Stuck piston (still)

I've got an old Fox .36 with the piston stuck in the sleeve. I mean REALLY stuck! I've tried all the things you guys suggested: crock pot, heat, etc., etc. Am I flogging a dead horse? That is, even if I do get this unstuck will the parts be usable? I'm guessing probably not

So, should I just go buy new piston, sleeve, con rod parts? Are they available? If so, where?

>I've got an old Fox .36 with the piston stuck in the sleeve.
>I mean REALLY stuck! I've tried all the things you guys
>suggested: crock pot, heat, etc., etc. Am I flogging a dead
>horse? That is, even if I do get this unstuck will the parts
>be usable? I'm guessing probably not
>
>So, should I just go buy new piston, sleeve, con rod parts?
>Are they available? If so, where?

Ron;

I outlined a method that I have used in this thread:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dcforum/DCForumID1/8725.html

Using this method I have freed up a number of engines and have yet to break a piston, case, or conrod.

At this point, the engine is pretty useless if you can't get the piston to go up and down, so you might as well try it (or something else). Once you get it free, I will bet that you can still use the piston/sleeve.

If this is the old Fox 36 sport I wouldn't want to spend much on a new piston and liner, if you can even get a set. I've heard you can use Fox 35 parts although I think you still have to use the 36 rod. Not 100% sure on this though. I wouldn't want to waste a lot of money on an old questionable clunker of a dirt common motor when you can usually find some similar old clunkers in reasonable condition for fairly cheap prices.

>I've got an old Fox .36 with the piston stuck in the sleeve.
>I mean REALLY stuck! I've tried all the things you guys
>suggested: crock pot, heat, etc., etc. Am I flogging a dead
>horse? That is, even if I do get this unstuck will the parts
>be usable? I'm guessing probably not
>
>So, should I just go buy new piston, sleeve, con rod parts?
>Are they available? If so, where?

Is this the baffle engine? If so, I don't think the parts are available any more. However, before getting too worked up about it, check to see if things are rusty or just stuck. If rusty, then the engine is probably shot. If stuck, this would be from dried castor and will actually protect the engine. However, getting dried castor unstuck can often be a problem. Is the piston all the way up or down? If so, that is the worst condition. If half way up, you may be able to heat it and then insert a wooden dowel in the cylinder and rap that a few times with a hammer to see if you can shake it loose. I would certainly try using penetrating oil on everything before trying this. And there is always the chance of bending the rod, although the engine isn't much good this way, either.

While oiling, turn the engine upside down and fill the piston with penetrating oil and let it sit for a bit. This may help free up the top end of the rod and piston pin which may be part of the problem. Then, after a day or so, try setting it right side up and filling the top area above the piston with penetrating oil and let it sit. Anything to loosen it up.

Oh, and for the record, I have run into problems with a few engines, too. Some engines were just made to be a paper weight, I think.

A few short years ago I gave a Fox .35 BB engine to Rich Mconnell
He soaked it some solution. Might of been Prop. Oxide. Have you let it sit in Fuel a few days? How bout putting it in the oven at around175 degrees?

If the piston is stuck covering the exhaust and bypass ports, you can fill the head with water and replace the glow plug. Thep put it in the freezer for a couple of hours. When you take it out you will find that something has moved, hopefully the piston. I would really like for someone to give this technique a try on THEIR engine.

Leonard,

I'm testing out a new theory--control line mean time to crash (MTTC). I think your comment that some engines are just destined to become paperweights might fall under corollary IV.

Corollary I: Good stuff is bad.
Anecdotal evidence as follows: I've tried buying the better engines new, carefully breaking them in and mounting them in planes built for them (bolt patterns are right, spinner matches up, good balance, etc.) I have observed that these crash first. And one crash demolishes everything beyond recognition....

Corollary II: Proven used stuff is beguiling but dangerous.
Anecdotal evidence: I've tried buying used engines and installing them in planes that were built for a different engine so things don't fit quite right. Oversize holes in the engine case, 1/2" gaps behind the spinner, etc. These planes crash, but the limited damage forces you to repair them and they seem to last, and last, and .....

Corollary III: Bad stuff is good (???).
Anecdotal evidence: You buy or have alleged friends donate frozen engines, crashed planes etc. for rebuild. Must include frayed leadouts, nicked line connectors, loose hinges, noisy engine bearings or leaky front bushing, cracked muffler mounts, etc. Ugly, noisy, twitchy plane seems to last forever, and is the only plane consistantly available when the weekend comes around.... This corollary is currently in test, awaiting significant results. Hence, all my questions on rebuilding engines.

