Thinking about TOC for CLPA!

I was going through some old MAs the other day and ran across the 2002 Tournament Of Champions(TOC) issue. What an awesome contest! It totaly celebrates the pilots' skill. It is all about skill and being able to be put it ALL together as the week goes by.

It is the April 03 issue. Dig it out and read about it. They lay it out on how it is flown and how you get there and so on. It also has a nice prize of 50,000 bucks.

I was thinking TOC for CLPA would be so RAD!

Divide the country into, say, 5 regions. Each region has two regional events each year. This could already be two contests that are currently being held. They are just noted as a qualifing regional event. Also the Nats and FAI TT are used as qualifiers also. You have to fly in EXPERT only to be able to qualify for this. Your placing in each of the qualifying events earns you points. If you attend a regional out of your region and you place in the points you are not awarded any in this chase. You have to qualify in your region. There is a point threshold that you meat somewhere along the way in the TWO year qualifying schedule. Many will reach this point. But there will only be 21 invited to the contest. Havent figured out how to invite them yet but I am thinking about it.

The contest will be flown over a 1 week period. There is no appearance or BOM and it is a wide open event. AMA safety regs are in place. However it would be cool if the motor restriction could be tossed for this one. IF it goes to .92 it wont matter. No BOM means any custom builds by other people for you to fly is welcomed.

This contest is purely about the pilot and his/her skill.

Day one will have two rounds of normal AMA pattern flown and judged in the normal AMA rulebook. Both flights count and there are no throw aways on this day. This is the standard pattern we fly and all of these guys know it and they had better be ready. Results of who won the day and how everyone placed will be on the board at the end of the day.

At the end of day 1 there will be a list of AMA maneuvers in a certain order not known to any of the pilots ahead of time. This will be flown on the second day. This will be posted after dark. No practice on this order before the next round of flying is to start. Everyone must fly it cold. Practincing before you are to fly cold is an unsportsman like act and you will be autmatically DQd from the event.

There will be only 10 maneuvers flown and they will be scored with their FAI K-factor. The order must be flown or you will get zeros on the maneuvers you do out of order. There are no pattern points only a reduction should you go out of order. The time limit is 6 1/2 minutes not eight.(timers and shutoffs ARE allowed) The 11th maneuver is getting it all in in the time allowed. You get no extra points if you do but you get a zero on your last maneuver if you overun. There are two rounds here. No practice allowed during or in between these rounds. The highest score is kept. At the end of the day the scores are posted and the places also.

After day 2 Take your total from day 1 and double it. Add it to your best flight on Day 2 and take the field and cut it to eleven.

Day 3 starts up with NO pratice in the morning before round one. This is normal AMA pattern again scored the normal AMA way. Since there is no practice everyone will be there watching and staying up with contest and not off testsing and flying and stuff. ALL attention is on the pilot in the circle.

Round two is the free style round. You have the full 8 minute limit to perform your own designed freestyle flight. This is an open event and you can run radios and smokers and retracts or whatever the heck you want to run but it ALL has to be controlled by you the pilot. Since this is down to 11 pilots there will be a long break between rounds and you can add your radios or smokers or whatever you need to do to get ready for your freestyle. Practice here is allowed but I would do this without the hoopla, maybe just go through the motions. You want to keep your secrets in your pocket. This is a celebration of your skills. IMPRESSION is everything and the judges are encrouraged to give out the points to the most impressive and precise maneuvers flown. If that is three perfectly round loops with a red white and blue smoker then so be it. Maneuvers are still scored according to the rulebokk type of scoring. That means if the maneuver calls for a flat bottom then it still needs a 5' corner with no bobble on exit and so on. But hey if your style is impressive enough then you get a big mark in the IMPRESSION/STYLE box that is at the end of each of the judges scorecads. They are to give score for the overall feel of what they saw from each pilot. A 0-100 score for your whole pattern. 100 being absolutley out of this world precise yet very new and VERY innovative!

Add your pattern and your freestyle points together post the placings and cut to 6!

Then post a list of 10 manuevrs, could be new or AMA or combined, to be flown in round one on day 4 and no prior practice! All six are to fly it cold!

Day 4 fly round one. 6 1/2 minute limit is on this round.

Round two is another freestyle round. You have the 8 minutes to complete your freestyle pattern. IMPRESSION is everything! This celebrates the pilots skill! This has the same rules as before but I wouldnt drag out the same freestyle pattern. And you dont have to use all the 8 minutes on your freestyle if you dont want too.

Add the two rounds together and you have your winner.

The hard part. Somehow find a way to have a purse. Say 5000 to the winner and 2500 to second and 1000 to third and the rest get plaques.

This is just something I was thinking would be cool. I have no idea if this would ever work but I think it would be real interesting. I think maybe adding in the unknown stuff and the freestyle stuff might just add a little to the spectator aspect of it. People might drice out for the weekend portion to see what the top guys are doing in their Freestyle stuff and what new stuff they are coming up with. Now we already know what the best of the best are doing and all we have to do is read a list of placings. I read where 6000 people went to the 2002 TOC just to watch. They knew when a guy flew a good maneuver and cheered and blew airhorns. It just seemed like a cool atmosphere.

And not only that there is alot of new innovative stuff coming off those planes and trickling down to the everyday pilot who buys stuff at the shop. Like 200cc 4 cylindar engines!

What do you think?

I am so far from this in my control line flying, soooo far! But I was a big fan of the TOC and always wanted to go see it when it was held in Vegas.I have videos of the different years.Three different friends attended as spectators and they felt it was great.It adds a different element to the sport (hobby)that alows creativity on the part of the contestent.They have to fly the fixed rules but they also have a chance to show there own style in the free style event.This allows creativity,personal style ect to come out.They still must have the solid skills in the patterns to have gotten there ,but it is interesting to see some top flyers that just cannot get a decent free style routine and others are unbeleavable.Interesting idea .

Careful now, Doug, you're suggesting scratching the BOM and appearance points? How about devising some way to hide the flyer from the judges, so only the pattern is judged?

Dennis

>How about devising some way to hide the flyer from the judges, so only the pattern is judged?

Simple, just blindfold the judges. Bet we would still get the same winners though.

And de-emphasize the nats, why would anyone care about them if there is 50,000 to be made at some other contest. Then again, you are talking Control line so the prize will be a tad less, say 50 bucks.

Nah, afraid I can't get behind the 'Exclusive club' of TOC thinking. I prefer the setup now where every guy has a chance. Oh, sure, it's hard to come up with a 15+ finish, but if you can drag a Banshee through the pattern well enough, YOU could win the NATs. At TOC, YOU could buy a ticket and watch someone with a bunch of money and time on their hands compete. I don't do major league sports either. Why should I pay around 150 bucks a nite to watch some bad mannered man play baseball, a game I played for fun. Football, animals, basketball, less than animals, Hockey, not even from this world.

Don't turn CL into the same garbage, leave it in the amature status not the professional.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 10:59 AM (CDT)
 
WCrane,

No one wants to dempahsize the Nats. To get invited you would have to show well at the Nats. Missing the Nats or TT would be a big hole to cover in your points.

Anyway it wouldnt turn the whole thing upside down like you are making it out to be. You make it sound like if this ever happened then all of a sudden the whole event would be ruined and all is lost. Why? You can always build and fly your own planes for as long as you want no matter what any contest is doing. That all has no bearing on you and how you participate in modeling what so ever.

Thank you for your post and more thoughts for and against are always welcome.

So if you have $50K, you can subvert the AMA rules. I guess that's how democracy works.

>So if you have $50K, you can subvert the AMA rules. I guess
>that's how democracy works.

What leads you to believe this?

And who said anything sbout 50K for this event?

Of course we would want the AMA to be on board with this so that the contest could be covered by the AMA in case of an accident.

I dont see why they wouldnt be on board.

It figures that Doug would spend sleepless nights, trying to find a way to fly a no appearance points contest.

>It figures that Doug would spend sleepless nights, trying to
>find a way to fly a no appearance points contest.
>
>Larry, NorCal Circle Jerks

It fugures you would have a negative and meaningless response.

Thanks for your thoughtful input.

