Intermediate at the National Championships

Brett brings to the fore a pretty good point (not unusual...he's pretty sharp).

In the STUNT NEWS release about Intermediate at the Nats I stated that the BOM was in effect. I should clarify: we will award appearance points (I have volunteered(!) a crack team of Texans!) who will place point values on the models from 1-20 that will be entered into the appearance point space. To achieve these points, the model must be built by the entrant. ANY Intermediate flyer may enter, and use ANY plane that is safe, but if they didn't build it, they will not be awarded appearance points, per the rule book.

I would also point out that, because Advanced is offered at the event, we will do our very best to exclude flyers that have participated in Advanced at local contests...... we want this to be a "fun" event and want to exclude "Cherry Pickers".

We have always relied on volunteers stepping forward on the day of the contest as tabulators and judges, but would really feel good about things if we could line a few up beforehand.

See Ya

>I would also point out that, because Advanced is offered at
>the event, we will do our very best to exclude flyers that
>have participated in Advanced at local contests...... we
>want this to be a "fun" event and want to exclude "Cherry
>Pickers".
>

This makes no sense to me at all do you mean "have participated in Expert"

Bob:....
The Exclusion would apply to Expert, too. Advanced is offered at the Nats,, therefore we will follow the rule book.

Intermediate is for just that.....Intermediate flyers.
Several have chosen to fly this event, THEN move to Advanced and enter that class at the Nats, and we have traditionally "booted" the winner to Advanced (as well as purchased his entry).

See Ya

LAST EDITED ON May-12-04 AT 11:19 AM (CDT)
 
Hi Bob,

I am sure Rich means that those who have/do flown/fly Advanced "locally" will be discouraged from flying "Intermediate".

Now, that part concerns me. Local contest and a gathering like the NATS is VERY, VERY different. Methinks that there will be more than one "local contest" Expert flyer in Advanced at the NATS.

Check out Brodak's meet. There were "local" Advanced fliers who flew in Intermediate last year. "Local" Expert fliers also flew in Advanced.

In the grand scheme of things (NATS, Brodak's) I am probably an Intermediate pilot. No practice, etc., and can't develope the skills right now to be competitive. But I fly in Advanced at local contests. The local Intermediates usually are true intermediates. (And I say that with ABSOLUTELY NO DISRESPECT!) I can, at least, have a shot at placing in local Advanced, and I have no desire to beat the guys I know in Intermediate who are learning the pattern, and building their skills overall. I choose to fly agaainst guys who are better than me. (old coach coming out in me) No way I would have a gnat's chance in a tornado of placing (or top 20) at the NATS Advanced. (Maybe not even in Intermediate! LOL!!)

Gotta add: I will not have a chance to fly in the NATS this year either way.

Bill <><

>Hi Bob,
>
>I am sure Rich means that those who have/do flown/fly
>Advanced "locally" will be discouraged from flying
>"Intermediate".
>
>Now, that part concerns me. Local contest and a gathering
>like the NATS is VERY, VERY different.
>Methinks that there will be more than one "local contest"
>Expert flyer in Advanced at the NATS.

It's Rich's contest, he can do as he pleases. I agree with you that this is and apples to oranges comparison, and is not in keeping with the concept of the skill classes.

If this starts to become widely enforced, I would advocate that a one-time "anmesty" be declared where people could drop back down in order to align themselves better with the existing skill classes.

I also request to Rich that people who wound up in Advanced as the result of a "mandatory advancement" plan (like WAM skill classes) be made exempt from the rule for purposes of the NATs, since they did not voluntarily choose to move up, they were forced up. In some cases, in a system where the class of "Intermediate" did not exist and therefore they had couldn't have flown intermediate.

In other words, I assert that WAM Advanced is the equivalent of PAMPA Intermediate, and request that it be treated so at NATs intermediate, if the situation arises. I will volunteer to identify these people if they show up, and I guess you'll have to take my word for it.

For the last two years, I have been close to the intermediate event at the Nats. My friend Tom Polk won it two years ago, and I participated last year after moving up from Beginner the year before.

I dont think there was any issue with anyone in either of these cases--where someone "should have been" in Advanced instead of Int.

Both years the top 10 was very close indeed.

Last year, the real factor that resulted in fairly wide score spread in the top 10 flyoff was the wind that progressively died all afternoon. THat and the fact that the second round was flown in reverse score order meant that all of the highest scoring pilots from round 1 flew last in the dying breeze in the PM.

Not saying the best guys didn't finish in the right order, but the score spread didn't reflect the real differences in the flight skills.

I see Rich has tried to get started earlier this year so that doesn't happen again. Luck of the draw I guess!

As I recall, Rich has posted this every year that people who have flown in Advanced in the past are not to "move down" just for the sake of the trophy. I think it has been that way since the very beginning and I agree with him 100% on this. When we allow people "because its the Nats" to move down to a lower class just so they can win a trophy, it hurts it for the very people who should be there.

Every year there are a number of people who enter expert or Advanced at the Nats who do not make the cut into the top 20. That is the way it should be. These people should not move down just because they are not competitive with the top of the class. Hey, maybe we could set a limit of 20 flyers for each class so that everybody who enters could make the top 20.

