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PA-61 Problem

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Scott Riese · Oct 17, 2001 01:13 PM

#0 source
Hi Guy's. I got a new pa-61 and I put it my plane that had a
PA-51 that is super. Here's the question...The 61 throughs fuel all over the nose of the ship getting very wet. I have a air filter on it. The fuel problem is there at high rpm's, low rpm's with filter, without, I even put in a larger ID venturi. Still I think I need to go to an BELL venturi. Please help!
Scott( all wet)Riese

RocketCityJim · Oct 17, 2001 01:15 PM

#1 source
Scott,

Just calll up Randy, he will tell you what to do.

For your info, my PA .51 does the same, but usually it is not too much.

Jim Pollock

Paul Walker · Oct 17, 2001 02:09 PM

#2 source
Been there...Done that...

The "spigot" venturi solves that problem.

RocketCityJim · Oct 17, 2001 02:19 PM

#3 source
Thanks Paul,

As usual - you are Johnny on the spot with a great answer.

We really appreciate it!

Jim Pollock

Brett Buck · Oct 18, 2001 02:14 PM

#7 source
>Been there...Done that...
>
>The "spigot" venturi solves that problem.
>

It solves the blow out the venturi problem (had that one, too, but it never really seemed to hurt too much), but I think there's another mode of it. A lot of people recently have been reporting profuse leaks out the front bearing. This is even if they *are* using a spigot venturi. I have no idea what is different, but it looks like an oil return groove is required. I'm sure Randy has a preferred design for such a thing.

Brett

Scott Riese · Oct 18, 2001 02:39 PM

#8 source
OK...YOU PAY $400+ BUCKS ON AN ENGINE THAT LEAKS FUEL ALL OVER THE PLANE????? WHAT GIVES? I ASK AROUND AND I GET "OH IT'S A PA" REMEMBER PAUL?
I'LL GO BACK TO THE 51 IT RUNS PERFECT. IF THIS PROBLEM HAS BEEN AROUND FOR SOMETIME WHY????, HAS IT?....
Sorry high blood pressure..... Scott(190 over 120)Riese

Brett Buck · Oct 18, 2001 03:00 PM

#9 source
>OK...YOU PAY $400+ BUCKS ON AN
>ENGINE THAT LEAKS FUEL ALL
>OVER THE PLANE????
>Sorry high blood pressure..... Scott(190 over
>120)Riese

Careful, you're gonna pop a gasket in a spot that an oil return groove won't help

You might want to ask Randy about it, it may be something he can easily fix. These things can happen on low-volume production items. I would guess a supplier changed a design without notification, or he changed bearing suppliers, and had a new, unexpected problem cropped up. This happens all the time in the aerospace industry, and you can't expect cottage industries to avoid it if Lockheed and Boeing can't.

Brett

Staffan Ekström · Oct 18, 2001 12:53 AM

#4 source
I had exactly the same problem.
I returned the engine to Randy.
He replaced the front bearing.
Now it is almost completely dry.

Staffan Ekstrom

LNeumann · Oct 18, 2001 07:29 AM

#5 source
Another possible solution, and talking to Randy is definitely recommended, but your pipe may be set too short. The 61 engine will develop more power than the 51, so prop selection, venturi selection, pipe setting, etc. may all need to be changed. On a pipe engine the pipe length is set so the sound wave returns just soon enough to force back into the engine the excess raw fuel charge that was "kicked out" in the exhaust stroke. If the pipe is set too short for the rpm of the engine, the sound wave comes back to the engine before the exhaust completely closes and can blow the charge out the front bearing. Randy mentioned that some engines he has gotten back have actually have the case ports burned inside from the pipe being set too short.

Leonard Neumann

Leonard Neumann

DMoon · Oct 18, 2001 09:33 AM

#6 source
This is the front bearing actually leaking. If it is getting on the plane on the top of the nose while it is running then it the front bearing leaking. Remeber this is RAW fuel getting on the plane. If it were venturi blow by it would be along the bottom or side of the cowl. If you run it and it satrts putting fuel all over the nose on the top and bottom you have a leaking front bearing. Call Randy he will assist you on getting this fixed.

Doug Moon

Doug Moon

BRISTUNT · Oct 18, 2001 05:57 PM

#10 source
This problem with front bearings leaking has all come about from craming 61 displacement into a 40 volume case. Vacumes/pressures and gas velocities are great, but you end up with these wet nose problems.

I've seen PA51's that did this and Jett 50's and 60's.

Years back when 40's & 46's were the go on pipes I was running MVVS 40's on pipe. I took the piston & liner from the rear induction 49 and a stroked crank and made a 51. It leaked out the front bearing profusely. I tried sleeving the case so that I only had a .001" clearance between the shaft & case, but it still leaked. I tried various return grooves which helped but didn't solve it. I tried a sealed front bearing which did slow it down, but didn't stop it. Shortly after Randy came out with the PA51 so I gave up & bought one of those so I never got around to completely fixing it.

If you take an ST60, Stalker 61 or something along those lines and compare case volume with that of the PA's & Jetts you'll see what I mean.

Make sure you keep the bottom end of the case cool too. I've found this helps, even if only a little bit. Give it plenty of room and a couple of nostrel holes won't hurt.

On the Jett 60's I found using higher nitro & smaller venturies was a big help, naturally you'll need less comp too. This works as you are letting less volume into the case and hence the case pressures are a bit lower. This might not be much help with the PA as they typically use small venturies to start with.

Anyway, enough rambling, the courteous thing to do is to give Randy a chance to rectify it before broardcasting it to the world, I know I appreciate it if my customers do that. I had a customer with a Jett 60 that had a couple of problems, he told everyone that GMA & I were selling engines with a known problem, yet when the engine was put in someone elses model & proven to be perfect I got no apologies.

BRI

Brett Buck · Oct 18, 2001 06:30 PM

#11 source
>This problem with front bearings leaking
>has all come about from
>craming 61 displacement into a
>40 volume case. Vacumes/pressures and
>gas velocities are great, but
>you end up with these
>wet nose problems.
>

This may make it more *prone* to dribbling out the front, but my PA61 has no problem at all with front bearing seep. It's hard to attribute this problem to the case volume if some do it and others don't.

Brett

BRISTUNT · Oct 18, 2001 07:05 PM

#12 source
The fit between the shaft & case is pretty critical.

BRI

DMoon · Oct 19, 2001 09:17 AM

#13 source
I have heard that there was different Bearing in the nose of the newer 61s. I also heard that the old style of bearing has since returned. I do not know the reason for the change of bearings in the first place.

Bri makes a good point about case pressure. I dont think it applies here though. I have 99 model 61. Dry as a bone. Another flyer here has a later model and leaks all over the place. Same motor. Just a stock PA 61. We do actually use the same venturi size same amount of fuel and prop. His is soaking the nose and mine is dry. They both run real good.

I think it is a bearing issue. I am sure Randy would take care of this issue.

DMoon

Doug Moon