>>It figures that Doug would spend sleepless nights, trying to
>>find a way to fly a no appearance points contest.
>>
>>Larry, NorCal Circle Jerks
>
>It fugures you would have a negative and meaningless
>response.
>
>Thanks for your thoughtful input.

?????????????? fugures ??????????????????????????????????????????????

Whoa....Slow down Larry and Howard......

I believe that Doug is only trying to look forward, and see where one fork in the stunt road might take us. Nothing to say that the NAT's would change, as that fork is still in the road. It might be another event, separate from AMA stunt. I did something similar a number of years ago up in Seattle. We flew the first round normal, the second round in reverse order, and the third round was a pattern I developed and not disclosed to the public until the start of that round. (no practicing of it was allower either). The final score was a sum of all three rounds. I think most involved had fun, and maybe we can do it again some time.

Keep at it Doug, and see if you can find a sponsor who might come up with the cash! It would be fun!

Paul,

Good point. There's nothing to say that someone won't come up with a contest format that has nothing to do with PAMPA or the AMA. Just develop your idea, get sponsors and hold a contest.

The 3 round, 3 differnt patterns concept was actually quite a lot of fun. I flew in it the last year this was done and had a ball.

I like the idea and would even entertain discussing various details of how such a contest would be run.

Two problems: 1) As far as I know, we don't have a Bill Bennet, big-time owner of a casino/hotel complex in Las Vegas. 2) Even if Bill would have been interested at one time, he has passed from this world.

Y'all find an interested party with deep pockets and/or an interest in creating destination-oriented draws for their customers. Then we can talk in depth and at length.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 04:29 PM (CDT)
 
Paul,

I think the idea of the reverse pattern is cool. Maybe we can try that down here.

>>>>I believe that Doug is only trying to look forward, and see where one fork in the stunt road might take us. <<<<

Yep he gets it for sure.

I was simply looking ahead at what could be done to spice it up a bit. That's all.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 03:36 PM (CDT)
 
Doug,
I suggested this on another thread. It was conjunction with bigger engine sizes. The problem as I see it, is spectator participation. While I literally "grew up" flying stunt and I know what I am looking at, getting spectators "hot and bothered" over a bunch of guys going through the AMA pattern is going to be a challenge. The lines would have to much longer as previously mentioned, and the planes would have to bigger and much more spectacular. Maybe 75 to 80 foot lines to deal with the bigger ships.

All you have to do is get it on ESPN and have the tv commentators hipe it up.

Scratch that.

All you have to have is the money to start it up. The rest would follow.

Sounds like a fun idea to me. If Ultra Hobby Products had the money we'd put it up!!

Yep and the TExas Motor speedway has miles and miles of FLAT parking lot to have an event like this. There could be all kinds of things going on. And TOC would be just one part of it!

Doug, unfortunately, I have already been run off of the TMS! No thanks to some RC helicopter flyer that lost control and crashed across the road and started a pretty good fire. Now, ALL flying models are banned! However, someone near and dear to us here in the Dallas area has connections, and maybe, just maybe......He's working on it. Stay tuned.

>All you have to do is get it on ESPN and have the tv
>commentators hipe it up.
>
>Scratch that.
>
>All you have to have is the money to start it up. The rest
>would follow.

I saw table tennis on ESPN2 the other day. I have seen lawn mower racing on there. I have also seen pumkin chunkin' on there. Thoseguys can build a machine that throws a pumkin 4500 feet. It is a very obscure 1 time a year deal.

There is a time of the year where ESPN is dying to cover something. People have to write them and get their stuff covered. Is that how they get this stuff? I wonder how they do this. I am surprised I havent seen RC flying on there before.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 07:22 PM (CDT)
 
>I saw table tennis on ESPN2 the other day. I have seen lawn
>mower racing on there. I have also seen pumkin chunkin' on
>there. Thoseguys can build a machine that throws a pumkin
>4500 feet. It is a very obscure 1 time a year deal.
>
>There is a time of the year where ESPN is dying to cover
>something. People have to write them and get their stuff
>covered. Is that how they get this stuff? I wonder how
>they do this. I am surprised I havent seen RC flying on
>there before.

RC flying is on the Cable DIY (Do It Yourself channel). I happen to like that Pumpkin Chunkin special when it comes on. There is also a Trebuche or Catapult special. I was a dedicated serious cyclist a while back. I actually built a number of bike frames for myself and others. Cycling never seemed to catch on as a TV sport in the U.S. While I am on the edge on my seat when Lance Armstrong attacks in the mountains, most Americans are not. Soccer is a very defensive sport as it played, and unless you grew up with it, I find it boring to watch as typified in the "Homer Simpson" episode.
Longer Lines, bigger ships, spectacular WWF type rivalry's that the public could get a grip on might just do it.

" I'm goin to outfly all you candy as@@#34"?
"Smell what the Brett is Cookin"?

Nice out of the box thinking Doug. Don't let them throw you. Hell, ESPN spends more than 50K just getting the tape for some of those off the wall events they show. 50K for prizes would be a drop in the bucket in their production costs.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 04:45 PM (CDT)
 
>Doug,
>I suggested this on another thread. It was conjunction with
>bigger engine sizes. The problem as I see it, is spectator
>participation.

This is where I wonder what the AMA will do as far as covering something like this. I would think larger engines and planes would really fair well on the freestyle portion of the event.

While I literally "grew up" flying stunt and
>I know what I am looking at, getting spectators "hot and
>bothered" over a bunch of guys going through the AMA pattern
>is going to be a challenge.

You are very right and most if not all competitors rarely watch the contest they are in. They know the pattern they have seen it done many times and know what flyer will do what where. Spectators unless perfectly positioned to the wind with someone telling them what is coming will loose interest fast and move to something else. We flew at an RC fun fly one year just to show our pattern. There was a commentator and he was on the intercom telling the RC guys and the spectators what was coming. They ALL watched and when Steve put his Ultimate Bipe with 5' on the fisrt WO people were gasping. It was cool. About 80% of those flyers/spectators had no idea what CLPA was. Afterword there was some interest. It was cool. I think they really liked it and they knew what we were trying to do with the intercom telling the ahead of time.

The lines would have to much
>longer as previously mentioned, and the planes would have to
>bigger and much more spectacular. Maybe 75 to 80 foot lines
>to deal with the bigger ships.
>
>Milton Graham\Proparc

Yep in todays world the bigger planes really draw the crowds. People can see them and relate to them. They are most inpressive.

This is also where I wonder what the AMA would do as far as covering it.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 05:03 PM (CDT)
 
Sorry for the negatives Doug, I've never been impressed with the TOC idea, in any form. I look at the RC trends for 10-25,000 dollar aircraft with half a volkswagon engines in them doing insane hovering manuevers by the very top cream of the top pilots, then see that trying to be duplicated at the home fields. This goes along with that B-52 we saw on here last week. Where do we say, yes we can do it, but should we do it. Well, some folks can do it and can handle it.

I've stopped going to the local RC field. Got tired of trying to land or take off with an idiot hovering his airplane over the runway. Seems like these idiots were the same folks that ran off helicopters for the same behaviour.

But what the heck. If you can find the sponsership and want to run an invitational, more power to ya. Wouldn't be the first thing I didn't totally agree with that the world went ahead and did anyway.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 05:27 PM (CDT)
 
>I've stopped going to the local RC field. Got tired of
>trying to land or take off with an idiot hovering his
>airplane over the runway. Seems like these idiots were the
>same folks that ran off helicopters for the same behaviour.
>
>
>From somewhere near Parkville, Mo.
>William Crane
>AMA 6733

Snippin', I been snippin'...

Mr. Crane,

In my area, at a favorite RC field, more than half of the guys doing hover routines with fixed-wing aircraft are *exactly* the same people who ran off the heli pilots.

Granted, some of the chopper guys were really annoying, especially one fellow who insisted on hovering and flopping around right at the east end of the runway. I always wanted to make a long streamer out of Kevlar tow, dragging it into his rotors from an RC model. But a friend (inadvertently) t-boned him big-time before we figured out a weak-link-in-the-chain way of keeping the airplane from getting sucked in.

Still, this hovering nonsense can really get out of hand, and they sure don't like it much when reminded of their aversion to RC choppers...

Helped me get a circle up at our field, it's now the chopper and CL circle, if any stinkin grass ever grows over there!