Corollary IV: Useless stuff is worth a fortune.
Anecdotal evidence: The worst engines are taken out of production quickly. Their owners discard them immediately as junk. They become very rare. People who prize rareness over function discover junk exists and will pay a fortune.

While these are of course only theories, I'm starting to believe....

Ron B.
F4Fguy

This works every time for Fox 36s,and one or two others:
(1)Clear the work area.
(2)Place engine on it's side exhaust port down.
(3)Strike sharply in the center of the bypass with a ten pound sledge.

You'll never have to worry about a stuck piston again.

Hey Ron,

Is this method also good for McCoys Red Heads? ..........TD

>Hey Ron,
>
> Is this method also good for McCoys Red Heads?
>..........TD

Ron B.
F4Fguy

No,they're too loose to stick.

>Ron B.
>F4Fguy
>
>This works every time for Fox 36s,and one or two others:
>(1)Clear the work area.
>(2)Place engine on it's side exhaust port down.
>(3)Strike sharply in the center of the bypass with a ten
>pound sledge.
>
>You'll never have to worry about a stuck piston again.
>
>Ron B.

Yep. thats works a treat:)

This photo reminds me of the 12 cylinder Rolls Royce that they pulled out of the 1968 Notre Dame during the 1968 World Championship Time Trials. What a mess.

The pacing item for stuck engines often is the front bushing.

Lube it liberally with penetrating oil.

Just call up Linddie Englang,-- she,ll loosen that puppy right up!! hoy hoy yak yak. hoochie cootchie Paul--

Have you tried automotive carb cleaner? I've heard some good stuff about it being able to ungunk castor. It has been suggested to me that carb cleaner might be even better than anti-freeze in a crock pot. This was the theory on this, anti-freeze is made to leave a film on metal when heated, and some of the cases of motors we use are made of poreios(sp) metal and the anti-freeze can soak into these pores and attatch itself were you might not want it. If you've tried everthing else, you might give it a try. I have also been told that if you get the gallon size of carb cleaner with the parts dipping basket, that you can use the can over and over again to soak your parts and engines.

>Have you tried automotive carb cleaner? I've heard some good
>stuff about it being able to ungunk castor. It has been
>suggested to me that carb cleaner might be even better than
>anti-freeze in a crock pot. This was the theory on this,
>anti-freeze is made to leave a film on metal when heated,
>and some of the cases of motors we use are made of
>poreios(sp) metal and the anti-freeze can soak into these
>pores and attatch itself were you might not want it. If
>you've tried everthing else, you might give it a try. I have
>also been told that if you get the gallon size of carb
>cleaner with the parts dipping basket, that you can use the
>can over and over again to soak your parts and engines.

Be careful with carb cleaner as it will stain and etch Aluminum if left in it too long. Dennis

>
>Yep. thats works a treat:)
>

Well, it looks as you can at least salvage the rear cover....

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Still stuck,I see.Must be one of those "good" engines.

I usually just treat it like a stuck sleave in a Fox.
Lube all open access points with ATF or Marvel, put on old foil pie plate, Bake at 250 (or as high as 300, if 250 doesn't work) for 10 to 20 minutes or until the steam/smoke from the oil starts to rise off the motor. Works every time for me.

Ron,
If you have tried all of this stuff, it may be that the engine was crashed and put away wet. If someone left the old fuel in it the parts may have rusted together. You might be able to tell this just by looking at it closely and remembering what it looked like inside when you first started working on it.

If it's a collectors item you're worried about, relube everything and put it on the shelf.

IF you REALLY want to run the engine, POP THAT PUPPY and quit wasteing valuable bandwidth. That old, piece of junk, Fox engine is laughing at you, LAUGHING!! It's got you fooled, Hoodwinked, befuddled. You are actually treating this engine like it's gold instead of a lump of garbage thta it is.

Stick it in the vice like Bob says, or do like Ron said, but put it out of OUR misery would ya?

I can here it, ten years from now, 'Remember when little Ronnie couldn't get that piston unstuck? Yeah, how long has he been in the Boobie hatch? Well ever since he broke down, claimed he Heard the engine laughing at him. Well you know, those Foxes will do that.....'

