Finally flew my Nobler...

First off, after all the prejudice I've noticed here toward ARF's and the clumsy, ten-thumbed oafs that wield them, I was a little apprehensive to fly the thing at all. I was thinking I should just use the thing for kindling and build another plane from at least a kit, maybe even from plans, but I was tired of NOT FLYING. My son's wife just had a baby and he's been unable to get out.

My son and I finally got to Whittier Narrows Thursday. I forgot our toolbox, so I knew it was going to be weird. I was not disappointed.

We first flew Paul's new Flite Streak. We checked the controls, looked OK. It has an OS .25 now, for it's maiden flight.

I release the plane and it goes straight up (full 2-stroke), does a loop and comes down, nearly taking my head off. My son's plans were some level laps and if smooth, a loop or two. He's a competent pilot, so I knew something was way wrong. We were flying in the caged circle and I got the heck out of it.

The plane looked completely out of control, looping all over, like a combat plane. My son's never flown like that. I thought he had no control, but he kept that up for an impossible length of time before finally driving the poor thing straight down into the tarmac. (I never get to type, tarmac).

He said he did have control but the plane kept coming in on him and he had to keep backing up. Maybe between him being used to a heavy, sluggish Ringmaster, not used to a light, highly responsive plane, along with the fact that we could find no indication there was a weight in the outer wing tip, added up to utter mayhem?

We cleaned up the carnage then got my Nobler ready for it's tempt with death. I started fueling it and stopped when all the fuel was obviously running out of the bottom of the plane. No toolbox, no way to remove the cowl to see what's effed up. Both dad and son pack it in and go home, pissed off.

Saturday I went down to WN by myself, stooge line assembly rigged and ready. I sat in my car and waited about 15 minutes and the guy on the circle nearest the parking lot started packing up. I walked over and was immediately struck by the high degree of coolness of his planes. 1/2A scale stunters, I think. Both had diesels. The gentleman turned out to be, the Designman himself, Larry Renger!

Now, here I am, looking at these awesome, scale models, with the world-famous Larry Renger, standing here and I'm about to drag out my loathsome Nobler? Holy crap! This was embarrassing! Larry asked me what motor I had in there and I cringed a little when I admitted, an OS .40! Ack! Imagine my self-disgust!

You ain't heard the best part!

I get my plane fueled (oh, the fuel leaked out Thursday because when I drilled the holes for the cowling screws...) and started, plane tugging on my stooge, I walk out to pick up the handle and I see Larry waving his arms and pointing at my plane, which still has the glow-plug battery attached, sticking out under the engine! I ran back to the plane and as I got there , Larry reached under and pulled the battery off for me. I thanked him profusely then went out to get my handle thinking, OK, great, now you really look like a moron, now crash the sucker really good and complete the scene!

Somehow, between dumb-luck and excellent, skilled, cheap Chinese labor, the plane flew well. I made four flights. On the third flight I managed to bottom out on the tarmac (love that word), busted a Zinger (yeah I know, rookies use Zingers!) scraped/cracked my cowling where it got smashed between the tarmac and the OS's cylinder head and busted the glow-plug's center post off. Bent the landing gear a tad. No big deal. Stuck another 11/6 Zinger on there, tweaked the gear and had a nice fourth flight.

Larry's word's on departure, after my first flight was to go leaner, I did and I got some decent 4-2-4's.

On a couple of wing-overs I noticed I could see the outer wing a little, it was coming in a little. Maybe more tip-weight?

Cheers,

Sounds like a terrible lack of line tension! Maybe no engine offset???

I went from a "super" heavy Ringmaster to a "light" Twister, and there was no problems. In fact, that Twister made me feel like a super-hero as compared with the sluggish RM.

I'll be interested to learn what the diagnosed problem turns out to be.

Nothing worst than a maiden voyage ending in disaster...

Flying Andy,
Why worry about what other people think about your equipment? Different strokes for different folkes! Larry may have one of these ARF's hidding out in his building area.

I just passed 100 actual flights with mine and I love it. The Top Flight, ARF Nobler that you assembiled is actually a great flying kit, give it a chance.