There may well be times of the year when ESPN is looking for something, anything, to cover although I would not hazard a guess as to when that might be.

What I do know is that some of the off-the-wall stuff (CL Stunt would apply) we see on channels like ESPN is pay-to-air. It wasn't long ago that CART, sanctioning body for one of two open-wheel series in the U.S., was actually paying for network coverage of their races. If they had to pay it is hard for a gearhead like myself to imagine lumberjack competitions and such being regarded as money-makers for ESPN or the Outdoor Network.

There are two ways I have heard of this being done: 1) The franchising organization, CART in case cited above, pays a flat fee to ensure their race getting coverage, network sells ads. 2) Franchising organization pays a (much higher) flat fee for a block of time, they sell all the ad time, put profits--if any--in their pocket.

CART, and many other groups promoting their causes have, I am lead to believe, used both methods of gaining air time. The team and event sponsors like it as they get TV exposure, their primary reason for being involved. In fact, rest assured pressure from sponsors was exactly why CART burned down their cash reserves doing these sorts of deals. And others in trying to save the sanctioning body.

I only want to be realistic here, does anyone really think AMA would enter into such an arrangment to benefit CL? We don't even deserve a CL Stunt column published with more frequency than is Stunt News.

We're back to a deep-pockets Sugar Daddy. Or a casino owner looking to draw in...our crowd of oil-soaked, stinking-of-nitro wretches?!

At the last moment, a thought. Or a question: Does anybody really believe that ESPN covers nine-ball competition in Las Vegas because the ratings for such shows are really high and can be counted upon to generate lucrative profits in ad sales?

Admittedly, I do not know the particulars, but I'm betting that between whichever group organizes these tournaments and those manufacturing/distributing/selling pool equipment, ESPN's costs are paid in full, plus a profit, and they hold their noses in order to cover these things.

That said, I am very much in favor of the overall concept of a Tournament of Champions for CL Stunt. I think some of you may be surprised at the lack of much direct relationship between TOC and AMA- or FAI-sanctioned RC Pattern meets, but that's an item someplace between a mid-level consideration and a mere detail.

This could work if, as Dan says, a deep pocketed sugar daddy could be found.

Visualize this; The Ultra Hobbies Hooter girls are there, hanging out and getting their pictures taken with the contestants and airplanes.
Leading cheers for contestants, and groaning when manuevers aren't perfect.

The venue is crowded with exhibitors, who are selling everything from engines to arfs. Controline trainers are being sold for $75.00, ready to fly along with a free year's membership to the nearest Controline club.

High drama, shown by the camera, as a contestant's wife sees him miss an intersection in the clover!

Seasoned dialogue from the comentators: Chet, Walker scored 650 points that flight, but he got one angle wrong on the hourglass! (Instant replay shows the offending angle) Werwage is up next, he's been looking good all week in practice. He could take it all now!

Boring? I don't think so. Millions of people watch golf on television every week. Controline stunt is at least as interesting to watch as golf!

>Visualize this; The Ultra Hobbies Hooter girls are there,
>hanging out and getting their pictures taken with the
>contestants and airplanes.

Oooooooooo....I like that.

Ultra Hobby Hooters.... yessir...

The money is not important. It is the idea of the contest.

Anything that gets all the "boys" together for another contest sounds good to me, JUST PLEASE MAKE IT ON A WEEKEND!!!!

LAST EDITED ON Jun-07-04 AT 11:32 PM (CDT)
 
>There may well be times of the year when ESPN is looking for
>something, anything, to cover although I would not hazard a
>guess as to when that might be.
>
>What I do know is that some of the off-the-wall stuff (CL
>Stunt would apply) we see on channels like ESPN is
>pay-to-air. It wasn't long ago that CART, sanctioning body
>for one of two open-wheel series in the U.S., was actually
>paying for network coverage of their races. If they had to
>pay it is hard for a gearhead like myself to imagine
>lumberjack competitions and such being regarded as
>money-makers for ESPN or the Outdoor Network.
>
>There are two ways I have heard of this being done: 1) The
>franchising organization, CART in case cited above, pays a
>flat fee to ensure their race getting coverage, network
>sells ads. 2) Franchising organization pays a (much higher)
>flat fee for a block of time, they sell all the ad time, put
>profits--if any--in their pocket.
>
>CART, and many other groups promoting their causes have, I
>am lead to believe, used both methods of gaining air time.
>The team and event sponsors like it as they get TV exposure,
>their primary reason for being involved. In fact, rest
>assured pressure from sponsors was exactly why CART burned
>down their cash reserves doing these sorts of deals. And
>others in trying to save the sanctioning body.
>
>I only want to be realistic here, does anyone really think
>AMA would enter into such an arrangment to benefit CL? We
>don't even deserve a CL Stunt column published with more
>frequency than is Stunt News.
>
>We're back to a deep-pockets Sugar Daddy. Or a casino owner
>looking to draw in...our crowd of oil-soaked,
>stinking-of-nitro wretches?!
>
>At the last moment, a thought. Or a question: Does anybody
>really believe that ESPN covers nine-ball competition in Las
>Vegas because the ratings for such shows are really high and
>can be counted upon to generate lucrative profits in ad
>sales?
>
>Admittedly, I do not know the particulars, but I'm betting
>that between whichever group organizes these tournaments and
>those manufacturing/distributing/selling pool equipment,
>ESPN's costs are paid in full, plus a profit, and they hold
>their noses in order to cover these things.
>
>That said, I am very much in favor of the overall concept of
>a Tournament of Champions for CL Stunt. I think some of you
>may be surprised at the lack of much direct relationship
>between TOC and AMA- or FAI-sanctioned RC Pattern meets, but
>that's an item someplace between a mid-level consideration
>and a mere detail.
>
>Dan

Dan,

You couldnt be more on the money about how ESPN covers things like 9-ball, Strong Man, or even CART. But when they cover a one time event or an obscure thing like Pumpkin Chunkin' or Lawn Mower racing I am sure it is a cost they eat. There is no way the Pumkin people can afford to pay ESPN to cover the cost of air time. ESPN just cuts it up real short and plays more ads in these shows and it breaks even for them and shows their well rounded sports views.

Maybe a Discovery channel or a TLC channel would do a one time show. Dan is right about an on-going time taker but a one time coverage maybe they eat it on that. I mean 1 guy and a 1 camera man for a week in Muncie isnt going to cost much. The air slot would be WAY OFF prime and they need to fill some of the hours anyway. All they do now is play Trading Spaces all day anyway.

Just thoughts.

Craig I seriously doubt there will be any coverage at the WC, larger than the local papers. And that will be a stretch. CL is in its own world and is still just a hobby. Attracting coverage is going to take pushing from us to get the media there! I wonder if they have invited the media out there. I know every time I go to muncie and mention to a local about why we are there they just look at us as if we are from outer space.

Doug...I posted this on the ARF rant...better here.

I believe that, if properly promoted, folks will come to watch just about anything.....(shovel racing?).
To the uninformed, the third flight in a pattern contest, or in World or National level aerobatics with real airplanes, starts to resemble paint drying.

When Kermit Weeks opened his Fantasy of Flight in Lakeland, Florida, I spoke with him at length about hosting a PA contest on his site......the air is clear and even in the winter that weather isn't awful. He was very excited and asked for more details.

I know that a T.O.C. would work, and I would wager that there could be significantly more money than what Doug proposes available, if done right.

I had thought of running a "T.O.C." type event cuncurrently with the World Championships, using AMA rules.....my bet is that it would be a real eyeopener as to who supported (came to) such an event.

See Ya

Speaking of WC, WHAT BETTER TIME TO INVITE THE MEDIA, THAN TO A WC CHAMPIONSHIP! Has AMA even considered this? This could be HUGE! Given the world political overtones, etc., I would think certain media outlets would jump on it. HEY AMA! HAVE YOU INVITED THE NATIONAL MEDIA YET??????!!! Lets get the publicity for our sport, then get Doug working on a TOC. What we need is exposure!

hey we got pumpkin chunkin up the road from us they come from all around why not this? i like it nice idea doug.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-04 AT 02:14 PM (CDT)
 
Can you just imagine the excitement and coverage we could get from a TOC Fox .15 hurl, run in conjunction with a Stunt TOC. I can hear Chris Berman now, drawing comparisons of Phil Grandersons' mighty arm to that Roberto Clemente. And the grace and technique of of Brett Bucks high trajectory, minimal bounce hurl which conjures memories of Willy Mays in his prime. ESPN is gonna jump on this big time.