WHACK IT and buy a good engine.

To get it unstuck, try putting the sleeve in a vise in such a manner that the flange on the sleeve will prevent it from slipping downward. Next take a punch with a large flat end, center the punch on the piston and strike it sharply several times with a large hammer. Continue until the piston comes free.
Works every time.

Just F.Y.I.

the intended use of this engine was to power an expendable stunt trainer. I didn't want to put a "good" engine on a probable lawn dart.

and OBTW the piston is stuck at bottom dead center (or very close to it...)

>Just F.Y.I.
>
>the intended use of this engine was to power an expendable
>stunt trainer. I didn't want to put a "good" engine on a
>probable lawn dart.
>
>and OBTW the piston is stuck at bottom dead center (or very
>close to it...)

OK, dumb question, if you put a prop on the engine, with the head off, will the sleeve go up and down? This is a good test to see if the piston is stuck in the sleeve or if the shaft, etc. is frozen. Do you see rust in and around the shaft? If so, the engine is probably gone. But...

If you try the above test and the sleeve slides up and down out of the case, then it is merely a stuck piston. Then after soaking it good in carb cleaner, penetrating oil, WD-40, lift the sleeve just a ways out of the engine, hold the shaft firmly with the prop, and give it a sharp rap upside down on a block of wood. This is the reverse of the dowel on the piston routine. Do not pry with anything metal. And remember, anything you do that is drastic such as this has the chance of ruining the engine--but no more than it is ruined already.

Now, as to the "lawn dart" routine: If you are flying your trainer over grass (lawn) you shouldn't hurt even a new engine. I have personally conducted numerous crash tests of this type in the distant past, and only once have I seen damage done to the engine when flying over grass. And you should never (I repeat NEVER) do your learning over a hard surface before you are confident of your ability to fly.

Take an old WOODEN prop and put it on the engine. Remove head and backplate. PLace in oven at 300degrees. Get reallly hot. Remove and turn prop. If this doesn't work, your piston is rusted to the cylinder and is most likely ruined. Leave prop on when in oven.

I thought of doing just that a couple months ago. Get an old engine and stick it on and then fight with a finicky old engine every time we're trying to intro a new person.

Wised up and got an OS 25 or 15 depending on the plane so I have a new, easy starting, reliable motor and can concentrate on training instead.

An old McCoy or something like that is great for a period stunt engine on a machine where you will keep track of it's usage, fuel and running characteristics. But one slightly lean run on the McCoy and you'll be looking for the reason your motor doesn't start like it should.

Come to think of it, you probably already wonder why the McCoy doesn't start like the rest of your engines cuzz they came half worn out anyways!

NOW HIT THAT MUDDER WITH A HAMMER AND UNSTICK IT. We are all dieing to hear the results!

Am I flogging a dead
>horse? >So, should I just go buy new piston, sleeve, con rod parts?
Ron B.
F4Fguy

YES!And YES!If you don't mind paying for surgery on a dead horse!

I think it was Steven Yampolsky that posted something about an exchange program with Fox Manufacturing. I believe that he said you could send an old Fox engine back and get a "Brand New" Fox engine at a pretty good discount or something to that effect.
It might be worth a try.

You can send in ANY engine and get half off listed retail price. Fox 35's cost 48 bucks this way. You can send them in the front end of a COX .049 and they will give the discount.

Bet they can get that piston unstuck for ya, though they might have to scrape the iron and steel out of the smelting pot, next time they fire up for making mufflers.

Not only will Fox send you a new engine for 1/2 list price, but they will pick a 35 from their RUNNING ROOM. This has been verified by people like GMA. (And I tried it with great success). Just once in a while, all the tolerances on the Fox 35 seem to come together just right, and these actually have compression and tach highest at the factory. These motors are set aside for folks who buy direct.

But again, the reason Fox engine "preparers" are successful is because they assemble engines from parts, and therefore they flush out all the chips before running. They also actually MEASURE the parts before assembling (now, that's something new!)

My Fox 35 50th stunts from the LHS, all had great compresion right outa the box!? They would hiss a little when I would check em at TDC, before the first run, But after about 20 minutes run time, they will hold compresion at TDC for at least 2 minutes and probably more!! Good enough for me.< Paul the hissmiester

Whoah!! I meant to say NEAR TDC not at TDC!! Duhh--Paul