Forget about OTS or classic legal.
What mods would improve a Nobler's performance?
what about 3/4"extra tail moment, plus adding a little elevator area?
OK, "GURUS"..
Waiting...
Ion:) 
What would make a NOBLER better?
Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 39 of 39 known posts recovered
Bill Little · May 05, 2004 12:11 PM
#1 source
Ion,
It's called the "BEAR". Ask Mr. Gieseke.
Bill <><
It's called the "BEAR". Ask Mr. Gieseke.
Bill <><
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb
Steve Fitton · May 05, 2004 12:19 PM
#2 source
Bill is right.
The Gieseke Nobler is the improved 57 Nobler. The Bear is the evolution of the Gieseke Nobler to this day.
I don't think there ever was a definitive Gieseke/Bear Nobler., unless you count the 1974 TF kit, or the new UHP '68 kit. Both are snapshots of the Nobler as Gieseke crafted it at that time. Next season, the design will have evolved a little bit more....and so on.
A stock Gieseke Nobler flies far better than I can.
Steve
Bill Little · May 05, 2004 12:32 PM
#3 source
Steve,
You did fly the old yellow dog pretty good!
I forgot to tell you about the GN ribs I got. Will be a simple build, and won't fold like your old one did.
Bill <><
You did fly the old yellow dog pretty good!
I forgot to tell you about the GN ribs I got. Will be a simple build, and won't fold like your old one did.
Bill <><
When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends.
Japanese Proverb
>A stock Gieseke Nobler flies far better than I can.
>
>Steve
>
>Steve
Steve, I'm gonna let ya in:
I'm building a Chizler, that is really a Nobler with a diferent "suit".
The engine is gonna be an OS.25VFw/tuned pipe.
The rib set I made was no good 
,but wheen I saw this Vector .40 wing just lyin'around I measured it, and it has exactly the same span and chord of theNobler/Chizler!
The airfoil is a tad thicker,like an 18% compared to a16%.
I chose to build a Chizler for two reasons:
1- It's cute!!!
2- It has a big "belly" and the pipe is easily tucked in.
Since I'm at the "mod business", I thought of doin' something to the tail moment.
I know the Gieseke Nobler has a thicker airfoil.
Could you or Bill give me the numbers?
Ion
Ion I was after this same quest around 1985. I had built two Top Flight and two Gieseke Noblers in 1983-84. I started with Fox 35's and moved up to ST/46's in them. The second Gieseke Nobler I put the flap and elevator horns on the out side so I could adjust them. I ended up with 1952 Nobler size flaps "very big" and worked up to a 25% stab. This last version you see in the picture is a Top Flight body with the big flaps and the very large stab.Cleaned up rudder. This plane was a very good plane and it weighed about 40-42 onces.The stock ST/46 had all the wrong power for these planes so I started on the long project of perfecting the 46 to work in these small models. As I look back on this last Red Nobler I wonder if all the planes that came after it were much better.I had turned a nice Fox 35 plane into a power plane. I bet with a TT/35 or a Rustler/40 this would be a great plane.I found that the stock moments were the best.
Circle Burner · May 05, 2004 12:56 PM
#5 source
That's a cool looking Nobler Ed! Are you going to fly the ARF this weekend.
Hi john I will fly the Arf Nobler this evening or elts Friday morning. I will bring it to the parks party Thursday evening.
Ed
Ed
The Nobler needs two things:
1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two articles that confirm this.
2 Remove the firewall so that the motor gets a normal amount of cooling air.
1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two articles that confirm this.
2 Remove the firewall so that the motor gets a normal amount of cooling air.
I saw a guy running an rise ST .46 with the hole cut through the firewall for vent & side hole NV adjustment, and canopy was quartered with brass screen on each side for air intake. Ran well, considering the rear rotor setup, but, was overpowered and needed tail weight for the extra engine parts. He also ran the Nobler with a three blade prop. It did look fantastic though.
PS, the fellow said that the canopy openings on either side for air, was that in flight it was somewhat pressurized? At the time, several years ago in Eugene, OR I didn't question it. He called it ram-air? I did not look for belly pan openings though. I wish I would have investigated further.