The OS40FP power plant is perfect for this airplane. I have been flying mine with a new LA40 and a 6 year old 40FP and it performs great with either. I have just changed over to the Stuka Stunt OS35FP that I got from Leonard, Wow.

I use Zinger wood Props all the time. I'll break at least one prop a year but why buy one carbon prop when you can take the same money and purchase 10 to 12 wood ones?

Now as far as leaving field boxes at home and glow drivers attached to you engines' glow plug, don't worry about it. Do you thing you are the only one? Nope, you ain't. If I am not mistaken, in one of this years Stunt News, I recall a glow driver attached to a airplane with someone flying it, in a contest, somewhere.

Remember, LUCK will favor the more prepair person.

Good luck flying, take your time to prepair and Oh yes, watch out for the dreaded pancakes.

I've built some very nice kit planes, over the years. Several years ago I built a modified Twister that came out quite nice. In the span of a few milliseconds I reduced it to it's basic atoms.

I'll start building pretty airplanes again after I've learned how to fly them without crashing them, so frequently. In the meantime, I'm grateful I can buy such nicely built planes for so cheap.

Larry, I noticed the Flite Streak but the other two are such eye-candy, the FS wasn't worth wasting the time that could have been spent ogling the scale planes! The detail work on those planes is admirable. I love diesels. Everything should be diesel powered so we don't need so much electricity. I want a diesel cellphone. Blown of course, I'm hard of hearing.

I will certainly never include you in that group of snobs that turn their noses up at ARF's! You're one of us! Someday I'll build a plane that I can feel good about showing up with. In the meantime I like this Nobler. I was hanging out with John O. Wright a couple weeks ago at Whittier Narrows and his buddy, Joel, had an ancient CL plane. It was really filthy and stained but it was beautiful in the fact that it still existed, after many, many years of use. I'm looking forward to wearing out a CL plane before auguring it. I wonder what that's like? Ha!

I'd like to convert my Falcon into a french fry oil-burning diesel, supercharged, of course.

I think Dr. Tesla had some plans for us to have free electricity, but the guys that like to meter such things had their way and we got Westinghouse.

Know where I can get an ARF free-energy machine?

Cheers,

The P-51 and Baby Pathfinder are indeed gems. I am sure the builder, Tim Meek, appreciates your compliments. It's GOOD to have friends who like to build and are retired!

The last plane I had time to fully construct myself was my Baby Clown, and that was 4 years ago.

Hey Larry,

It was not my intention for my post to sound condesending, nope, not at all. I am sorry if it sounded that way to you. I myself have been the beneficiary of a lot of you posts, notibaly your information dealing with the ARF Noblers and C*X Hyper Viper.

My intent, was to inform this flyer and get him to recognize that his equipment is no different from every other Joe bellcrank. It would be nice to have the equipment of an Expert flyer but I would rather have their knowledge and ability.

This week I've been trying to ready my ARF Nobler for a contest on Saturday. I've changed the leadouts since I have one of the early ones. Don't know if they changed the design, but they should. Tossed their rubber hinges in the garbage and am not going to use their tank, too small for a LA 40. I am impressed with the weight, guessing final weight at 38 ounces, about 20 ounces lighter than my my sole surviving beasty. All the changes take time but I think it will work out and I'm hoping for some good flights this weekend. I'll let you'll know how it works!
Bill

Finally crashed my Nobler.

I get all flustered when my routine is interupted and I hate anyone watching me, especially experts. An expert Named Paul who was only trying to help broke my routine, gave excellent advice, his presence made me so nervous I could hardly see for all the sweat pouring down my face. God got even with me early. I tried anti-perspirant once but that stuff really stings when it get in your eyes.

I had a stooge-line all rigged up and Paul jumped in to help and I lost track of my one, two thee method of doing things without completely ***ing them up.

One. Take all the crap to the flightline.

Two. Set up the control lines.

Three. Set up stooge line.

Four. Gas plane.

Five, fly the ##### thing.

