Electric Starter or Finger ???

LAST EDITED ON May-09-04 AT 09:13 PM (CDT)
 
Just wondering how many people start their engines with and electric starter and how many use their finger?

I use and electric starter because I can not get my engines started with my finger. I think it is a lot more fun to start the engine with my finger. A friend tried to instruct me on how to start my engine with my finger. Hold one finger on the venturi, turn the prop about 3 turns, remove finger from venturi, spin prop a few times until you hear the sound of liquid, connect glow plug wires, spin prop it should start easy. Sorry, but I can not hear the sound of liquid, at my age I can barley hear the engine running when it starts. I have tried several things to get my engines started, I would rather be flying the airplane than flipping a propeller for 15 minutes on an engine that won't start.

There is a reason for this question. Answer in a few days.

I usually handstart engines. I do use an electric starter on diesels which will not start readily and reliably on the running settings, and on any engine with a carbon fiber prop. Also on the occasional engine which decides to defy and irritate me.

Almost always use the finger on wood props, chicken stick on carbon. Got an electric starter that sees some Fox 35s everynow and then.
Bill <><

I learned to use chicken stick on anything bigger than a .40.

I have this CB .46 stunt engine, and it has a narrow margin between a good prime and gettin flooded.

I was using a wooden prop and the darn engine gave me a knock on the finger that made me see stars. I was swearing like a heathen (wow, did I curse that engine!) but i learned this lesson: Don't put your fingers where you can put a chicken stick.

I am also going to use a remote needle and a a TV jack connected to the glow plug in order to stay away from that prop as much as possible. I'm going to put a LED on the circuit so I can be sure the contact is OK.

Finger exclusively, so far. I have been warned NOT to do this with the Saito 4-strokes, so I have bought a starter . . .

Too many rips, tears and gashes for me. I only use electric starters now. Seems to be faster sometimes, too.

Well, back when I was active, it was use your finger or don't go flying. That carried through to my full scale flying with my 180 Lycoming with no starter, only I used both arms and a leg kick.

Truth told, however, the hottest model engine I ever ran was a supertigre Perry Combat .35.

When I look at the bigger displacement engines with the wicked sharp blades of a carbon fibre prop, I have to wonder how far past a Fox .35 with a wood 10/6 Top Flite it makes sense to try to start with your finger.

But it is a satisfying thing to bring an engine to life by hand.

Easy answer. Wood props - fingers. Carbon or Fiberglass: Starter. I like my fingers.

Oh, 4 Strokes: Starter. While they can be started by hand, it's a royal pain.

Gary, I have always used my hands (finger). I have an electric starter I got from a guy with some other stuff and never used it. Not even on the bench.

I have never heard of the "sound of liquid" before, but each engine is different and the key is to learning your engine. On the FP we would give it one choke turn and immediately flip to start. On the Magnum we would choke prime it 3 or 4 turns until there was a bump. Then we would flip. On the PA it is 3 or 4 turns until there is a bump, then a back flip. On each engine, although different techniques are used, one flip starts are the norm. The irony is they seem to start much easier inverted than upright--once the procedure for that engine is learned. On the PA, when it has traveled a distance on its nose, we will often "burp" it first. That involves an upright prime (no fuel in the tank) and several flips to get it going to run out the prime (and get rid of the excess oil in the engine.) But otherwise, we have never had a reason to use an electric starter. It would have taken longer.

Oh, and Matt uses a Kevlar shooting glove for safety sake when starting. But other than a rare cut from the back side of the prop, I can't recall either one of us ever getting injured in hand starting. The key is to get your hand out of the way. (Hey, I used to hand start my Luscome and occasionally my Tri-Pacer. And it was kind of mandatory to get your hand out of the way on those things.)