>And the grace and technique of of Brett Bucks high
>trajectory, minimal bounce hurl which conjures memories of
>Willy Mays in his prime.

Assuming you mean his prime was when he was 3 years old. My arm used to be good enough for high school ball, but nowadays, I get one fully overhand throw a week, followed by it hanging limply by my side. I need Tommy John surgery - followed be a talent transplant from Barry.

But I'll work on my 3/4 motion so I at least won't embarrass myself next time.

Brett,

Isn't that the truth. Time was, I could easily dunk a basketball...from the bottom of the key. If I tried it now, I'd need double knee surgery and a heart transplant.

Hmm, that pumpkin chuckin sounds interesting. Now if I can put my LA46 into the front, and add two lines.... You don't think they have a GOP (Grower of the Pumpkin)n rule, do you??

FRIGGIN' FANTAASTIC!!!!

ION

From Doug Moon:

"Dan,

You couldnt be more on the money about how ESPN covers things like 9-ball, Strong Man, or even CART. But when they cover a one time event or an obscure thing like Pumpkin Chunkin' or Lawn Mower racing I am sure it is a cost they eat. There is no way the Pumkin people can afford to pay ESPN to cover the cost of air time. ESPN just cuts it up real short and plays more ads in these shows and it breaks even for them and shows their well rounded sports views.

Maybe a Discovery channel or a TLC channel would do a one time show. Dan is right about an on-going time taker but a one time coverage maybe they eat it on that. I mean 1 guy and a 1 camera man for a week in Muncie isnt going to cost much. The air slot would be WAY OFF prime and they need to fill some of the hours anyway. All they do now is play Trading Spaces all day anyway."

Doug Moon

As sometimes happens, more often than many of you think it does, Doug and I are on the same page. Yep, the totally goofy stuff on ESPN and other shows is aired just for the novelty of it all. I'm not sure they lose money on these deals, but have no real way of knowing one way or the other.

There's another fella out there who might well have some serious input to this discussion: Rich "von" Lopez. At one time he was talking about all sorts of wild stuff, up to and including a big hemisphere which would keep loose Combat models from putting a divot in some unfortunate soul's head while still allowing for unrestricted viewing.

And he was talking about TV air time as well. Rich is a serious person--well, most of the time--might be a good idea to talk to him about this T.O.C. idea.

<>
>
>What do you think?

I've watched the progress of the TOC stuff for a while now. It's certainly an advanced form of competition. But, it's the absolute ultimate in exclusivity. The money required, and the massive teams required to field a competitive entry limit it to only the most well-heeled, most well-supported, and those with massive amounts of free time. As such, it's really the antithesis of the all-inclusive and modest requirements for participation entailed in C/L stunt over the years. Even the best stunt equipment is remarkably inexpensive and easy to come by compared to TOC models.

How much this is influenced by monetary prizes is open to debate. Bu the introduction of money and expensive prizes in any event fundamentally changes it. Whether you like the changes, or not, is in the eye of the beholder, but I have personally been left rather cold by the idea. I consciously avoided the few money stunt events that were held in the 80s. It just rubs me the wrong way.

A TOC-style event may or may not make sense, but my opinion is that we would need to be very careful with the rules and conduct of the event in order that we don't lose the essence of the current events - friendly camaraderie and inclusive nature.

Brett

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-04 AT 01:21 AM (CDT)
 
Great idea !
Just a reminder, TOC is an international event. So maybe 11 pilots from Usa and 10 invited top pilots from other countries.

Deep pockets ? If the main prize would be about $5000, do you call it deep pockets ? It should be no big problem (?) to get a sponsor for that, if there will be plenty of spectators. But how do you get the sponsors if you have no references ? So it would have to be tried one time without any big sponsors to see how it goes and how many people would come.

And to get spectators, i think a 4 day CL event is too much. Make it 3 days and it would be a nice long weekend.
Regs, Jyrki

I have held off until this point in the discussion to see where others would go. Let me say first off, that a TOC contest could be good and MIGHT be workable in CL stunt. I don't believe that it would work in the full vision of Doug, although the basic concept could be good. And, quite frankly, DON'T expect to get spectators. Circus Circus sponsors TOC and spectators come, well, they come to Vegas. Some will watch a while. Most come to Vegas. Put TOC in Muncie and see how many spectators show up even for the full-blown RC event. Still, the basic concept is fine for a contest. Our CL community would be interested in following the results, and, who knows, it might spur a little more participation at the regional meets that Doug envisions.
That said, here are my additional concerns to Doug's concept: I shall quote in part and then add the concern.

>(snip) What an awesome contest!
>It totaly celebrates the pilots' skill. It is all about skill
>and being able to be put it ALL together as the week goes by.
(snip)

Personally I see the Nats as doing the same thing. It is a week long event and it is all about skill. True, you don't have unknown pattern maneuvers and freestyle, but you do have the consistency of a week-long event. If you have an off day, you are off for the rest of the week.

>(snip)Divide the country into, say, 5 regions.
>Each region has two regional events each year.
>This could already be two contests that are currently
>being held. They are just noted as a qualifing regional
>event. Also the Nats and FAI TT are used as qualifiers
>also. You have to fly in EXPERT only to be able to qualify
>for this. Your placing in each of the qualifying events
>earns you points. (snip)

Granted, the TOC should be for EXPERT only, but already you are making this an expensive proposition for some, and limiting participation because of expense. There are many good flyers out there who cannot make it to the Nats for time restraints or financial reasons. Until now Matt was limited to two weeks of vacation, but we live close enough to Muncie to make it. If we were on the East Coast or West Coast and had to make the journey over (2 or 3 days) and the journey back (another 2 or 3 days) plus the expense, well, I understand why a lot of good flyers don't make it. We are some of the fortunate ones living where we are. Do we eliminate TOC participation only to those who are able to afford the time and expense of travel.

And then adding the FAI trials adds the same above burden in spades. Right now about 18 or 20 attend the FAI trials. Maybe we already have a tournament of champions here??

>(snip)The contest will be flown over a 1 week period.
>There is no appearance or BOM and it is a wide open event.
>AMA safety regs are in place. However it would be cool if
>the motor restriction could be tossed for this one.
>IF it goes to .92 it wont matter. No BOM means any
>custom builds by other people for you to fly is welcomed.

This contest is purely about the pilot and his/her skill.(snip)

Woa, Doug, woa! This contest is no longer about skill at all. It is about money, pure and simple. He who has the money wins. He who does not have the money and vacation time doesn't even participate. Without going into the BOM controversy (which we won't) and saying that you included this so people could fly whatever they want, we are assuming that the guy with money can afford it and will then buy his way in. The guy without money or time cannot afford it. Once you stray from the normal planes that we fly, you are assuming that these top contenstants are all willing to go out and purchase said larger planes (which would be necessary to compete with the next guy) with their fancy shennagigans), and also afford the time to practice with said airplanes which would be legal only for the TOC that they are hoping to qualify for (or have qualified for and now need to purchase because there is no time to build) and that they will also have the time and finances to transport said airplanes, etc. I think if you are serious about the concept, we stick with the planes we have.

OK, they aren't as spectacular for spectators. OK, there are no spectators anyway.

>Day one will have two rounds of normal AMA pattern flown
>and judged in the normal AMA rulebook. Both flights count
>and there are no throw aways on this day. This is the standard >pattern we fly and all of these guys know it and they had better
>be ready. Results of who won the day and how everyone placed
>will be on the board at the end of the day. (snip)

Is it really going to be all about skill, or is it who gets the luck of the draw and the better winds of the day. Remember the Nats two years ago. The first day of qualifying you got hit by some pretty good winds that shut the contest down. It was your second flight of the day. Your first flight was good enough to get you in and you ended up qualifying for the top 5. If both flights had counted that day, you would have been a spectator. No throwaways does not make it all about skill.

