cardinal engine selection

starting to build a cardnial soon and havent selected a engine yet,i know the st g21/46 is a good one.also a bit pricey these days,what are some options..?....jerry

Hi Jerry,
I'm just finishing up my Cardinal and have decided to go with the Lew Woolard Silver Foxx 40. I havent run the engine yet but I have heard from those more experienced than I that the engine is real powerful with a good 4-2-4 break. It is frequently recommended as a substitute for the ST 46 and you can run with .015 lines instead of the heavier .018's. I think its a real bargin from Lew; Fox 40 BB Motor, reworking, ST NVA, Venturii and a tongue muffler for $150. Brian

If I didn't already have an engine I would look real hard at the OS LA-46.. I saw a box stock LA win expert in Dallas and the price is right..

Or, you could just for for the grunt and get one of Len's Magnum/Asp .53 engnines. These are very powerful.

The SSW OS40FP profile special was nice on mine-lots of horsepower, easy starts, very predictable. Needs 4.5 or 5 oz tank.

As a follow up, I don't think I picked up that this is a PROFILE cardinal. I figured it was a full sized Windy Cardinal. If a Brodak Cardinal, I'd go with the selection of an OS FP40 reworked by Len. I have an FP 35 Len did and am very happy with the power and reliability.

I use the ST .46 on my profile Cardinal and love it. As to pricey, you can get ST .46 anywhere from 100.00 to 235.00, dependeding on the source. Check out the for sale section on this board. I have dealed with three of the sellers and have no complaints. The original Cardinal had a K&B .40, but I don't know if it is available anymore. Ask Leonard or Windy. Ty

We had the opportunity to fly Windy's prototype with a Double Star 40; excellent engine for the Cardinal profile. All the power necessary for the pattern, very user-friendly package. I'm also very impressed with Byron Barker's OS LA 40 rework; nice 4-2-4 with lots of power. Similar power to the DS 40.

If Windy's prototype had a DS 40 on it then that might explain why almost everyone who's built a Cardinal has had to add tail weight when using other engines. The DS 40 is the lightest stunt 40 around by a couple of ounces.

Winfred also glassed the ENTIRE fuselage with 3/4 oz. cloth and epoxy... that has a lot to do with the superior motor runs that he was ablee to achieve, as well as explains why others add tail weight?

See Ya

>We had the opportunity to fly Windy's prototype with a Double
>Star 40; excellent engine for the Cardinal profile. All the
>power necessary for the pattern, very user-friendly package.

Unless I have gotten really out of it mentally (more than usual, anyway), the DS 40 is the Ukrainian clone of a Fox stunt 35 that Tom Dixon has been selling for 2-4 years. And no one previously has described it as much of a powerhouse compared to "modern" types of model engines. With a Cardinal's very thick airfoil, I would be likely to consider engines for it that are much more powerful than McCoy 40's, whose power output has been compared to the DS 40 more commonly than anything else except the Fox stunt 35.

Perhaps you had an exceptional DS40, or the prototype Cardinal Profile was exceptionally light in weight for its size?

K.

I'll bet the prototype was built with some seriously light balsa and probably weighed under 40 oz. If so then the DS 40 is a good match. Builders of the kit are unlikely to be able to build this light without extensive wood substitution so they are going to need a bit more powerplant zip. No criticism at all of Brodak here. No-one expects a kit costing only 79.95 to be full of 6 lb. wood and no-one expects Joseph Bellcrank to build like Windy. From all I've read on the board good choices for the kit would be--LA 46, DS 50, Stalker 46, Tigre 46, Leonard's 40 profile special, Woolard's Silver Foxx 40, and the 4S championed by Bob Z--the OS 40 Surpass. It looks like the Profile Cardinal is getting to be the de-facto choice for a full capability pattern trainer. Nice to have a Pattern Master for the masses.

You mention Windy had a Double Star .40 on the original Cardinal profile. In a video by Windy, it has a K&B .40. This is the yellow Cardinal. Did he make more than one "original" and use different engines?? Also, the Brodak kit I built had excellent wood in it and as it sits less fuel, it is 40.6 OZ on a digital scale. Cover is polyspan, dope is all Brodaks, no fancy trim. Ty

Windy did, indeed, use both the DS .40 and the K&B .40 on his yellar critter.

He didn't like the concept of a flat prop, which is what most have found the K&B to enjoy.

See Ya

Windy's prototype was not light (is that the pc way to say heavy?) and his DS.40 was simply well broken in... used an 11 X 5 or 6 prop, I believe?

I'm not a DS fan at all, but the solid as a rock front end allowed them to work very well.

See Ya

Mr. P. why for art thou not a Double Star fan?