Until about a year ago, I started engines 100% of the time with finger. I finally got a starter, but still use the finger about 95 percent of the time. I will use the starter when it's cold and wintry, or when I am extremely lazy, or for some unknown reason the bugger just won't start like it should.
I think it's better to learn how to hand start, because you get feedback from your engine you never get from a starter, and you can learn to get it going with a flip or two most of the time. Also, I may be the only guy alive who admits to having ruined an engine with a starter.
I use a leather thong designed for the purpose, which covers two fingers; all sorts of bangs and bites don't hurt. I don't use a stick, because I don't want to bang on props with a hard thing that might break or damage them.
I always take the starter to the circle when I'm flying stunt. If it won't start and the judges are waiting, I grab the starter. I've never started a combat or racing plane with anything but fingers (except for 1/2-A combat planes in the winter, many years ago).
--jt

>Hold one finger on the venturi, turn the prop about 3 turns, remove >finger from venturi, spin prop a few times until you hear the sound
>of liquid, connect glow plug wires, spin prop it should
>start easy.

Gary:
I'm with Leonard, don't understand the "sound of liquid" comment either. Try hooking the battery to the glow plug hold the prop firmly and choke until you feel the engine bump back, stop choking and flip the prop quickly. The engine should start with a couple of flips. Count the number of times you turn the engine over before it bumps and how many flips it takes to start, these are good points to start with. Without the battery hooked up choke the engine the same number of turns as before and then turn the engine over 1 turn less than the number of flips it took to start. Should get a first or second flip start, and after a little experience should be a first flip 95% of the time. Every engine is different some need to be choked only 1 flip, some need 5-6 flips, you just have to experiment with each new engine.

I flip the prop on my 2 stroke and diesel engines, have a finger protector because of the carbon fiber props and 95% of the time have a 1 or 2 flip start and frequently use the back flip method. The combat fliers all hand start their FAI engines that turn 30,000+ RPM, they use a finger protector too. Side mounted four strokes will also start using the back-flip method, but they have to be extremely wet to the point that they squirt fuel out the exhaust. Use an electric starter with my 1/2a engines or one like the K&B 40 with the Dykes ring.

I prime the engine 1-3 turns, flip 12-15 turns, attach glow and check if I have the "Bump". Detach glow and flip 3-5 turns. Attach glow and backflip on spinner (no fingers within prop arc).

No bump means to little or to much fuel in the engine. Either prime some more or "deprime" (?) the engine.

I've used this technique from .15 2-stroke to .56 4-stroke. The key is to know how the bump shuold feel on the specific engine. Some engines have a weak one (OS .15) others have a strong one (Stalker .46).

I haven't really figured out the correct bump on the Saito just yet, working on it.

John

Glove all engines.

>Glove, all engines.

I never, repeat, never use props without "dehorning" them. That is,I ALWAYS remove ALL sharp edges from ALL props. At the tender age of seven, I received a painful lesson from a Cox 049 with a Top Flite 6x4 nylon prop. From that day forward, I have ALWAYS done the aforementioned regardless of brand or style assuming the prop belonged to me. I have a procedure for all props I purchase. I call it "prep and balance." Prep is checking props for flaws,removing ALL sharp edges,and balancing. Of course something can still go wrong, but, my policy is "NO RAZOR BLADES" on my engines.

stunt planes i use my fingers, combat i use a chicken stick

I'm kind of a low tech guy so the finger is the go. I like to stick with .015s and feel electric starters are overkill and possably damaging to small engines, a bit hard on the backplates (IMHO). Mind you with high performance engines running small dia props, its be quick or be cut. Once you get to know the engine, it usually starts in a very few flicks.

The electric starter frecks are amazed by my one flick starts.
Just a matter of good plugs, knowing exactly how much to prime and having the needle still set from the last time I flew.

New and unfamiliar engines are another story.

