quick question, how do you land?

I have a question, we keep loseing tails and rudders from rough landings. So how do I land? Also I am never quite sure what to do in a tail wind and what to do in a head wind. I am sure many of you have different ways to land and would like to hear some.
Ryan

Ryan,

That is a more complex subject than it seems on the surface. Tell us about your equipment and the surface on which you are flying. Those can make a huge difference in how you approach the subject .... pun intended!

I think we can relate to your issue. My 12 year old son and I built a Brodak Training Flite Streak last year. When I test flew it for the first time (off a level grass field) it immediately nosed over on landing and broke off the fin. I even had covered our fuselage/fin with .5 oz carbon veil for added stiffness. It still broke.

I noted the stock position of the landing gear was pretty close to the center of gravity (CG). On a grass field, it will nose over just about every time. We moved the LG forward about an inch by bending both wire gear legs forward. That also bent them inward so I had to twist out the inward bend by taking the gear off the model, putting the part which attaches to the fuselage in a bench vise and twisting the axel portion with a heavy set of pliers . Now both wheels have been moved forward and point straight ahead.

We also had to add nearly an ounce of tailweight (we use a lightweight OS Max FP 15 engine w/stock muffler) to get the Streak to balance according to the plans.

The most significant change made since we STILL were breaking the fin off on landings (and on an occasional takeoff), was to replace the balsa fin with one made out of 1/8" thick basswood. Since the model was nose heavy, adding a stronger, heavier fin made good sense.

Now we rarely nose over and if we do, the fin doesn't break off.

My 12 year old is doing wingovers and inside loops with the Training Streak - about the limit of that design's aerobatic capability.

To land on very rough ground, I have found no substitute for a very forward UC. I place wheel axils at 45 deg ahead of the CG. This is not so good for landing on smooth tarmac as it can cause the plane to bounce back into the air but keeps the wheels from getting caught in long grass and flipping the plane. I only ever fly off rough ground and grass, all there is around here.

To land without bouncing airborne again, fly level just inches off the deck. Gradually pull in up to keep it just off the ground until
airspeed is washed right off. The wing can nolonger provide
sufficient lift to fly at any angle of attack so the plane arrives
with full up and it can't bounce, zoom and stall. However the
landing may be more than a little wobbly (look real ugly).
As the speed is very low, if you do flip, there is less enertia to
break the fin off. Also I reinforce the fin with nylon cloth and I
design my planes to place the top of the canopy just above the line
between fin tip and nose so much of the impact of a flip is taken by
the canopy.

A smoother way to land is with a little more airspeed and just level out onto the ground so the touchdown is gentle but faster.
That looks better if the ground is smoother and the grass short.

Try to touchdown on the downwind side of the circle.

If you would get some lightweight 2 1/4" wheels, They would help the airplane roll instead of flipping over on landing. They would also make takeoff easier.

Good advice above from Ken. When the engine quits, dive the plane toward the ground at an angle that allows the speed to stay about constant. If you don't start going downhill right away, the lines will go slack and you'll lose control. Then level out a few inches above the ground. As Ken says, just try to maintain that height. Eventually, the airplane will slow down until it can't fly and just plop to the ground.

Are your controls stiff? Stiff controls can make it really hard to maneuver the airplane to a landing.

Pavement - fly the airplane smoothly to the ground at a good speed, and try to set the glide so that you touch down directly downwind. You're *not* trying to bring it in at low speed and flare/stall it to land. You want to do a "wheel" landing where you touch down at a very good clip and the approach is just a matter of flying the airplane lower until it touches down. Once you get down, the airplane will roll around to get a headwind, and be very careful to hold neutral or a little down so the airplane doesn't take back off. It doesn't take much - I've seen a bunch of pretty heavy airplanes take off at the end of the roll in pretty slight winds. The airplane should remain controllable until it almost stops, and you need to keep controlling it until someone picks it up.

Grass - Forget almost everything you see above. For a grass landing in the wind, let the airplane slow and then attempt to touch down with the nose more-or-less into the wind. You want it to touch down with as little forward motion as possible relative to the ground. It may not be all that pretty but it keep it upright and also reduces the load on the landing gear. The airplane will want to "balloon" up late in the landing approach, so be careful about that. If it ballons up, keep flying it, and try to whip it to get more speed.

In any case, try to avoid touching down on the upwind side or with the wind into the tail unless you are really moving when you touch down. If you get wind into the tail, it not only wants to nose over, it also becomes difficult to control because, as some point, "up" elevator makes it nose over, which is rather counter-intuitive.

Remember that the controls still work even if it's on the ground, and you don't want to just give up and become a spectator just because it's rolling.

Landing gear positions and wheel sizes are relevant to how well it works, but I think the techniques are pretty much the same no matter where the wheels are.

I flew this weekend in Topeka but practice on a rather stubbly grass surface and my flights this weekend showed. But it is really pretty neat to watch the takeoffs. Instead of being thrown in the air by the rough grass, I actually get to watch the plane accelerate, the tail raise then the plane slowly start climbing. Didn't do it as well as I'd like as my low takeoff scores were 26 and top was 30 but that's not bad for a feller of my capabilities. Landings topped out at 25, I'm just to used to bleeding the speed all the way off and putting it down like Brett said. On my grass a high speed, smooth landing will rip your gear out THEN flip you over and break the tail off.

Seriously, get that little tank the ARF streaks come with and practice the first part. Remember, takeoff and level flight are scored on the first 3 laps, it's all one movement. Roll at least 15 feet and not more then 90 degrees of the circle to break ground and then slowly raise the rest of the way to normal flight level and stay there for 2 laps. Then, you may breath.

Hi Ryan,
You can try and land like my wife dose when we fly our 1/2 A's in our back yard. As your going around, get dizzy,stagger off and crash into the nearest tree, works for her.

