color shades.

I find my two most consistant anodizing colors to be Purple as in photo here, and Black. It seems some people have trouble with Black, perhaps because it's ideal 'ph' factor is way LOW compared to most colors?

Blue-Bee, Blue-Bee-Blue...

>Blue-Bee, Blue-Bee-Blue...
>
>George
So, Sinatra was a Cox fan?

I use a rice steamer with a little water in it, putting the dye in a metal measuring cup, small quick and easy, dipping using the anodising aluminum wire as needed. I've got photos posted on my web site. Never really thought about the PH thing. Yes, I've messed with the Golden Bee color several times only getting orangish colors. I had a nice '58 Golden Bee (the pinkish one) only to sell it, thinking I'd get a nicer one, I'm still looking. I hope you become a member theres not alot of 1/2a nuts out there.

Mark

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/049Collectors/

I have several Golden Bees...all bought used. Two have the bright golden anodizing. One of those has a #7 cylinder, guessing it's a replacement. I have one of the "pinkish" ones. Wondered why it was an odd color. The last may not be a Golden Bee. It has a gold crankcase and a Black Widow tank. It has a muffler on it so I can't see whether it has one or two bypasses.

Hi George, the #7 cylinder was probably original, made some where in the seventies. I believe Cox used black on there Golden Bees also about this time.

> I use a rice steamer with a little water in it, putting
>the dye in a metal measuring cup, small quick and easy,
>dipping using the anodising aluminum wire as needed. I've
>got photos posted on my web site. Never really thought about
>the PH thing. Yes, I've messed with the Golden Bee color
>several times only getting orangish colors. I had a nice '58
>Golden Bee (the pinkish one) only to sell it, thinking I'd
>get a nicer one, I'm still looking. I hope you become a
>member theres not alot of 1/2a nuts out there.
>
>Mark
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/049Collectors/

Mark,
I reckon the question is simply this: "Blue Bee, or not Blue Bee"!
Hey, I've got your pinkish-gold colored looking (straw-gold to me) "Golden Bee" NIP ..... see photo.

Thanks for the "Yahoo" invitation, I'll give it a look!

Easy now cowboy! You don't know what people are able to do. I have been alot of Marks anodizing work and it straight up kicks butt!

Matching anodizing colors is not that hard to do. Yes you will find some change over a batch given the same part. I have run parts all the same type but somewhere one would have an odd alloy. As you could plainly see it in the anodizng tank reacting differently. Cox loved to do that it think. Your different alloys like different anodizing times and power. You can't run different alloys in the same batch and expect them to come out the same. That would be the reason you may not be able to get your spinner to match your tank/case. The tanks and spinners are 2xxx series while the cases are 6xxx. I keep a log of every new job I run so I can go back to it the next time. A couple of degrees here and an amp or volt there and things start coming out different in the end. Most dyes like a PH of around 6.0. Black is hard for some because of the dye type. Most blacks are not single part dyes and have alot of red in them, as seen around edges and high spots on finished parts.

This just goes to show that anodizing is truly an art .... no two people do it exactly the same. You say YOUR average dye ph factor is 6. Mine is closer to 5.5 with the black being low at about 4.5, but I probably use different dyes then you? As far as matching colors, I am talking about EXACT match to an unknown color dye, it cannot be done. If you can do it, then you are in a "one of class" and you should be in the industrial $$end$$ of the business.

I personally know people who install commercial anodizing for a living and this is always a concern and often times a problem. BTW, these commercial installers tell me the Japanese are well ahead in this industry field (anodized framing for commercial glass) in quality and in consistency. There are many "trade secrets" in this industry.

As far as matching colors, I am talking about
>EXACT match to an unknown color dye, it cannot be done. .
>
Sure it can. It just takes time to know what you need to mix to get what you want. It's not always a one shot deal.

I think we all agree that anodising is more of a art, and that timming is everything...as well as a good connection.

I too have noticed Back Widow tanks must have some red in the dye it appears to be almost a purple/black when looking at it under bright light.

Nice Golden Bee, I'm gonna post it on web site:)

I checked my info and Cox stopped the black tank on the Golden Bee in '73 and no positive start date was noted, I guess it was a anodising issue that lasted 2-3 years.

>I too have noticed Back Widow tanks must have some red in the dye it appears to be almost a purple/black when looking at it under bright light.<

It depends totally on the particular dye .... I once fooled around with some computer black ink .... it had a bunch of yellow in it. There are black dyes and there are black dyes. A buddy in Canada tried some regular ink pen dye, it was mostly brown he said? The Cox Black Widow is probably as you say. After all, black is most definitely a mix of other primary colors, but there are a bunch of different black mixes out there, and from various different type pigments to boot.

Do you need photos of Cox engines? See photo of the NIB black tank Golden Bee.

Back to the original question...my engine looks exactly like the Mohawk, so thanks for the info. Currell

>Back to the original question...my engine looks exactly like
>the Mohawk, so thanks for the info. Currell

This thread did get a bit off track I reckon ..... I'm out'a here ..... let's get back to the FUN Scientific stuff!!!

How about a Custom Cox "VENOM" ..... my own keeper.

This will be my last post in regards to anodizing on this thread, Anyone ever try any two-tone masking?

WOW nice engine, yellow jacket?

How did you anodize the red glow head, with out messing up the filiment?

I've done some multi color fade jobs, like dipping easter eggs and built a clone Venom. I'd like to post some photos but can't seem to upload them, will keep trying.

Yup..I do alot of it too!

Hey Mark,
Is that my P-40 engine in red and gold?
Chris...

Hi Chris,

No its a latter one, yours is in the "hall of fame" photo section of the web site.

I sent you a email a couple of weeks ago, did you get it? (contact me email)