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Sorta OT: Methane

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 17 of 17 known posts recovered

TomK · May 03, 2004 08:38 AM

#0 source
Saw a stange show on Discovery or some such thing about the Bermuda Triangle. yea, yea, I know...

Anyway, what they showed was that as little as a 1% concentration of methane in the air can actually shut down the piston motor on an Avenger.

That got me wondering if our planes give off methane in their exhast? Then it made me wonder if some of the stories of random engine shut down during consecutives could be related to that.

Time for my medication I suppose

LNeumann · May 03, 2004 08:55 AM

#1 source
Perhaps there is more than one reason that we should avoid cow pastures for flying fields?

william henri · May 03, 2004 08:58 AM

#2 source
Very strange you should mention this phenomenon. My CL friend Rob Slater & his 81" wingspan scratch built J-3 Cub, RC, powered by the reliable HB .61 had an interesting experience. South of Las Lunas, New Mexico, there is a municiple, little used horse training designated area, where guys sometimes fly their planes when horses or owners are not present, also, both cl and rc, because of the little populated area where older model engines mufflers are not a requirement. Next door to this area is a commercial farm where maybe 1000 dairy cattle live and produce milk and related products--hence a huge long "pile" that eventually winds-up as commercial compost. When the rc guys get close or over this 1/4 mile long pile--engine failure! Even on days when the smell is limited. In other areas, the engine has never failed.

TomK · May 03, 2004 09:57 AM

#5 source
Dang! Maybe there is something to it then. Theory was a methane burst. Huge under-sea bubble comes up, pops, release methane cloud, kills motor, old time plane goes down.

Larry Cunningham · May 03, 2004 09:00 AM

#3 source
I'm pretty sure a flatulence once brought my stunter down. I was doing consecutive inside loops on the same side of the circle where Colonel Marchand was "standing", and suddenly it lost all lift!

Also, Gary seemed to smile with satisfaction after the crash.

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"The rule is perfect: in all matters of opinion are adversaries are insane." -Mark Twain

gcb · May 03, 2004 09:25 AM

#4 source
...And people complained about the Fox "burp"!

George

Steve Scott · May 03, 2004 08:02 PM

#13 source
>I'm pretty sure a flatulence once brought my stunter down.

Paleoclimatologists believe dinosaur flatulence created such a greenhouse effect it hastened the demise of the beasts. (true)

Steve Fitton · May 03, 2004 10:21 AM

#6 source
Flight 19 was brought down by navigational error, not mysterious methane eruptions. The students knew where they were, but the IP became very disoriented and led them back and forth until they ran out of gas. Very simple, and very unfortunate.

TomK · May 03, 2004 10:34 AM

#7 source
True about 19, but there are 5 others within 10 miles or each other. Supposedly

Steve Fitton · May 04, 2004 08:11 AM

#15 source
Chemistry aside, there is no evidence that 19 had this problem. There was plenty of evidence in the form of radio chatter that they were lost and running out of fuel, but no RT chatter of engine failure until they were out and ready to ditch.

The test ( I saw bits of that part, but not all of it), is laudable because it generates real data, not speculation. If it is reproducable, it is significant, maybe not for Avengers anymore but maybe for the model planes over the manure pile.

The problem with the Triangle thing is that about 250 WWII era Navy planes were lost in that area in a whole host of routine accidents and problems during and after the war. I don't think there is any evidence though, that the loss rate there was out of family for training losses anywhere else. Complicating the plane on the oceanfloor issue is that the Navy also disposed of surplus or worn out planes by dumping them off ships in that area, leading to discoveries of nearly intact Avengers as well as other types. I remember the whole flight 19 thing turning up again during the recovery operations for Challenger, when several Avengers turned up during the search for shuttle parts on the ocean floor. None of the Avengers looked at had the BuOrd numbers of the Flight 19 ships, and the Navy pointed out that plenty of other planes were in those waters. I think the only way to settle it once and for all would be to have Bob Ballard and his team examine each and every Avenger they can find in those waters until they find one or more of the 19 flight.

wright45 · May 03, 2004 02:16 PM

#8 source
The only thing that might give off methane in the exhaust is a motor burning natural gas (95% methane). And then much less than 1%. The lower explosive limit of methane is 5% in air and the higher explosive limit of methane is 15% in air. So it would be tough to get the methane thru the engine unburned. Even tougher to get the unburned exhaust back into the intake.

william henri · May 03, 2004 02:43 PM

#9 source
Let us bring this back to the model engine manure pile, maybe where it belongs, question is, why do glow engines, more than one, fail in the presence of high methane? I saw it happen? When the engine on the Cub was flown in the opposite direction, it ran fine. Over load of hydrocarbons? Strange to say the least.

Jim T. · May 03, 2004 02:57 PM

#10 source
I'd bet there is a bunch of CO2 being produced as well. Also other gasses in addition to methane, which has little or no odor. Maybe the answer is just low concentration of oxygen. I think the problem with methane bursts may be that methane is about half as dense as normal air. Hard to keep flying in a high methane concentration, I suppose.

Jim

kenwstr · May 03, 2004 07:45 PM

#11 source

Hi

If my memory of organic chemestry serves, Methane is a single carbon atom bonded to four hydrogen atoms. The "Meth" means one carbon in the molecule while "ane" means it's a simple single bonded hydocarbon.

H
|
C H4 H-C-H
|
H

Methoanol is a very similar structure. Again a single carbon atom while the "anol" means an alcahol which is that one of the simple hydrogen bonds is replaced with a hydroxil radical (OH).

H
|
C H3 (OH) H-C-O-H
|
H

If this is completely burned, you get water and carbon dioxide. Combustion in an engine is never that simple or complete. Where there is insufficient oxygen for a complete burn (a rich run), Not all elements are oxadised. Some hydrogen is freed up as the carbon is bonded to oxygen. Some of this free hydrogen combines with free (OH) radicals or oxygen to form water and some of the free hydrogen could replace the (OH) in the methanol molecule to form unburned methane and other unburned compounds can be produced in a similar way.

I couldn't say how much methane might be produced but I think it a safe bet that at least some is. It seems then, there might be a basis for the theory of methane in exhaust causing flame outs.


Regards,
Ken

kenwstr · May 03, 2004 07:48 PM

#12 source
Oh, the formatting disappeared from my diagrams so it won't make sence anymore.

Ken

Jim T. · May 03, 2004 10:08 PM

#14 source
Methane is CH4, Methanol is CH3(OH). What is going on in your exhaust is oxidation. Methane is reduced (higher energy) in comparison to methanol, so I don't think much is produced in the exhaust. But I have probably talked more chemisty here than I know.

Jim

Larry Cunningham · May 04, 2004 09:57 AM

#16 source
I stopped buying chemistry back in high school, when they made up that stuff about "covalent bonds" (sharing an electron in the outer shell - indeed!). Then the bleeding physicists topped them, insisting that electrons had "spin", which I felt surely must also be bovine fecal matter.

I thought it was about topped out, until the quantum guys went nuts with Up and Down and Truth and Beauty and thousands of particle shards, now they're off going nuts over "string" theories.

Humbug!

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"Shredded cabbage goes great with shredded carrots and mayonnaise." - Cole's Law