> why for art thou not a Double Star fan?
>
The guy seems to enjoy stirring controversy, such as picking on Fox 35's to see how much of a howl rises from the fans. The DS 40 is just a stroked Fox 35. It apparently vibrates some or Rich wouldn't make such a big deal out of the stiff fuselage on the first one.

Hey Kiwi!

I was hanging around Windys shop when he was building the original P. Cardnal and can probably comment with as much authority as Peabody, concerning that project.

Even tho some may think that Windy is some kind of God, he's occasionally willing to listen to earthly advice. When I dropped by his shop and saw the fuselage that he was sanding to shape, I warned him that he had made it so thin and streamlined, that it would flex in flight. Several of us discussed the options and Windy decided that he'd cover it with glass cloth to stiffen it because he:

A) Didnt want to compromise his thin, streamlined shape.

B) Was of the opinion that the extra weight of the epoxy and glass was of little concern (Considering the Patternmaster wing.).

And

C) Just didnt feel like making another fuselage!

If you check out the Video of that project, you will also note that I installed the bullet-proof tailwheel into the plane while a couple of guys, Peabody included, watched and kabbitzed. That tail wheel was mounted into a hardwood block that I installed by cutting a chunk out of the fuselage, epoxying the assembly in place and then sheeting over the hole.

The nose of that plane was the stiffest that I have ever seen on a profile. Windy did it that way because he intended that the Profile Cardinal eventualy be used as an engine test bed and become a kit.

There was just nothing about that plane that was done halfway.

I don't remember what that thing weighed, but it was FAR from light! Windy switched to the K&B, not only for more horsepower but because he also wanted to help sell the K&B-40 engines for Mr Brodak.

It ended up being an incredably good-flying plane, and the rest is history.

If I was to build one, I would skip the kit and build one similar to the original. That was a nice profile!

Hey Kiwi!

I was hanging around Windys shop when he was building the original P. Cardnal and can probably comment with as much authority as Peabody, concerning that project.

Even tho some may think that Windy is some kind of God, he's occasionally willing to listen to earthly advice. When I dropped by his shop and saw the fuselage that he was sanding to shape, I warned him that he had made it so thin and streamlined, that it would flex in flight. Several of us discussed the options and Windy decided that he'd cover it with glass cloth to stiffen it because he:

A) Didnt want to compromise his thin, streamlined shape.

B) Was of the opinion that the extra weight of the epoxy and glass was of little concern (Considering the Patternmaster wing.).

And

C) Just didnt feel like making another fuselage!

If you check out the Video of that project, you will also note that I installed the bullet-proof tailwheel into the plane, while a couple of guys, Peabody included, watched and kabbitzed. That tail wheel was mounted into a hardwood block that I installed by cutting a chunk out of the fuselage, epoxying the assembly in place and then sheeting over the hole.

The nose of that plane was the stiffest that I have ever seen on a profile. Windy did it that way because he intended that the Profile Cardinal eventualy be used as an engine test bed and become a kit.

There was just nothing about that plane that was done halfway.

I don't remember what that thing weighed, but it was FAR from light! Windy switched to the K&B, not only for more horsepower but because he also wanted to help sell the K&B-40 engines for Mr Brodak.

It ended up being an incredably good-flying plane, and the rest is history.

If I was to build one, I would skip the kit and build one similar to the original. That was a nice profile!

OS LA 46
Period.
Paragraph.
End of story.

LA 46. Cant be beat for the price. The power is exceptional. Stock they are great growl with best of them. Have the transfer port moved to 14 degrees and you got yourself a real show stomper.

Doug Moon

Get this engine,

Do what Doug says to it. I watched his and 'Zilla's run at Dallas in Sept (Awesome!) Nuff said!

Jerry --

To tell the truth I am more than a little confused by today's engine options, piped ships, and big engines. As Bobby Jones said when Jack Nicklaus came on the golf scene, "He plays a game of golf with which I am not familiar."

To us old-timers, seems like a well built Nobler with a box stock Fox .35 wouldn't be too far behind most of the high tech stuff out there today. In Ted Fancher's hands, I suspect the old Nobler and Fox could score an easy 500 plus score. I am not trying to be a curmudgeon, but a realist.

The top stunt fliers today are flying powerplant combinations with which I am not familiar. For most of us casual flyers and less than National level flyers, we may be trying a little too hard. Most of us don't have the flying skills necessary to compete at top levels, and praying for better equipment to close the gap is a pipe (intentional pun) dream. Jerry, if you are just an average Joe like I am, stick on a simple engine like an FP 40, go fly, and when you go to sleep at night, dream you won the Nats. Let your wife score your pattern, and 500 plus is easy.

thanks all for your input.i was leaning in the OS direction to start with,i have a OS 40 LA in a overweight t/f tudor and it flys pretty good...how good is the OS 46 SF{its discontinued}i have a chance to get one?...thanks jerry