Brett Buck · May 05, 2004 01:26 PM
#11 source
>The Nobler needs two things:
>1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal
>line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was
>me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two
>articles that confirm this.
>1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal
>line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was
>me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two
>articles that confirm this.
i.e. No rudder offset at all, I assume, and no airfoil as well.
Additional changes I would/will make:
Reduced asymmetry (to ~1/2")
slightly longer tail moment (~16")
tail sized to give TVC of ~.5, 65/35 split - similar airfoil to original
slightly blunter leading edge
removable flaps (to allow the right sized flap to be determined by experiment)
Brett
SRiese5283 · May 08, 2004 02:33 AM
#28 source
>>The Nobler needs two things:
>>1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal
>>line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was
>>me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two
>>articles that confirm this.
>
>
> i.e. No rudder offset at all, I assume, and no airfoil as
>well.
>
> Additional changes I would/will make:
>
> Reduced asymmetry (to ~1/2")
> slightly longer tail moment (~16")
> tail sized to give TVC of ~.5, 65/35 split - similar
>airfoil to original
> slightly blunter leading edge
> removable flaps (to allow the right sized flap to be
>determined by experiment)
>
> Brett
>>1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal
>>line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was
>>me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two
>>articles that confirm this.
>
>
> i.e. No rudder offset at all, I assume, and no airfoil as
>well.
>
> Additional changes I would/will make:
>
> Reduced asymmetry (to ~1/2")
> slightly longer tail moment (~16")
> tail sized to give TVC of ~.5, 65/35 split - similar
>airfoil to original
> slightly blunter leading edge
> removable flaps (to allow the right sized flap to be
>determined by experiment)
>
> Brett
WHY????
>
Brett Buck · May 08, 2004 11:32 AM
#30 source
>>>The Nobler needs two things:
>>>1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal
>>>line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was
>>>me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two
>>>articles that confirm this.
>>
>>
>> i.e. No rudder offset at all, I assume, and no airfoil as
>>well.
>>
>> Additional changes I would/will make:
>>
>> Reduced asymmetry (to ~1/2")
>> slightly longer tail moment (~16")
>> tail sized to give TVC of ~.5, 65/35 split - similar
>>airfoil to original
>> slightly blunter leading edge
>> removable flaps (to allow the right sized flap to be
>>determined by experiment)
>>
>> Brett
>
>WHY????
>>>1 A proper offset rudder so that it will fly on the normal
>>>line length for a ship of its size. I used to think it was
>>>me, but the current issue of 'Flying Models' has two
>>>articles that confirm this.
>>
>>
>> i.e. No rudder offset at all, I assume, and no airfoil as
>>well.
>>
>> Additional changes I would/will make:
>>
>> Reduced asymmetry (to ~1/2")
>> slightly longer tail moment (~16")
>> tail sized to give TVC of ~.5, 65/35 split - similar
>>airfoil to original
>> slightly blunter leading edge
>> removable flaps (to allow the right sized flap to be
>>determined by experiment)
>>
>> Brett
>
>WHY????
No rudder offset or airfoil, in order to allow the trim to be tangent to the circle, vice intentionally yawed in order to manufacture line tension, which is not necessary if you fly it a decent speed and have enough power.
Reduced asymmetry to align CP with fuselage, and not require so much flap differential.
Longer tail moment + larger TVC to allow further aft CG so it doesn't "open up" in the wind, reduce sensitivity to CG shift during the flight, and overall improve the control response from exponential to regressive.
Slightly blunter leading edge to reduce tendency to stall as a result of separation. I'm not talking about really blunt - just blunt like make sure you make a reasonable radius that would still fit with the LE sheeting and 1/4" square LE.
Removable flaps to allow trimming of the lift for the resulting final weight. It may not be necessary to reduce the flap area from the original once you have the larger tail.
That's really not a lot of changes, given that the model was designed 50+ years ago before the current pattern even existed and the Fox was cutting edge high tech.
Brett
Ultra has a nice, rather, beautiful picture of the G-Bear laser kit on their site. My next purchase by the way. Also, Tower hobbies has the Nobler cowl for 14 bucks, I'm going to try a conversion with my Brodak Nobler instead of the big formed block. Other sites have the cowls as well, but over 30 bucks.