>At the end of day 1 there will be a list of AMA maneuvers
>in a certain order not known to any of the pilots ahead of
>time. This will be flown on the second day. This will be
>posted after dark. No practice on this order before the next
>round of flying is to start. Everyone must fly it cold.
>Practicing before you are to fly cold is an unsportsman like
>act and you will be autmatically DQd from the event. (snip)

Why make this the AMA maneuvers. So you cut it from 15 maneuvers to 10 and change the order. Big deal! Any Intermediate class flyer could do that so long as he were able to remember the order. Why not allow for new maneuvers such as inverted triangles, vertical or overhead square eights, triangle eights (where the flat sides are together), vertical triangular eights (flat sides together) horizontal hourglass.... A list of POSSIBLE maneuvers could be given ahead of time and then the "real" pattern given in the format you propose with no chance to practice.

>There will be only 10 maneuvers flown and they will be
>scored with their FAI K-factor. The order must be flown
>or you will get zeros on the maneuvers you do out of order.
>There are no pattern points only a reduction should you go
>out of order. The time limit is 6 1/2 minutes not eight.
>(timers and shutoffs ARE allowed) The 11th maneuver is
>getting it all in in the time allowed. You get no extra
>points if you do but you get a zero on your last maneuver
>if you overun. There are two rounds here. No practice allowed during or in between these rounds. The highest score is kept.
(snip)

If timers and shut offs are allowed, there is no purpose in losing points for over runs. The shut off will become automatic equipment for all. If you are going to do it set the time limit with NO timers or shut offs allowed. Even though practice is not allowed, the time limit has been posted ahead of time and all contestants have had ample time to determine the amount of fuel necessary to complete the pattern in the time limit. "Know Thy Equipment!"

Oh, and now you have a throwaway? Should have had it earlier as well.

>Round two is the free style round. You have the
>full 8 minute limit to perform your own designed
>freestyle flight. This is an open event and you can
>run radios and smokers and retracts or whatever the
>heck you want to run but it ALL has to be controlled
>by you the pilot. Since this is down to 11 pilots there
>will be a long break between rounds and you can add your
?radios or smokers or whatever you need to do to get ready
>for your freestyle. Practice here is allowed but I would
>do this without the hoopla, maybe just go through the motions.
>You want to keep your secrets in your pocket. This is a
>celebration of your skills. IMPRESSION is everything and the
>judges are encrouraged to give out the points to the most +impressive and precise maneuvers flown. If that is three perfectly >round loops with a red white and blue smoker then so be it.
(snip)

Woa, again, Doug! Radios allowed? Isn't this supposed to be a CL event? We already have a TOC with radios. And what is with all this smoker stuff? And, wait a minute, did you say ADD your radios and smokers and whatever (else?) you need? What happened to skill? Now you are saying score on skill and impression? No, come to think of it, on reareading it you say "IMPRESSION is everything..." When I add my smokers and radios to my CLPA plane it is going to be such a dog that it won't fly a pattern worth two hoots. The RC guys fly high, and they don't attempt 5 foot corners (well, we don't fly them either, but we "attempt"). With their planes bigger than a house trailer they can maybe attach all this other stuff to it. But don't expect the average Joe to do this.

If this were to be seriously proposed by someone (anyone) it would need to be kept within the budget constraints of the flyers who you are hopoing would be able to participate. And that means time as well as money. As soon as you make this an event taking larger planes that we might (or would) need to purchase, you had better not only get a BIG purse, but huge sponsorship for each potential entrant. And I hope that you are expecting to attract only retired or full time professional flyers who have the time to put into it.

Keep the planes simple--the same ones we are currently flying. Keep the qualifying simple--a few regional contests where anyone can enter two or three at most to obtain the qualifying points necessary. Then make it invitation only. Now it becomes an interesting contest, but it could well take away from the Nats. Better make it in the off year between FAI qualifying, and at the end of the year, after the Nats and Worlds are held.

But would they come? That is the question, would they come?

>The hard part. Somehow find a way to have a purse.
>Say 5000 to the winner and 2500 to second and 1000
>to third and the rest get plaques.(snip)

>What do you think?

>Doug Moon

Not enough money for what you are proposing. And don't expect spectators. Even if you build it, they won't come. It is not a field of dreams for the people in our country outside of the CL event.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-04 AT 02:59 PM (CDT)
 
Len,

You make alot of good points. I knew you couldnt stay away from this one. I would like to address your concerns as the post goes.

And by the way when I worte this it was just all coming off the top of my head. I had been thinking about it for a while but never actually put it down on paper. All of this is open to change or simplification or whatever.

>
>Personally I see the Nats as doing the same thing. It is a
>week long event and it is all about skill. True, you don't
>have unknown pattern maneuvers and freestyle, but you do
>have the consistency of a week-long event. If you have an
>off day, you are off for the rest of the week.

True but the Nats celebrates not only the skill but the consistancy in your flying AND your modeling skills as well. It is more of a modeling as whole event where this is only about the flying skills.

>
>Granted, the TOC should be for EXPERT only, but already you
>are making this an expensive proposition for some, and
>limiting participation because of expense. There are many
>good flyers out there who cannot make it to the Nats for
>time restraints or financial reasons.

You are right. I am proposing a contest that I probably couldnt affrod to attend myself if I went to the Nats in the same year. I cant stay for the Nats this year. Work and money are a bigger issue this year.

Until now Matt was
>limited to two weeks of vacation, but we live close enough
>to Muncie to make it. If we were on the East Coast or West
>Coast and had to make the journey over (2 or 3 days) and the
>journey back (another 2 or 3 days) plus the expense, well, I
>understand why a lot of good flyers don't make it. We are
>some of the fortunate ones living where we are. Do we
>eliminate TOC participation only to those who are able to
>afford the time and expense of travel.

The Nats is that way right now. Half the people in the country cant come because they can get to Muncie due to cost and time constrants. I dont hear you wanting it to go traveling again. With the USA's large geogrphical size there is NO way to make it right for everyone to attend it every year. It impossible.

People will be invited then it is on them to figure it out about getting there. It is not up to the event organizers to make it cheap for everyone. If they cant make the event they have to let the CD know early and someone else will be invited in their place.

>
>And then adding the FAI trials adds the same above burden in
>spades. Right now about 18 or 20 attend the FAI trials.
>Maybe we already have a tournament of champions here??
>

Maybe we do but that is for as pattern itself. But there is nothing elese there. It is a TOTAL skill event but everything is predetermined long before the competitors get there. The competitors have no input on what will be flown. They cant taylor it to their skills or liking.

After reading about the money issues maybe it would be a good idea to wave nats and tt placings like you said or have them weigh less in the standings so that poeple are not tied to it and can skip it for money or time issues and still get invited.

>
>>(snip)The contest will be flown over a 1 week period.
>>There is no appearance or BOM and it is a wide open event.
>>AMA safety regs are in place. However it would be cool if
>>the motor restriction could be tossed for this one.
>>IF it goes to .92 it wont matter. No BOM means any
>>custom builds by other people for you to fly is welcomed.
>
>This contest is purely about the pilot and his/her
>skill.(snip)
>
>Woa, Doug, woa! This contest is no longer about skill at
>all. It is about money, pure and simple.

WRONG! Money never wins in an event like this. It just doesnt. You STILL HAVE TO FLY YOUR PLANE! Why do people keep saying that anything without the BOM will only be won by the richest people is the event. This is such nonsense. As it stands now you can buy as many kick butt planes from pro builders and fly in PAMPA classes and beat everyone's butt to kingdome come. Do you see that happening? I didnt think so! Does it happen over seas? NO! Simply because there is no one design that beats all others. Then the pro builders or ARF companies cant corner the field by producing high level planes that other pilots cant get. Heck the TOC now has many different models that can all do the same thing. Some carbon. Some balsa. Some REAL expensive Some not so expensive, all have a enough lift capabilities to win.