Regrads,
Ken

I live about 3 miles from the RC flying field. I sometimes stop there and watch the guys fly. The guys like to make fun of me for flying control line. Almost all of them use an electric starter. I notice they all use an electric pump to fuel the airplane fuel tank. The only guys that don't use an electric starter are the guys with large engines like a 60 or large they all use the back flip method. I think the electric starter does not have enough power to start a large engine. I have an OS Max 46 that I can not start with an electic starter the engine has too much compression for the starter. I can not hand start it either. My friend has hand started it a few times for me using the back flip method. When I was younger about 14 or so I had an engine that started backwards all the time. I would hand flip the propeller in the correct direction and when the engine started it would be running backwards. I would kill the engine by dropping a rag in the prop then try again and again. I finally learned to start the engine by trying to start it backwards on purpose and when it started most of the time it would be running the correct direction. I don't remember what engine or airplane that was. Most of my experience when I was younger was with .049 engines. I have always hand start my .049 engines and still do. I squirt fuel in the exhaust and flip the prop a few times. I do this over and over a few times and it starts. There might be a better way but this works for me. I always manage to break the ends off of my finger nails hand starting my .049 engines. I can not hand start my 25, 35, 40 size engines. I guess I need to practice.

Almost always Electric Starter; but I've got a chicken stick ready in case the battery runs down. I'm sorry, but it just seems stupid to me to use your finger when you don't have to.

I'm some what of a coward. I use a chicken stick or an electric starter. The one time I reached over my spinning prop & gouched my fingers,thumb it felt like they were on fire.

Index finger on my right hand with a Blue Mule glove for my Fox .15. I put a garden glove on and then the Blue Mule glove on top for my old McCoy .19.

Paul

Finger on all engines inc a YS120 4 pop (fly a little RC sometimes). Just bounce the prop of compression on my four strokes.

Regards,
Frank

.> The guys like to make fun of me for flying control line. Almost all of them use an electric starter. I notice they all use

Ever try making fun of them for being too lazy/unskilled to start their engines?

Actually, what happens and the reason for starters among .40 to .60 class and smaller RC flyers is that hobby shop owners started telling new RC flyers that they needed a starter to start their engines. The new RC guys really having no clue bought the starters and this was good in some respects allowing people with no skills to at least get their engines started so they could crash their airplanes. Same on the little whirl spin fuel pumps though they could be handy if pumping a bunch of fuel and exact measurment is not significant.

As to how many use starters, AFAIK only one guy, my buddy, used one out of maybe 40 entrants at a recent contest. He is an RC ex and worries about getting prompt starts in his inverted engine stunters without flipping the airplane which makes him uncomfortable. I use the same engine in the same configuration and have no problem with hand starts without reverting to flipping the airplane unless temps are below 65 degrees or so.

Wonder what is going to happen to my buddy when he spins her up with his starter and has a bad plug or battery? As he uses no choke before jamming the starter on the poor spinner, it turns for quite a while, maybe 15 seconds. With the inverted mount, it would seem that enough fuel would eventually be sucked in that the engine would lock with rod damage.

A glove, or even one of the rubber finger guards is no natch for a Bolly or Eather Prop. I found that out with one of the rubber finger guards.

>A glove, or even one of the rubber finger guards is no natch
>for a Bolly or Eather Prop. I found that out with one of
>the rubber finger guards.
>

If you are going to do something that gets you caught up in the prop, I certainly wouldn't count on a guard to keep your finger attached. Once you see what it does to blacktop, little rubber thingies don't stand a chance.

The goal is to develop the technique so there is close to zero chance of getting bit in the first place.

>>Finger.....with a glove on.....
>
>Duck,
>
>You're in the wrong thread, and most certainly have offered
>the wrong answer.
>
>In any case, no more proctologist jokes. Please.
>
>Dan
>

LOL.....Dan, one of the reasons I use a nice wooden stand up flitebox with the airplane cradle at 4 feet, no bending over required. As for you guys.... watch out for the glove.....

>>>Finger.....with a glove on.....
>>
>>Duck,
>>
>>You're in the wrong thread, and most certainly have offered
>>the wrong answer.
>>
>>In any case, no more proctologist jokes. Please.
>>
>>Dan
>>
>
>LOL.....Dan, one of the reasons I use a nice wooden stand up
>flitebox with the airplane cradle at 4 feet, no bending over
>required. As for you guys.... watch out for the glove.....

Duck,

Excuse me, but my recollection is that you use that gargantuan folding tool box/model stand for two reasons: 1) Bruce Perry has one and all you guys try to be just like him, 2) it has plenty of room for storage of your brain when out flying.