>Ultra has a nice, rather, beautiful picture of the G-Bear
>laser kit on their site. My next purchase by the way.
>Also, Tower hobbies has the Nobler cowl for 14 bucks, I'm
>going to try a conversion with my Brodak Nobler instead of
>the big formed block. Other sites have the cowls as well,
>but over 30 bucks.
>laser kit on their site. My next purchase by the way.
>Also, Tower hobbies has the Nobler cowl for 14 bucks, I'm
>going to try a conversion with my Brodak Nobler instead of
>the big formed block. Other sites have the cowls as well,
>but over 30 bucks.
William, Actually I'd get the fiberglass cowl from Windy and use that. The Top Flite cowl is my biggest gripe about the ARF it's just bone ugly. The Windy cowl will fit the Brodak and RSM Nobler,The ARF is too narrow for the cowl as it's made to the origional specs of the G.B nobler. The Windy cowl is $25 and worth the money. Dennis
Probably the most important thing is finding a good pilot!
>Forget about OTS or classic legal.
>
>What mods would improve a Nobler's performance?
>
>what about 3/4"extra tail moment, plus adding a little
>elevator area?
>
>OK, "GURUS"..
>
>Waiting...
>
>Ion:)
>
>What mods would improve a Nobler's performance?
>
>what about 3/4"extra tail moment, plus adding a little
>elevator area?
>
>OK, "GURUS"..
>
>Waiting...
>
>Ion:)
You have a pro build it for you...
Jake
What would make a Nobler better?
Two words
Fa reee!
From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
William Crane
AMA 6733
ty marcucci · May 05, 2004 11:09 PM
#15 source
Building a Cobra.
Jim Pollock · May 06, 2004 10:07 AM
#16 source
Ion,
I thought you were a better student of this forum than that! The answer is already here just read all the aerodynamics and C/L flight theory threads in the archives.
Jim Pollock 
>Ion,
>
>I thought you were a better student of this forum than that!
> The answer is already here just read all the aerodynamics
>and C/L flight theory threads in the archives.
>
>Jim Pollock
>
>I thought you were a better student of this forum than that!
> The answer is already here just read all the aerodynamics
>and C/L flight theory threads in the archives.
>
>Jim Pollock
Jim,
I do know what to do.But since caution and chicken brth never hurt anybody I just wanted to check if my ideas were not stupid.
Brett confirmes what I already was going to do:
1/32" assymetry, some more tail moment, blunter LE. and more stab/elevator area.
The plane is coming out pretty light,so I'll start with 1:1 flap/elevator ratio.
I'm using 1/8" horns and built up and very stiff flaps and elevator.
"I do know what to do. But since caution and chicken broth never hurt anybody"
Tell that story to the closest chicken.
Jake
Jim Pollock · May 06, 2004 05:10 PM
#19 source
ION
Definitly use a slider horn on the Elevator. If it's really light like you say, you will probably end up with less than 1 to 1 ratio.
Probably more like 4 to 5 or even 2 to 3, flap to elevator ratios. Of couse, that being said, one of the best flying Nobler's I have ever had the pleasure of being on the end of the handle with had 1 to 1 ration and weighed a portly 34 ounces with it's ABC Fox .35.
Jim Pollock
And yes, Brett is exactly right, as usual. You could make it proportionally larger with a 59" span and call it "Infinity"!
Just kidding - - Have fun!
Brett Buck · May 06, 2004 06:21 PM
#20 source
>ION
>
>Definitly use a slider horn on the Elevator. If it's really
>light like you say, you will probably end up with less than
>1 to 1 ratio.
>Probably more like 4 to 5 or even 2 to 3, flap to elevator
>ratios.
>
>Definitly use a slider horn on the Elevator. If it's really
>light like you say, you will probably end up with less than
>1 to 1 ratio.
>Probably more like 4 to 5 or even 2 to 3, flap to elevator
>ratios.
Not if you make the tail bigger, too. Or at least not necessarily.
Brett
Brett Buck · May 06, 2004 06:24 PM
#21 source
>ION
>
>Definitly use a slider horn on the Elevator. If it's really
>light like you say, you will probably end up with less than
>1 to 1 ratio.