I will say this again as I have said it millions of times. THIS EVENT HAS NO ONE CLEAR CUT DESIGN THAT FLYS BETTER THAN ALL OTHERS! IF IT DID EVERYONE WOULD ALREADY BE BUILDING IT! PEOPLE GRAVITATE TOWARDS PERFORMANCE! THEY WOULD GO FOR THE BEST PERFORMING PLANE! THESE IS NO ONE DESIGN THAT OUT PERFORMS ALL OTHER BOUGHT OR BOM MEANS NOTHING! SINCE THERE IS NO ONE BEATS ALL DESIGN THE BUILDERS OR ARF CO. CANT CORNER THE MARKET AND KILL THE EVENT! BUYING IT MEANS NOTHING FLYING IT MEANS EVERYTHING! YOU STILL HAVE TO FLY IT! YOU CAN BUY 5000 HUNT PLANES AND MORRIS PLANES AND 5000 PAs AND 5000 BACKUP ROJETTS BUT IF YOU CANT FLY WORTH A CRAP YOU DONT WIN!

I am one of the cheapest guys out there when it comes to building planes. I have all kinds of left over parts in my top 5 plane. There is probably less than 250 bucks total inclding the paint in that plane and the motor was borrowed at the time and the prop a gift. I flew against a plane that had a $600 wing in it and 100s on the paint alone and I got past him. He is basically a pro CLPA guy. He is retired and spends almost all of his waking time in his shop building or at his field flying. We already have pro CLPA guys, they just dont get paid. Me and Matt and the others with full time jobs are a a disadvantage but that is the nature of the game and I have no dissallusiona that it is really all on a fair playing table as far as time and money is concerned. Money in CLPA will never directly give some the edge if they cant do all the rest of the little things needed to get it done right. I know a guy who bought one of Chip Hydes former TOC planes. Then flew him to his house to have him put it togther and trim it out for him. This guy still cant even land the thing. Much less win any event and he has literally millions of dollars.

He who has the
>money wins. He who does not have the money and vacation
>time doesn't even participate. Without going into the BOM
>controversy (which we won't) and saying that you included
>this so people could fly whatever they want, we are assuming
>that the guy with money can afford it and will then buy his
>way in.

Yes Len it will take time and effort to win. Money for the plane will be there but not much more than is needed now if any. If you dont have the time and dont put in the effort you dont win. That is how it works in all competitions. Tough crap for those who cant or dont have the time. Me included. I dont get to go to the nats this year, boo hoo for me. So what that is the way it is now. I you dont put in the time to BUILD your plane, and TRIM your plane, and FLY your plane you dont get to win. I dont understand your point at all. The most money never wins in something like this NEVER!

Heck Dennis Chote bought four Ringmaster wings from Bob Hunt and his name isnt at the top of all the OTS competitions.

The guy without money or time cannot afford it.
>Once you stray from the normal planes that we fly, you are
>assuming that these top contenstants are all willing to go
>out and purchase said larger planes (which would be
>necessary to compete with the next guy) with their fancy
>shennagigans), and also afford the time to practice with
>said airplanes which would be legal only for the TOC that
>they are hoping to qualify for (or have qualified for and
>now need to purchase because there is no time to build) and
>that they will also have the time and finances to transport
>said airplanes, etc. I think if you are serious about the
>concept, we stick with the planes we have.

Why would there be no time to build. Maybe it would be qualify and get invited to fly in the next TOC. It could be every other year so you would have a year of flying and at the end of the regular season you get your invite. For the following year. You would have a year to put something together. Top builders can get the rig trimmed in no time. You saw Ted Fancher's score at the NW Regionals. That was 20 flights. 1 point form P Walker! Not bad on 20 flights. That is an afternoon for someone like Richard Oliver or a morning for someone like Bob Gieseke.

Yeah it will be different. Yes there may be some cost involved. So what.

Look at Windy he put throttle on his plane and took it staight into the top 5. So many people are on board with that as is the AMA rulebook and it isnt causing everyone to run out and spend cash and up the ante.

You say stay with the planes we have now. Great no one said you cant. If we somehow limit it to the planes we have now then what is the draw. It becomes another pattern contest and all the same old stuff happens.

>
>OK, they aren't as spectacular for spectators. OK, there
>are no spectators anyway.

That is exactly what I am trying to get away from and bring back some allure to it outside of the ones who already fly it.

>
>
>
>>Day one will have two rounds of normal AMA pattern flown
>>and judged in the normal AMA rulebook. Both flights count
>>and there are no throw aways on this day. This is the standard >pattern we fly and all of these guys know it and they had better
>>be ready. Results of who won the day and how everyone placed
>>will be on the board at the end of the day. (snip)
>
>Is it really going to be all about skill, or is it who gets
>the luck of the draw and the better winds of the day.
>Remember the Nats two years ago. The first day of
>qualifying you got hit by some pretty good winds that shut
>the contest down. It was your second flight of the day.
>Your first flight was good enough to get you in and you
>ended up qualifying for the top 5. If both flights had
>counted that day, you would have been a spectator. No
>throwaways does not make it all about skill.

You are right I would have been on my keester. However there could be exceptions made by the CD for events beyond the pilots control. There could be a vote by all other pilots to give a refly due to events out of the pilots control. Or it could be a toss up. Thing is we all fly the pattern 1000s of times and we know what is up with it. There are no throwaways on Friday at the Nats....You are either ON or you are OUT! I guess you want there to be on that day also?

>
>
>>At the end of day 1 there will be a list of AMA maneuvers
>>in a certain order not known to any of the pilots ahead of
>>time. This will be flown on the second day. This will be
>>posted after dark. No practice on this order before the next
>>round of flying is to start. Everyone must fly it cold.
>>Practicing before you are to fly cold is an unsportsman like
>>act and you will be autmatically DQd from the event. (snip)
>
>Why make this the AMA maneuvers. So you cut it from 15
>maneuvers to 10 and change the order. Big deal! Any
>Intermediate class flyer could do that so long as he were
>able to remember the order. Why not allow for new maneuvers
>such as inverted triangles, vertical or overhead square
>eights, triangle eights (where the flat sides are together),
>vertical triangular eights (flat sides together) horizontal
>hourglass.... A list of POSSIBLE maneuvers could be given
>ahead of time and then the "real" pattern given in the
>format you propose with no chance to practice.
>
>

Allowing new maneuvers...I thought of this but there is really only so much you can do in a 70'radius. So I left it out so that the freestyle portions could have all the new extra stuff. It would suck as a competitor if you have this hidden routine then only to have some of it proposed by the judges earlier in the week. Anything new comes from the pilots not the judges or rulemakers. That is not how this contest works. Freestyle would also be at the end of the week over the weekend so anyone who wanted to come and watch wouldnt have to take off as much time to get there.

>
>
>>There will be only 10 maneuvers flown and they will be
>>scored with their FAI K-factor. The order must be flown
>>or you will get zeros on the maneuvers you do out of order.
>>There are no pattern points only a reduction should you go
>>out of order. The time limit is 6 1/2 minutes not eight.
>>(timers and shutoffs ARE allowed) The 11th maneuver is
>>getting it all in in the time allowed. You get no extra
>>points if you do but you get a zero on your last maneuver
>>if you overun. There are two rounds here. No practice allowed during or in between these rounds. The highest score is kept.
>(snip)
>
>If timers and shut offs are allowed, there is no purpose in
>losing points for over runs. The shut off will become
>automatic equipment for all. If you are going to do it set
>the time limit with NO timers or shut offs allowed. Even
>though practice is not allowed, the time limit has been
>posted ahead of time and all contestants have had ample time
>to determine the amount of fuel necessary to complete the
>pattern in the time limit. "Know Thy Equipment!"
>
>Oh, and now you have a throwaway? Should have had it
>earlier as well.

Timers and shutoffs. You had better still have the right amount of fuel. Stuff happens. A TOC plane has 4-6 servos on the rudder alone. If there is failure then the others are there to hold on tight. Also it is alot easier for some guys to just put in less fuel than to have mess with a timer. That way they dont have to BUY anything extra for that part of the event. I was just simply offering up different options for the pilots do it however they want. My vision is for this to be WIDE OPEN! I dont want the rules to restrict anything! Accept where safety is concered. Out of open contests comes innovation.

You get a throwaway here becuase the judges have thrown you for a loop and I was just trying to be nice. We all already know the pattern and there are no breaks there. Be ON or Be OUT!