Of course, I could be wrong on both counts. Not...

Coming to the 2004 NW Regionals?

> With a hot engine, give it a
>twist flip this way a time or two, and if it doesn't go,
>then give it ONE choke and try again. A hot engine will
>flood a lot easier than a cold one.

That's partly the reason. The big reason not to choke, or to choke *very minimally* when it's hot is the "shrinky piston" effect. With everything hot, everything fits together nicely. If you get cold fuel on the back of your hot piston, it shrinks, and now it feels like a clapped-out Fox, and isn't going to start. The solution is to either wait, or flip and flip and flip (battery off, of course) to equalize the temperatures. After about 15 flips, you can feel the compression start to come back and then you can start again.

We (Ted, David, me, et. al. ) learned this lesson the hard way as a result of our practice technique - flying two flights back-to-back instead of going in 1-2-3 order. Saves the time it takes to move the airplanes on and off the circle, and permits tweaks for conditions to be tested immediately in the same air - instead of an hour later. It'd be a great technique to implement at the NATs practice circles, but the first time you did it you'd probably get lynched.

I have always flipped by hand with a leather glove on. I have never owned a starter and don't intend to. Just one less thing to carry.

We have a little saying on our shirts...."One flip-No starters"

Jim,

They do tint them occasionally. I have both red and green Eathers.

All,

I've spent a lot of time trying to learn a technique that would hand start a Saito 56 reliably, but haven't found one. When it's dead cold, I can usually get it started by hand...usually. When hot, forget it. There is a very fine line between enough fuel and flooded with these things. Even with a starter it can be dicey. I did finally find a consistent method to start the thing that works every time, but it's isn't very elegant.

When I ran my Saito .56 the 2nd day out I left my electric starter at home. I was forced to use a chicken stick. Every fourth time it would start backwards what a pain.

(snip) I have seen engines start when flipped
>back'ards and against compression, but it's a very iffy
>thing. And there surely is no advantage over just popping it
>over against compression, in normal rotation. (snip)
>
>Dan

Dan, you might just want to take a look at the flight line on top 20 day at the Nats. You might be surprised at the number who start their engines this way and who get one-flip starts. Matt gets in about 600 flights a year and always starts it that way now. And one flip starts are the norm. Sometimes it takes two. Once you know the engine, it becomes a pretty sure thing.

The advantage? First off, it works. But the engine never backfires against your finger inducing cuts, and your finger is not in the prop arc which can result in something a lot worse. Besides, it's neat!

I've always started my engines, up to a few years ago, by hand.
Foxes(choookee it!),Vecos, Torpedoes,etc.
Only engine gave me trouble starting out was that ##### backkicking Redhead McCoy 35.
Still start the above by hand. All my 1/2a by hand.
But McCoys and those ##### spitting kicking Enyas get the starter!

Years ago the company that made the chicken stick (Tatone?) came out with the "chicken-finger", a fairly thick rubber finger sleeve with heavier ribbing on the backside to protect against prop strikes. It still hurts if you get whacked but you probably won't bleed. That was a plus when I was a kid trying to start Fox 35s in the middle of winter in Minnesota. Anyway I bought a bunch of them and still use the chicken finger on smaller engines. I have a 40VF that is very easy to start once I learned the back-bump method.

>"I can see no good reason for using anything but an electric
>starter on any engine spinning a CF prop, especially the
>3-blade numbers."
>
>If you think 3 are bad, try the 4 blades. NO WAY to get
>clear!

I am one of these ambi-mixed-up type of guys where my left hand never knows what my right hand is doing and visa versa. I fly right handed, eat right handed, write right handed, bat (baseball) right handed, but throw left-handed and start engines left handed. Anyway, left handed just seemed logical to me. I pull down on the prop and get the hand out very quickly. I have started 3 and 4-blade props that way with no problem.

That aside, the back flipping method (or spinner method) is still the way to go. One flip starts and your finger is never in the arc. Once you learn the technique, you can get it started faster, and no need to lug the starter around.