>Probably more like 4 to 5 or even 2 to 3, flap to elevator
>ratios. Of couse, that being said, one of the best flying
>Nobler's I have ever had the pleasure of being on the end of
>the handle with had 1 to 1 ration and weighed a portly 34
>ounces with it's ABC Fox .35.
>
>
>Jim Pollock
>
>And yes, Brett is exactly right, as usual. You could make
>it proportionally larger with a 59" span and call it
>"Infinity"!
>
>Definitly use a slider horn on the Elevator. If it's really
>light like you say, you will probably end up with less than
>1 to 1 ratio.
>Probably more like 4 to 5 or even 2 to 3, flap to elevator
>ratios. Of couse, that being said, one of the best flying
>Nobler's I have ever had the pleasure of being on the end of
>the handle with had 1 to 1 ration and weighed a portly 34
>ounces with it's ABC Fox .35.
>
>
>Jim Pollock
>
>And yes, Brett is exactly right, as usual. You could make
>it proportionally larger with a 59" span and call it
>"Infinity"!
Alternately, you could scale down an Infinity and call it a modified Nobler. That's pretty much exactly what that advice amounts to. There exists a crudely-drawn plan for same at my house right now.
Brett
Jim Pollock · May 06, 2004 09:13 PM
#22 source
Brett & Ion
Dale Barry's son actually built a large Nobler of about 60" span. If he's been reading this post maybe he will cime in? It looked like it flew pretty well to me, but I wasn't doing the flying. I'm not sure if he made any kind of modifications except scaling the size of it.
Jim Pollock
Derek Barrys Noblest. ST G 51 powered.
Plane has found a good home in the greater Kent,OH area.
SRiese5283 · May 08, 2004 02:35 AM
#29 source
>Building a Cobra.
BAD TY......Bad! go to your room.
>Forget about OTS or classic legal.
>
>What mods would improve a Nobler's performance?
>
>what about 3/4"extra tail moment, plus adding a little
>elevator area?
>
>OK, "GURUS"..
>
>Waiting...
>
>Ion:)
>
>What mods would improve a Nobler's performance?
>
>what about 3/4"extra tail moment, plus adding a little
>elevator area?
>
>OK, "GURUS"..
>
>Waiting...
>
>Ion:)
Ion,
I built a total of five Nobler's. The first two were stock out of the box (Green Box). They all flew very well but the best of the bunch was one that was modified in the following manner.
Flaps: The flaps were 1/4" larger at the tip than the stock flaps but they were shortened by four inches in length. The outer portions of each flap was glued n a fixed position.
Stab & Elevator: Increased to 25% of the wing area with about a 55-45 split in the S&E area.
Wing: This Nobler was built from two wrecks so it had equal length inboard wing panels. It required a little more tip weight but all in all it was a great flyer. It was powered by a Merco Red Head .35. It was not a lightweight at 45 ounces but flew well none the less.
Chizler: I am also building a Chizler for classic and really think it is an outstanding model just the way it is. Now if I was going to campaign this model in open stunt I would take some of the advice given from the above posts and make a few changes. Such as the 3/4" shorter outboard wing panel, increase the width out the outboard flap tip by 3/32", increase the tail moment 3/4" to an 1", and make everything adjustable that I could.
Mikey
>Ion,
>I built a total of five Nobler's. The first two were stock
>out of the box (Green Box). They all flew very well but the
>best of the bunch was one that was modified in the following
>manner.
>
>Wing: This Nobler was built from two wrecks so it had equal
>length inboard wing panels.
>I built a total of five Nobler's. The first two were stock
>out of the box (Green Box). They all flew very well but the
>best of the bunch was one that was modified in the following
>manner.
>
>Wing: This Nobler was built from two wrecks so it had equal
>length inboard wing panels.
>Mikey
Done did a fair amount of snipping...
Mikey,
One question. Your best-ever Nobler was a biplane? How amusing.
Dan
>>Ion,
>>I built a total of five Nobler's. The first two were stock
>>out of the box (Green Box). They all flew very well but the
>>best of the bunch was one that was modified in the following
>>manner.
>>
>>Wing: This Nobler was built from two wrecks so it had equal
>>length inboard wing panels.
>
>>Mikey
>
>Done did a fair amount of snipping...
>
>Mikey,
>
>One question. Your best-ever Nobler was a biplane? How
>amusing.