>
>
>
>>Round two is the free style round. You have the
>>full 8 minute limit to perform your own designed
>>freestyle flight. This is an open event and you can
>>run radios and smokers and retracts or whatever the
>>heck you want to run but it ALL has to be controlled
>>by you the pilot. Since this is down to 11 pilots there
>>will be a long break between rounds and you can add your
>?radios or smokers or whatever you need to do to get ready
>>for your freestyle. Practice here is allowed but I would
>>do this without the hoopla, maybe just go through the motions.
>>You want to keep your secrets in your pocket. This is a
>>celebration of your skills. IMPRESSION is everything and the
>>judges are encrouraged to give out the points to the most +impressive and precise maneuvers flown. If that is three perfectly >round loops with a red white and blue smoker then so be it.
>(snip)
>
>Woa, again, Doug! Radios allowed? Isn't this supposed to
>be a CL event? We already have a TOC with radios. And what
>is with all this smoker stuff? And, wait a minute, did you
>say ADD your radios and smokers and whatever (else?) you
>need? What happened to skill? Now you are saying score on
>skill and impression? No, come to think of it, on
>reareading it you say "IMPRESSION is everything..." When I
>add my smokers and radios to my CLPA plane it is going to be
>such a dog that it won't fly a pattern worth two hoots.

OK you are in pattern mode here! Get out of pattern mode. You arent trying to fly just the pattern. If you add a radio to operate a smoker and a smoker system to a plane the size of Miss Ashley II that weighs only 62 oz at the time you will have a 70-72 oz plane. I have flown MA II at 70 oz as it now with the CF wing it flew better than ANY plane I have ever flown! Anyway no one said you had to fly the pattern.

Also if you dont want to add all that stuff then dont. You can add this stuff and scrafice some performance which means your maneuvers will be of the different variety. Or you can go with the standard light weight stunt plane and really come up with some amazing maneuvers like you mentioned earlier in the thread. It is all up to you the pilot to think it all out. The contest is NOT, here is rulebook do what it says and you win. It is wide open be the most innovative and precise at the same time and you will come out on top. Over do it with gadgets and you will a scale plane that lumbers around. Under do it and you dont have any new look to it. It is a very delicate balancing act.

The
>RC guys fly high, and they don't attempt 5 foot corners
>(well, we don't fly them either, but we "attempt"). With
>their planes bigger than a house trailer they can maybe
>attach all this other stuff to it. But don't expect the
>average Joe to do this.

They dont fly high. They fly a knife edge at about 10' off the tarmac with a 10,000$ plane. They hover they do all kinds of stuff right off the ground. You should see some of the crazy stuff they do. It is so innovative that some of the real pilots have started to try to immulate the TOC pilots.

6 point barrel rolls at 10'! It is awesome!

>
>If this were to be seriously proposed by someone (anyone) it
>would need to be kept within the budget constraints of the
>flyers who you are hopoing would be able to participate.

No it would not. You propose it and if it wouldnt work then they wouldnt come. Len there are all kinds of people making all kinds of different amount of salary compete in CLPA. For a year I have made next to nothing. But there are guys out there making 100K plus. What people can afford is up to them. I am simply saying it is an open event. Do what you want to make an impression. If it gets to expensive for people then they wont come and it either dies or changes are made.

>And that means time as well as money. As soon as you make
>this an event taking larger planes that we might (or would)
>need to purchase, you had better not only get a BIG purse,
>but huge sponsorship for each potential entrant. And I hope
>that you are expecting to attract only retired or full time
>professional flyers who have the time to put into it.

You act like it is cheap right now to fly stunt. To be in the top 5 in most cases it isnt cheap. 200-400$ engine, 200$ airplane, 8 months to a year to build it, 150+ to finish it, then a fortune in time spent to practice and win with it. Then travel to Muncie on top of all that for a week. This isnt cheap no matter how you slice it. I got real lucky on the plane I built for next to nothing and Brad didnt want his 65 anymore and let me borrow it and Bob had an extra 4 blade laying around. How many times has all those circumstances happened to you and given you the perfect combo for your skills to take you to the top in one season?

We already have many full time flyers, retired guys who just fly and build all the time. Matt is up against those guys now as we speak. So what is the difference.

This is where you are thinking that all of a sudden a bought larger plane automatically wins. WRONG! In CL there is a performance envelope. To big and you are out of it and you wont or cant do enough precision to win. You can compete in this with a normal plane and really bring in some new cool maneuvers and get big points without all the bells and whistles. How we well ever know which is more impressive if we dont try it?

>
>Keep the planes simple--the same ones we are currently
>flying.

You can bring whatever plane simple or not that you want. If you get the invite it is on you to prepare for the event the best way you see fit.

Keep the qualifying simple--a few regional contests
>where anyone can enter two or three at most to obtain the
>qualifying points necessary. Then make it invitation only.
>Now it becomes an interesting contest, but it could well
>take away from the Nats. Better make it in the off year
>between FAI qualifying, and at the end of the year, after
>the Nats and Worlds are held.
>
>But would they come? That is the question, would they come?
>
>
>
>>The hard part. Somehow find a way to have a purse.
>>Say 5000 to the winner and 2500 to second and 1000
>>to third and the rest get plaques.(snip)
>
>>What do you think?
>
>
>>Doug Moon
>
>
>Not enough money for what you are proposing. And don't
>expect spectators. Even if you build it, they won't come.

You might be right but I flat out HATE that attitude!

>It is not a field of dreams for the people in our country
>outside of the CL event.

Why does it have to be that way. I flew in an RC fun fly with a pattern plane and there was alot of interest. Many had never even seen a CL plane fly.

You mentioned in there somewhere about Muncie wont attract anyone. Well why does it have to be in Muncie? We can have it anywhere we can secure a site.

You missed my point on the money. IF you allow bigger engines, and then suggest radios, smoke, or whatever, you are proposing a plane that will be suited for one contest only--IF you qualify. There are some people who would pretty well figure to know they would qualify. Maybe they can plan ahead--assuming they have the time and the money. For the rest, if you aren't going to qualify, you aren't going to build/buy. If you do qualify, you have to decide if you can afford it. That's where it gets down to money instead of skill. If you keep it in the bounds of the same planes we have always been flying--skip the fancy, scymancy and make it a flying event as your propose, and with the same constraints as are now imposed upon us in out other competitions--then it is merely down to time and travel. But, don't expect to draw crowds for a CL contest. It will always be a flying event, not a spectator event.

I will go to the Worlds because it is Held at Muncie with the Nats immediately following. If the Worlds were at Lincoln, or Huston or Memphis, I would go to the Nats and skip the worlds. But then, that's me. If you held a TOC at one of those places independent of another contest, I probably wouldn't bother. Would people who are not CL minded attend? Somehow I doubt it. We can't even get the "average Joe" in Muncie to come out and watch the Nats being held in Muncie. And they can see it for free.

Doug,

Brett's exactly on with me in his opnion of a C/L Stunt TOC.
Only for the most well healed of C/L Stunt participants.
Adding an unknown flight to a separate event at a local contest would actually be O.K. with me.

But keep it relatively simple. No C - A - S - H winnings involved. That ruins everything!

>
>At the end of day 1 there will be a list of AMA maneuvers in
>a certain order not known to any of the pilots ahead of
>time. This will be flown on the second day. This will be
>posted after dark. No practice on this order before the
>next round of flying is to start. Everyone must fly it
>cold. Practincing before you are to fly cold is an
>unsportsman like act and you will be autmatically DQd from
>the event.
>
Doug
This "Unknown" sequence part is really showing some FRESH thinking. Even though it is not new, incorporating the Unknown round into stunt is something I would like to see for sure. I feel you are representing a new geration of stunt flyers who are starting to think about different ways of moving the event in different directions. There will always be the old guard that does not want any changes or new events, but, my feeling is, we are defintely going to see some new and intersting things in stunt in the future. Some things will work and some won't. But, the principle thing here is that people like yourself are doing some FRESH THINKING.