Somewhere between four and five I lost enough concentration that I picked up the control handle, UPSIDE DOWN. The plane bounced along on the prop fopr about fifty feet, lines then slackened enough to alow the plane to escape my stupid, inverted input, it went striaght up, came down right at me, I ran like hell and the not -so-Nobler augered-in right between me and Paul.

I have NEVER made that mistake before.

This is why I don't want to join clubs and have a bunch od experts around making me nervous and shaking their heads at my ignorancd.

I like to fly when I'm the only one there, maybe my son. I do a bunch of laps, a few indside loops (that's all I can do) and I call that a good day.

I'm pretty frustrated right now. I have a pattern over my life of getting back into C/L, stupid stuff happens and I quit. I need someone I'm comfortable with to show me the technique, if there is one, for learning how to fly inverted without giving it opposite input straight into the ground. Does it help to say to yourself, "down is up, up is down" (That's what I say to myself when I look at the American foreighn policies and it doesn't help).

Anyone know where I can get another Nobler cowl and how I can repair these snapped-off motor mounts?

Cheers, (not really)

Crashin' Andy

Andy,
Sorry to here about your crash. I know it is a real blow to one especially when it is a good flying airplane that is new.

The best way to overcome the nervousness however, will be to expose yourself to the situation in an ever increasing schedule. This will make you concentrate on your routine of prepping the model, starting the model and flying the model by reinforcing the steps over and over. Soon it will be like any other event in which you do regularly, and then you can start to increase your level of learning past those basics.

The best way I have found to prepare for something that takes a lot of detailed steps to accomplish is to sit down and make out a checklist. Start at the beginning. The first step will be to prepare the model.
Model Prep Checklist;
1 Engine bolts tight
2 Muffler tight
3 Fuel line on
4 Needle collett snug
5 Cowl hold down secure
6 General condition flight ready
etc...

Then you can be assured you have the model ready for a trip to the Basin, or the Narrows. But how about your tool box, have you all your stuff?
Tool Box Checklist;
Same drill, you know the stuff you need...

Next, think about what you are going to need to do when you get the model to the field.
Pre flight Checklist;
1 Lines attached
2 Run out lines with a clean towel
3 Check controls free and correct
4 check safety thong is present and looped for quick engagement
5 Fuel model with the correct fuel, and amount
6 have battery and tach or whatever set out for quick access

Now all this checklist making can be accomplished at home, in your easy chair when all the heat is off, and stress is low. Your son can be a sounding board for your first lists and make up new ones until it is complete yet manageable and effective. Rewrite it as you go to the field and see things you have forgotten or want to re-organize.

But nothing in this is as important as what you do during the start, after start and takeoff (as you now are so painfully aware). The same type of checklist is necessary for this part of the flight, but it is so quickly accomplished that it must be done mentally (as they all will be eventually) and almost by rote, but at the same time remember that you must be looking for the out of the ordinary.
Today for instance, you did not check your controls for the correct movement before you launched. This is just one of a few important things you must do before the model is launched and should be on your after start/pre-launch checklist.
After Start;
1 Assure steady run
2 Assure model is secure
3 Remove battery and secure in pants pocket
4 Move behind model and set needle while taching
5 Turn off tach and secure in pants pocket
6 Check security and alignment of line clips
etc...
Pre-Launch checklist
1 Run out lines with clean towel
2 Attach thong and pick up handle
3 Check for correct control movement with slow, smooth movement
4 Scan area for clear circle
5 Mentally prepare for a smooth takeoff with a shallow climb to 5 feet and 5 level laps
6 Launch signal or pull the stooge line

These are only suggestions, however they are very close to what I use, and I do them with very little substitution or change. Know the big things that must not change, and the details that can be adjusted for the condititions. These are the very ways that I prepare to do any new task in an airplane whether it be a model or full scale, and it has helped me immensely with the organization and execution of these sometimes complex tasks

I sense you are really taken with control line stunt, so my advice to you is to repair that Nobler as soon as possible and fly it again at your first opportunity. Use your comfort zone and fly with your son or another trusted buddy, and ask bystanders, even Paul, to please leave you while you commune with your ship before your flight. Competition acro pilots are seen doing this before their flights, so it is not at all different for you, and not rude to ask to be at peace before your flight. Soon, you will be more comfortable and able to handle the basics with ease. Then you will be able to comprehend the advice from others, or simply ignore and toss out stuff if need be, without interupting your drill. Keep at it Andy, we have all been there!