>
>Dan
>>I built a total of five Nobler's. The first two were stock
>>out of the box (Green Box). They all flew very well but the
>>best of the bunch was one that was modified in the following
>>manner.
>>
>>Wing: This Nobler was built from two wrecks so it had equal
>>length inboard wing panels.
>
>>Mikey
>
>Done did a fair amount of snipping...
>
>Mikey,
>
>One question. Your best-ever Nobler was a biplane? How
>amusing.
>
>Dan
Da Dirt,
Another question:
Wasn't your best ever Nobler a Flight Streak? With a stock OS/20FP? And was it not an ARF?
That's REALLY amusimg...
Ion
>Da Dirt,
>
>Another question:
>
>Wasn't your best ever Nobler a Flight Streak? With a stock
>OS/20FP? And was it not an ARF?
>
>That's REALLY amusimg...
>
>Ion
>
>Another question:
>
>Wasn't your best ever Nobler a Flight Streak? With a stock
>OS/20FP? And was it not an ARF?
>
>That's REALLY amusimg...
>
>Ion
Ion,
My best-ever (and only) Nobler was purchased off the ceiling of a hobby shop in about 1975. The 'crank pulled out after less than a dozen flights.
It was indeed amusing.
Dan
with that swoopy fuse, the Chizler would be a great candidate for a molded fuselage. You could probably mold the fin and everything in one piece and save a bunch of time and weight. According to Mathis' article it was a Nobler with a new fuse outline and wing-mounted gear. But Dick was an excellent free-flighter and could pick(find) really good wood. All those blocks can add a ton of weight if you aren't careful.
>with that swoopy fuse, the Chizler would be a great
>candidate for a molded fuselage. You could probably mold
>the fin and everything in one piece and save a bunch of time
>and weight. According to Mathis' article it was a Nobler
>with a new fuse outline and wing-mounted gear. But Dick was
>an excellent free-flighter and could pick(find) really good
>wood. All those blocks can add a ton of weight if you
>aren't careful.
>candidate for a molded fuselage. You could probably mold
>the fin and everything in one piece and save a bunch of time
>and weight. According to Mathis' article it was a Nobler
>with a new fuse outline and wing-mounted gear. But Dick was
>an excellent free-flighter and could pick(find) really good
>wood. All those blocks can add a ton of weight if you
>aren't careful.
I ain't gonna put all that lumber on it,and since I'm not good at moulds I'm just putting some formers and gluing 1/8" strips, sanding the whole thing abd trying to hide any sloppy job with some balsa filler, like hobbylite.
The finn will be built up also.
Ion
ty marcucci · May 08, 2004 02:37 PM
#32 source
There is a bunch of irony here. The original 1950/51 Nobler is now kitted by Brodak. The 1952 Nobler from MAN is kitted by Tom Dixon or you can get the plans. Then there is the Top Flight version with the green label refered to the "green box Nobler" and now the Top Flite ARF version of the 57 green box version. Also is the Top Flite version of Gieseke's modified Nobler. If you make changes to a Nobler, it is no longer a Nobler. Kinda like taking the chocolate chips out of chocolate chip cookies, they aren't chocolate chip cookies!
It would seem obvious that the Bob Gieseke "Bear" would be the way to go, bar none. It has many of the mods to a basic Nobler that have evolved over the years and is more than likely what you are seeking.
It would seem obvious that the Bob Gieseke "Bear" would be the way to go, bar none. It has many of the mods to a basic Nobler that have evolved over the years and is more than likely what you are seeking.
And it is a proven winner.
Jim Pollock · May 08, 2004 02:40 PM
#33 source
Ty,
You forgot RSM's verison of the '57 Green Box Nobler. I think that covers all versions?
Jim Pollock
ty marcucci · May 09, 2004 05:53 PM
#34 source
Thanks, Jim. I forgot that one. I didn't even want to mention the Jr. Nobler or the profile versions.
magician66 · Jul 13, 2004 05:29 PM
#37 source
Carl B
One that was easier to build, say a profile. Would like to share a picture with you but the size of the file is too large for the attachment to accept it.
One that was easier to build, say a profile. Would like to share a picture with you but the size of the file is too large for the attachment to accept it.