TOC TYPE CONTESTS (Doug Moon)
ONE WORLD RULES (Milton Graham)
SCALE ONLY STUNT CLASSES (Windy Urtnowski)
ELECTRIC STUNT SHIPS (Claus Maikis, Mike Palko)
4 STROKE MOTORS (Luciano Compostella, Beringers)
MULTIPLE ENGINE STUNTERS (Bob Whitely,Paul Walker,Windy U.)
STUNT PLANE CONSTRUCTION ON VIDEO (Windy Urtnowski)
NOSTALGIA ONLY CONTEST (Mike Keville) Man, what a winner!!
MASS PRODUCED CL ARF'S (Topflite Manufacturing)
HOLLOW FOAM WINGS IN STUNT (Bob Hunt)

Doug,

Mr. Bill Bennet was nobody's fool. He drug a whole bunch of people down to Las Vegas via model aircraft and many of other promotions. Remember the canard Circus Circus Unlimited hydroplane? Designed by local guy Ed Fisher, whom I know through RC hydros. (Full-size boat was built too heavy, although last time I looked it was being stored just a few miles from my house.)

Back when I was flying a lot of RC, every two years there would be so many pink jackets put into use out at the field it was enough to make one retch. Thankfully most of those wearing said pink jackets were the sort of folk I didn't much care for, so none were left in my pit area.

Anyway, you are exactly correct in your enthusiasm, in unrestrained rules, forecasts of radical equipment being put into play. Don't let old-school thinking, as displayed superbly by Len in a preceding post, get ya down.

If it ain't Whiz-Bang, High-Zoot stuff with a great deal of impact (couldn't resist) behind it, there will be no show. And you're after a Big Show, correct?

My man, you're on the right track in your thinking, all else is merely details. Don't let the naysayers weigh you down, especially as they can so easily opt out.

Which, truth be told, would be my choice. I have for many years looked askance at the T.O.C. competitions, would not personally be interested in the CL equivalent. But that is not reason enough to say what you are proposing won't work, to list a whole series of rather silly objections which serve only to confirm that not everybody gets it.

Dan

P.S. Still semi-seriously considering hauling my rear end down to local post office, returning your plan set. I am so irresponsible sometimes...

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-04 AT 02:52 PM (CDT)
 
Doug, my man!

Just read your response to Len in posting number 45 (I think).

**DO NOT spin your wheels in this way. A little give and take will help you to knock some of the sharp edges off your concepts and ideas, but trying to convert **all** of us to your way of thinking is simply going to exhaust you.

And you thought taking care of a new baby has been keeping you out of the shop!

If you are serious, and I believe you to be, you must concentrate on a high-level approach. For example, write a business plan, even if it is very basic. You need the concept put forth, need to account for where the money is coming from, where it is going.

As I said before, although not in so many words, you can easily be drowned in details at this stage. **Don't let folks do that to you!!**

There is a time in any business plan, any plan for promotion of a specific event, to deal with details, the real minutea in which I, frankly, revel in getting right.

You are months, maybe years, from that point.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-09-04 AT 04:26 PM (CDT)
 
Hi Doug!

I like your posting and hope that you won't get too wound up in defending your ideas as they stand.

If you really are thinking about implementing this event, you will probably will find that the guys who come on board to make your fantasy a reality, will have ideas of thier own. Get used to it.

Several years ago, the combat guys created a "Money Contest" and if I'm correct, It has been a success. I forgot where it was but money and prizes were put up and people came.

I allways thought that it would be neat if some PAMPA members created a similar event. Same planes, same rules (Except BOM I guess.), etc. Just put up some cash and prizes and let us have-at-it!

I'll bet that if you threw it in Vegas or someplace like that, it would be easy (Easier anyway!) to get a few sponsors. That would also make it easier for flyers to justify traveling to the event. ("Gee Honey, you could use a vacation anyway and while I'm out playing with my toy airplane, you and your girlfriends can play the slots and see some shows!")

It is additionaly possible to set up highly discounted accomodations there without too much fuss. Just tell them how many participants are coming and they'll set you up! The appraisal organization I belong to has classes and meetings there on a regular basis and this year we had rooms, on The Strip, for $40.00 per night with discounts on meals included.

As a personal aside, I allways thought that it was a mistake for the AMA to move to Muncie. The land was cheap but ****, Its MUNCIE!

Throw the contest someplace where folks can take the wife and kids, swim, see a few shows, relax, choose from a few good restaurants at night... You know, have a real vacation! Even Orlando, FL might work.

One of the things that has made VSC so popular is the LOCATION!

Lastly: While I feel no need to defend Windy, he did not add that Z-tron technology to his plane and then go right to top five in Nats competition! That guy has been 5th best at how many Nats? You count em! Yep, it's neat technology but he's still 5th best on fly-off day and probably will be untill someone else retires from the event.

Lastly, lastly: If we look at the records, the same handfull of competitors have won the top placings in our major contests for more than a decade. I'll bet that if we set up a "Money Contest" the same bunch of experts would show up and win anyway. Why? Because theyre the BEST at what we do.

OK, so lets do it!

Thanks for the soap box,

Bigs

PS:

Please don't think that my comments about "same planes, same rules..." is negating your TOC wide open event concept. I just don't think that that's necessary to have a SLAMIN Contest! I'd just start with something that can be done quickily and easily NOW and let it grow!

Doug,

An almost ideal situation would be to have it in Tucson the week before the VSC. The downside is that all the Tucson volunteer folks are stretched pretty thin during this time.

But.. You would already have a controline crowd there.

Reno, Laughlin, or Vegas are good possibilities also if you could catch them in the off season when they needed a event to draw
a crowd.

Don't let the naysayers drag you down. Give it a shot!

>Doug,
>
>An almost ideal situation would be to have it in Tucson the
>week before the VSC. The downside is that all the Tucson
>volunteer folks are stretched pretty thin during this time.
>
>But.. You would already have a controline crowd there.
>
>Reno, Laughlin, or Vegas are good possibilities also if you
>could catch them in the off season when they needed a event
>to draw
>a crowd.
>
>Don't let the naysayers drag you down. Give it a shot!

Having it west of the Rockies would be so cool because I happen to live in CALIFORNIA!! The question is, what other "draw" could you initiate in conjunction with the contest to entice the troops.
Having a ready made set-up like the VSC would be neat because the VSC is a highly successful "specialty" meet already.
Quite possibly, piggybacking off of an existing meet like the VSC would be the way to go initially.
Folks who wanted to fly classic could do that and the folks who wanted fly the TOC money meet with champagne being poured over the winner and pretty girls kissing you and holding up the big check could do that. (Sorry about that daydreaming).

Bigs,

The Bladder Grabber was the first of the money meets, although we began with high-zoot stereo gear and in the main this continues to this day.

As the Grabber was begun right in my backyard, I was involved. Even named the contest, although that shouldn't surprise anyone.

We had a friend who was actively flying Combat, he wanted to see a meet that would draw some serious folk, had, and still has, the resources to put up serious prizes.

This same friend is reputed to have blurted out the words "Bladder Grabber" in a work enviroment only to have entire rooms full of people adopt questioning looks.

This contest has been taking place every year for more than 20 years.

As far as I know there has never been a problem created by the fact that quite expensive and desirable prizes are featured at all Bladder Grabbers.

Finally, no explanations will be given as to how the name of this contest was formulated. People either get it, and most don't, or they never will no matter how much time I spend on the issue.

If you're going to toss out the BOM

Why not cop an idea from some of the Olympic sailing classes (Lasers in particular): The TOC contest organizers provide the airplanes. Perhaps all the same box stock ARFs with box stock engines. We certainly now have ARFs capable enough, don't we?

Just a thought.

>If you're going to toss out the BOM
>
>Why not cop an idea from some of the Olympic sailing classes
>(Lasers in particular): The TOC contest organizers provide
>the airplanes. Perhaps all the same box stock ARFs with box
>stock engines. We certainly now have ARFs capable enough,
>don't we?
>
>Just a thought.

This sounds like IROC and that can be done, too. that is not TOC stuff, though. I don't think, BOM or no, we are going to see any of the top flyers wanting to set aside their own equipment in favor of any ARF. Bottom line, the ARF is still going to be inferior. And even if you built an SV11 ARF or whatever, the engine set-ups are different from individual to individual and you are not going to see the best flyer's best efforts if it doesn't fly the way he is used to.

Keep it simple and let the flyer furnish his own plane, but keep the rules the same as for "normal" stunt flying. No one wants to build a plane or power it with an engine that can be used for this event only. And that goes in spades if you are thinking of a larger plane with longer lines than what fit on the normal circles.