Andy, send me your snail mail and you can have my cowl. I made a balsa cowl so it looked more like the 57 Green box version and much quicker to remove.
As to a bunch of guys standing around shaking their heads as to your misfortunes, never happen. They and I too usually hold our breath and make a silent prayer for the guy and think "boy, I remember when that happened to me". Heck, it still happens. I have seen the top flyers have some horrible wrecks. Model airplanes=buildem, flyem, wreckem, repairem. Of course in time the flying part exceeds the repairing part, or so I'm told.

Chris, thank you for the excellent and precise run-down on prelaunch. I never even thought of using a towel to wipe the lines, what a simple, brilliant idea. Those checklists are great, thanks. Gee. no wonder my lines have always been grungy. Doh!

Today Paul even admitted that he'd picked up an unfamiliar handle upside-down, just recently and crashed. I have no excuse I've been using that handle quite a while. he even gave me one of his handles, it's one of the Sullivan models that is molded such that you can't but tell if you pick it up backwards. Thanks Paul, if you're on this list. (I bet he is!)

I'm actually not dyslexic. I can golf, shoot bows and guns, ice skate, chew gum and walk at the same time. I play the guitar. I can even drag my right knee through turn 8 at Willow Springs on my Ducati at about 145 mph. That doesn't bother me at all. An inverted C/L plane, panic attack!

Did I mention that Paul made me come back and fix the jumbled line connectors before I picked-up the handle, upside-down? The guy really tried to help, I am so dense.

It's amazing that this plane has so little damage. I had an aluminum spinner that took a hard shot. The top half of the rudder is busted off. I know "broken off" is proper English, but "busted off" appeals to my baser, redneck origins. The hinges are separated on one side of the elevator. Both motor mounts broke off at the rear motor bolt. Cowl trashed.

Ty, thanks for the great offer! I'll email you.

I'm thinking these motor mounts could be cut off at a 45 degree angle and new pieces could be screwed and epoxied on. The problem with that is the bolts would go through the repair. Well, I could go back a little, it's close to the firewall. I haven't pulled the tank out yet and looked to see how impossible it is to get in there and replace the motor mounts. It's sitting on my work table, still wearing track dirt. Put away wet and busted. And dirty. LOL! Aw, it seems funny now, I was pissed earlier.

I know what it was. I hate to hold people up. I am always early to an appointment (although I hate it) usually 15 or so early. Today, Paul and his friend were on the way out, loaded the car and were leaving I thought, when Paul came back to help. I think his friend was waiting in the car, maybe he left, dunno. So I was rushing to be a good people-pleaser and lost my flow and disaster was imminent. Thank God I didn't hit the guy with the plane!

I can't believe that crash didn't BUST off both wings. My kind of plane. LOL! The little alien pilot has his little nose all shoved up against the windscreen, funny!

Later,

I would suggest that you choose a "coach". Just one person with *some* expierience. You'll get comfortable with them and that will help. It IS tough to fly in front of strangers. There first time I flew in a contest, I was a mess.

Also, and this is big, always try to avoid making the same mistake twice. Mistakes happen, but always find a way to avoid making it again.

While I have not picked up the handle the wrong way myself, I had this happen to a friend. From that day forward, I have the "up" leadout in the ship clearly marked and the up line on my handle clearly marked. I also have the up line marked on both ends. Now when I hook up, I can be 100% certain that this will not occur.

Aside from that, I suggest that you stick with it. Crashes will always happen. No stunt ship lives forever. NONE. My frequency of "re-kitting" is still at a level were I always have at least one back up ship that is ready to fly. In my case, the better ship is always the back up. That way, I am always moving on to a slightly better plane. Helps with the sting of losing the other.

I did test the elevator function before the "flight", but I couldn't see it! I guess between my sunglasses and the dark blue color of the plane, I can't see the ##### thing move. I'm going to put some white tape on the left-end of the stabiliser, that should help.