Paul (the stooge)
-jking

Jake

PS: If you need precise (and very good) directions see the "Rocketeer's" post above.

Cool, you got some really good answers and you should be able to learn a lot from them.

One thing you should keep in mind is that some of the answers apply more to competition type stunt ships and smooth surfaces and others are more appropriate for your operation on a rough field and a flat bottomed wing trainer type of aircraft.

The distinctions you should make are: 1. Your Flite Streak Trainer isn't likely to become airborne again after landing whether on concrete or your kinda' rough field. Once it is on the ground it'll stay there. 2.because you're flying off of a kinda' rough field you shouldn't expect to have a long smooth roll out after landing. More likely you'll want (and can expect) the airplane to stop fairly abruptly after touch down regardless of the speed at which it touches down. 3. This make a real good argument for not landing downwind if you have a choice since the ground speed and the potential for damaging the airplane will be greater. Follow Brett's advice and try to time your landing so that you are going into the wind and the speed over the ground is modest.

When you start to fly airplanes with lighter wingloadings and greater performance potential your criteria for a proper landing will change. Come back on the forum when you get your first Twister or Skyray in the air and we can talk again.

Wow! You got lots of landing advice from the PRO'S!

I still bounce my airplane a lot, but sometimes I get a really nice landing. Most of the guys will heckle me if I mess it up too badly, but that's ok. Mine has the wheels really far forward like they did in the old days to keep from breaking so many (expensive) props. So is that why they call you "Prop Buster?"

You should take a picture of your plane with you pointing to where it usually breaks. Some of the experts might have lightweight ways to reinforce that spot.

Tell your brother that I'm still working on my racer. I was sick all week so I didn't get much done. It's hard to paint when you're blowing your nose all the time and you can't see 'cause your eyes are watering.... I did get the engine all put back together so I can test it out.

Dave
LA_Flyer
Internet Racing League

Quick answer... not very well!

Seriously, most times I can land on the wheels, but landing is definitely a challenge, especially to do it well. I really admire a really nice landing. Yesterday evening I was out trimming my Smoothie, and on the second flight, the engine died just as the plane was heading upwind - my least favorite thing. The wind was about 12 mph or so... pretty strong. Luckily, I was able to keep it on a pretty steep glide path to keep up the airspeed, and the lines stayed reasonably tight. However, I ended up bringing it down on the far side of the field, where the grass was kind of long, and as it touched down, it suddenly flipped over rather smartly. No damage, which was lucky. I really don't have the nack yet, but I'm learning!

Tim

Tools

(edit) Oh, are you coming to Brodak's? If so, look me up, I'll buy you a rootbeer and give you some pointers on how to do landings they'll NEVER forget, trust me!

Ryan
I am rootbeard's kid I am 13 years old and enjoy flying control line.

P.S. here is where my plane breaks.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ryan:

You're getting a lot of good advice from a lot of good fliers.As they say,read and heed!I'd like to pass on one or two little hints of my own.

If at all possible,mow the grass to about 1 1/2".Practicing on taller grass may be easier on the plane but it's harder to take off or land.

My advice is to only move the wheels forward enough to put them about 1"to 1 1/2" in front of the leading edge of the wing.Any more doesn't really help,and it can cause bouncing on landing.

Use the biggest(light)wheels that you can.

If the plane is still flipping often,check the balance point,it may be too far forward.try balancing at a point 1/4 the chord (width) of the wing from the leading edge.This will also make the plane fly better than if it's balanced too far forward.

When the engine quits,give down elevator to keep speed up.Without the engine power,the only power you have is gravity,so to keep flying speed you have to dive at an angle that will keep the plane flying.Gravity can only pull toward the ground so the angle has to be enough to be speeding up the forward motion as well as down.

The picture you show seems to show a lot of rudder offset to the outside of the circle.I know this seems like a good thing,but too much can cause a lot of unnecessary drag.This slows the plane down and actually reduces the line tension.If the airplane is straight,with no warps,you shouldn't need any(or at most,very little)rudder offset.

Check the balance side to side.the plane should be slightly heavy on the out board wing.If not add weight 'til it drops the wing to the outside.

Lastly,breaking off the rudder/fin is not necessarily all bad.If you make that joint too strong,you might break somewhere more important, like the fuselage or wing.If you still want to reinforce the joint,try gluing one or two layers of thin cloth over the joint.If your mom sews,ask her to cut some 1" wide strips of cloth with her pinking shears.the "pinked" edge will distribute the load so there's less stress.Put one or two on each side of the rudder and stabilizer joint.

One last thing;don't ever build the plane to withstand a crash,build it to fly.Light planes fly better than heavy ones.Heavy planes hit the ground harder.If you know you can crash without damage (and you can't)then you'll probably crash.

In working with a lot of novice pilots, the major thing they do wrong is to pull the lines in or yank the handle back when the model is about to hit the ground. This usually causes the model to cart-wheel, thus creating more damage than just doing nothing and let model hit the ground. If you are going whip the modelm by running back, to keep it in the air, try to do it eariler. When model comes too close to the ground, just stop your foot-work immediately and let is drop naturally.

Watch my Racing video and you will see how they come into the pits.

Thanks
Paul

Howard's good, just not good enough.

I seriously doubt if the four-up race featured equipment using fuel shut-offs. It was probably NW Sport Race, Fox 35s exclusively for power, shut-offs not allowed.

The guys were wiggling the models to kill air speed in order to hit their pits without killing a kneeling pit man. There were probably examples of pilots whipping their models, again to same purpose, that of getting to their pit area in a most expeditious manner.

In any case, even with a fuel shut-off in certain Racing events the pilot will delay activation of the shut-off as long as possible and still wiggle the model up and down to kill air speed.

Paul