No, it's an honor to make the cut. It is a goal to be achieved by those who do not. But there is nothing "dishonorable" about being in the lower tier.

I am for you here, Rich. Intermediate for Intermediate flyers only.

>As I recall, Rich has posted this every year that people who
>have flown in Advanced in the past are not to "move down"
>just for the sake of the trophy. I think it has been that
>way since the very beginning and I agree with him 100% on
>this. When we allow people "because its the Nats" to move
>down to a lower class just so they can win a trophy, it
>hurts it for the very people who should be there.
>
Without rearguing the basic point - that Advanced at the NATS and Advanced at locals are not remotely comparable - What about people who flew in areas where Intermediate did not exist? You just go, mandatoriily, from "full-pattern Beginner" to Advanced since there was no, uh, "intermediate" state?

Brett,
I applaud Rich for taking on the task of running the Intermediate segment at the NATS. It will be an "honesty" deal, I believe, as to what local class a flier is out of, and that's about the only way it can be. Unless of course someone else knows, etc., but I don't see a huge problem with letting whoever wants to enter, enter.
We do agree that local and National levels are not comparable in most areas of the country.
By all means, Rich can do as he pleases with our support. I just needed to relay the obvious disparity of the "classes" from place to place.
Thanks!
Bill <><

Just a bit of history....my opinion is that there has always been one or two standouts in skill class events in Muncie, be they Beginner, Intermediate or Advanced. The winners have clearly demonstrated that they should "move up". I know that all of those that have taken the top prize in Intermediate at the Nats have happily, and proudly, accepted the "boot".

Intermediate is an unofficial class in Muncie, and we have tried to make the event as enjoyable as possible for all involved. Remember that it is possible to be as serious as a heart attack while still having fun.

As for Advanced flyers "dropping down", I will be as fair as possible and would certainly defer to a District rep that knows the individual flyer's skills well.

I do believe that the bottom 3/4 or the field in Advanced at the Nats are true Advanced level flyers, and that the top 1/4 are "local Experts". Hence, it is true that Advanced at the Nats is a lot tougher to do well in that at local contests.

See Ya

>Intermediate is an unofficial class in Muncie, and we have
>tried to make the event as enjoyable as possible for all
>involved.
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

And from my own experience, I think you have done just that.

Thankyou for your efforts--it is much appreciated.

What about the advance class that is going to let the FAI people in is this fair the them.

Carl...I'll probably get lambasted for this, but there are a lot of folks that are going to fly in the World Championships that are not very good. They may be the best in their country, but they lag behind the U.S. by a significant amount. I feel that it would be a real shame to deny them the opportunity to compete in our Nats. I'm sure that Brett and other skilled observers might even suggest that one or two belong in Intermedaite? We'll see.

See Ya

LAST EDITED ON May-15-04 AT 08:48 AM (CDT)
 
>Carl...I'll probably get lambasted for this, but there are a
>lot of folks that are going to fly in the World
>Championships that are not very good. They may be the best
>in their country, but they lag behind the U.S. by a
>significant amount. I feel that it would be a real shame to
>deny them the opportunity to compete in our Nats. I'm sure
>that Brett and other skilled observers might even suggest
>that one or two belong in Intermedaite? We'll see.
>
>
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

Rich, You can't eat your cake and have it too.

Although I might agree with you, this goes against what you just finished saying about people who fly in one class at local contests, then choose to move down a class at the Nats.

>I would also point out that, because Advanced is offered at the
>event, we will do our very best to exclude flyers that have
>participated in Advanced at local contests...... we want this to
>be a "fun" event and want to exclude "Cherry Pickers".

Brett is right on this issue that the quality of classes at the Nats are much more competitive that at a local contest and what you are proposing is unfair. It will always be argued that the winner of one class should have flown in the next class up.

It is what it is.

Curt Contrata

BTW, I never flew Advanced and flew in Expert at the local level so I could improve and not because I belonged there.

>>I would also point out that, because Advanced is offered at the
>>event, we will do our very best to exclude flyers that have
>>participated in Advanced at local contests...... we want this to
>>be a "fun" event and want to exclude "Cherry Pickers".
>
>
>Brett is right on this issue that the quality of classes at
>the Nats are much more competitive that at a local contest
>and what you are proposing is unfair. It will always be
>argued that the winner of one class should have flown in the
>next class up.

Of course this argument has been going on since the use of skill classes at the NATs. You just have such a bigger pool to draw on that it's not comparable, and there are very few people over the years who fall into the gray area. All I have seen indicates that the skills are pretty reasonably distributed between the classes.

The I think the crux of this problem was/is the adoption of the Skill classes as offical rule book events before (or without) having established any solid objective criteria for advancement from one to the other. Lacking that, it's always going to be a matter of argument one way or another.

I just wish it didn't take the form of attempting to "shame" people by calling them "sandbaggers" and/or "cherry pickers" when in fact they got "kicked up" locally due to lack of competition and just want to find a class appropriate to their skill level - which was the point of having skill classes in the first place.

The NATs really *is* different and think we ought to be able to recognize that fact without making it sound accusatory.