A coach is an excellent idea. I also like the way you remind yourself "down" when things get weird, inverted.

Yesterday when I was watching Paul's buddy do an awesome pattern, I found it more instructional to watch the pilot's control-hand rather than the plane. If I wasn't so busy today I'd go down to WN and watch pilot-hands all day. Too much homework to do.

I got an idea for repairing the plane. Can I cut the motor mounts off and install a flush-mount motor mount, made of glass-filled resin or something light, screwed to the firewall?

Cheers,

>Heck, Andy's Nobler flies a darn sight better than mine has
>so far! I was happy to assist, and certainly have nothing
>against ARFs and RTFs, having made a carreer of designing
>them! Also, Andy showed good sense in figuring that my
>waving and running toward his plane might, just have some
>significance.
>
>Regarding my Noblarf, I am in the midst of putting my DS 40
>in it to replace the OS 25fp.
>
>The OS, by the way, now resides back on my ARF Flite Streak,
>and is working perfectly again. It and the Nobler seem to
>be incompatible! I suspect fuel foaming due to the
>particular rpm range the OS runs.

Larry,
I was looking at the front end of an AFR Nobler over the weekend and thought that the front end was weak at best. I am sure that you were getting a vibration from the higher RPM range of the OS .25. In my opinion, adding 1/2" cross-grain balsa between the mounting rails would more than likely cure the vibration problem. Also I would add a 1/8" LitePly tank floor to further stiffen the front end. I am not sure what the mounting rails are made from but it sure isn't rock hard maple LOL.

FWIW: I think the ARF & ARC models do have a place in the stunt world and a good alternative product for many of the modelers. This especially true for a modeler that has just crashed his latest project and does not have the time to build a new stunter. Or someone that wants to give C/L a try and see if he likes it, or someone that lacks the skills to build a model. I do not see ARF's as a panacea to C/L world, but as an alternative and/or fill in model.

Thanks for the input, Mike, but I have Light ply in all the places you specify plus gussets to brace the mounting rails right up to the back of the engine. Perhaps I made it too stiff and it "rings" at around 12K?

Larry,
The balsa between the rails soaks up vibration and settles every thing down. The P-Force is about the same size as a Nobler and weighs in at 37 ounces and either the .25 FP or the LA fly the P-Force it just fine. The critical things are the Fuel tank, prop, and venturi.

Anyway good luck with the DS,

I wonder if 2-lb foam block would work even better? I see what you are getting at.

>I wonder if 2-lb foam block would work even better? I see
>what you are getting at.

Larry,
Sorry but the foam block would not provide the necessary stiffness to the front end and would allow the mounting rails to vibrate independently like a tuning fork. This by the way is the same problem many profiles have and require the use of a cheek cowl or tripler to cure the vibration.

This was the same problem that I had with the 750 sq. in. Yellow Magnum and a ST .60. I used 1/2" square basswood between the mounting rails at the F1 and F2 fuselage formers with nothing in between. The St .60 would not run consistently at all because of fuel foaming. I removed the basswood and replaced it with 1/2" balsa (cross-grained) full length between the formers and added the plywood tank floor. Presto the problems went away. This is now SOP on every model I build.

Hi Ron. Well, I accept the fact that it is and shall always be an ARF. It just got me into the air quicker than all the buildng I'm doing. Spread myself so thin that nothing is near completion. Between building and repairing, I needed something for the practice I dearly need. I fixed the stab incidence, it had a tad of down which made the model want to constantly climb. Wish I'd had the incidence meters when I assembled it. I have three new ones now! As to ARFs,. they have been around almost from the begining of control line. The most famous is the AJ Firebaby. It got me wanting to build my own planes, and it worked. Lots of similar models can be found in the
older magazines from the 50's and 60's. You should read all the hullaballo about whether or not die cutting was going to ruin the builders in the hobby!!?? That was in the late 40's. Nothing ever really changes.
Lots of hype by people not sitting down and full reading their rules books. You gents do have a recent rules book, right???