Why is it?

LAST EDITED ON Jun-10-04 AT 08:17 AM (CDT)
 
Why is it that the biggest controline contest on the planet is in a guy's backyard, and the second largest is in the middle of the desert?

Is anyone else curious as to why the U.S. Nationals do not outdraw either Brodak or VSC? The Nats should be the largest in the Country...what could be done to expand the attendance?

Certainly the remoteness of the site hampers a bit, but I believe that Carmichaels, PA, and Tucson, AZ are equally remote.....however, the site at Muncie is far superior to any venue around, offering plenty of practice areas, plenty of reasonably priced accommodations and generally favorable weather conditions.

See Ya

I think VSC has the calendar and weather going for it. It is a nice break for a lot of people from the harsh winters of the North and the time they have not had to go flying. I think there is also the competitiveness of the Nats to overcome. When people otherwise flying expert go down to Advanced because they are afraid they cannot place in Expert, then the true Advanced flyer no longer has a chance. We need to realize it is not always about winning, but doing our best and seeing where we really place in among the best of the best.

As to Brodak's, I have never been there. What is the attendance of control line flyers in Advanced and Expert as compared to the Nats? How about Intermediate and Beginner? Is there again the perception that competition is not as intense? I have a feeling that there are fewer participants there moving down a notch in an effort to garner trophies. ("Hey look, instead of placing in the top 10 in Expert, I won Advanced." It doesn't impress me.)

Rich,

Good question! Might just be the "fun" factor. I've not attended Brodak's fly-in but from all I've heard about it, it is mostly about fun. The VSC is certainly serious for some but for most it is just a fun contest and they don't care where they place. At the VSC the serious contenders don't seem to be under the pressure that is evident at the NATs and are also there mostly for the fun and the experience.

The NATS has a whole different feel. Intermediates and beginners are not given "center stage" because they don't fly where all the best are practicing for the main event. At the VSC and Brodak all entrants are welcome on all practice circles and all fly on the same "stage". Also the serious contenders don't have the same attitude as they do at VSC. They are, after all, trying to win the National Championship. That requires a very concentrated and focused effort in order for them to perform at their best.

Speaking from my PA-I (mid level) point of view. The NATS has a very different "feel" and it isn't the same as the VSC. I attended the NATS last year and am glad I did so but I probably won't go back because of this difference. This is a hobby for the vast majority and only serious for about 50 or so guys. So the "fun factor" is important. I don't go to the VSC with any hope of placing in the top 10 but even if I don't fly at all (I didn't this past year) I have a really good time.

This brings to mind another question. Is it important that the NATS have the number of contestants that some other contests have? This is after all a contest to determine the best of the best. A guy who normally places 2nd or 3rd at Podunk, TX is probably not going to pay the entry fee and incur the expense involved in going to the NATS. But he will go to the VSC or Brodak's because the focus is different.

Just my two cents.

>>what could be done to expand the attendance?<<

Hmm, nothing for me. Unless you can move Muncie closer to the west coast. 2500 miles one way is a bit much.

The "high pressure" contest here is the Northwest Regionals. Usually I'm pretty nervous at this contest, but not this year. Seemed more relaxed for some reason. Probably because Carl Shoup came.

23 experts, 17 Advanced certainly made for a busy contest. I'm so glad that Intermediate and Beginner were held on Saturday or we would have been there till midnight.

john i think you nailed it down pretty good i would like to attend the nats some year but brodak is so much fun are you going to make it there this year. and vsc was a trip back in time. so many palnes so many nice people all wiiling to help out.

Thanks Brad,

We all have our own reasons for being in this mess and I don't feel it is appropriate to denigrate those who wish to take it to the highest level. Everyone does it for their own reasons,level of satisfaction and enjoyment. Heck, if we didn't like it we would take up some other spare time activity. The NATS are for the best and it should be. BUT,you aren't going to get a bunch of Sport Flyers to enter.

Brodak? Would love to attend but just not possible due to distance and expense. Maybe some day.

While reading all the "hoopla,"on topic #11220, Dirty Dan referenced this thread...and saw your comments...don't you think??? In reference to topic #11220...proof of my theory on TOO MUCH GLUE! Haven't got my Nov/Dec issue yet...when I do, maybe I'll be better informed...until then; I'll stick to the glue theory

Agree, John nailed it. Just wished I was able to go, Brodaks is everything a contest should be.

>Rich,
>
>Good question! Might just be the "fun" factor. I've not
>attended Brodak's fly-in but from all I've heard about it,
>it is mostly about fun. The VSC is certainly serious for
>some but for most it is just a fun contest and they don't
>care where they place. At the VSC the serious contenders
>don't seem to be under the pressure that is evident at the
>NATs and are also there mostly for the fun and the
>experience.
>
>The NATS has a whole different feel. Intermediates and
>beginners are not given "center stage" because they don't
>fly where all the best are practicing for the main event. At
>the VSC and Brodak all entrants are welcome on all practice
>circles and all fly on the same "stage". Also the serious
>contenders don't have the same attitude as they do at VSC.
>They are, after all, trying to win the National
>Championship. That requires a very concentrated and focused
>effort in order for them to perform at their best.
>
>Speaking from my PA-I (mid level) point of view. The NATS
>has a very different "feel" and it isn't the same as the
>VSC. I attended the NATS last year and am glad I did so but
>I probably won't go back because of this difference. This
>is a hobby for the vast majority and only serious for about
>50 or so guys. So the "fun factor" is important. I don't go
>to the VSC with any hope of placing in the top 10 but even
>if I don't fly at all (I didn't this past year) I have a
>really good time.
>
>This brings to mind another question. Is it important that
>the NATS have the number of contestants that some other
>contests have? This is after all a contest to determine the
>best of the best. A guy who normally places 2nd or 3rd at
>Podunk, TX is probably not going to pay the entry fee and
>incur the expense involved in going to the NATS. But he will
>go to the VSC or Brodak's because the focus is different.
>
>Just my two cents.
>
>Later, John

John, I couldn't have said it any better. Will not be flying intermediate at the Nats anymore. Also will not be flying stunt other than Classic and/or Old Time. I guess I am not serious enough. Yours the ole doctor.....DOC

LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-04 AT 02:44 PM (CST)
 
That is what I enter WHEN I go to the nats. OT and Classic. I usually also enter Advanced as it is a more fun event at the nats.
My reasoning about this WHOLE hobby is that it is SUPPOSED to be fun. When the fun goes out of it, the event goes. Look at Fast Combat got too fast,complicated and expensive no fun in all the carnage now you are lucky if you find a contest where you can fill an eight man pyramid. Rat and slo rat same thing. EVEN MOUSE RACE!! used to be fun now with the super power 1/2 A non reeds and the home built reedies not so much fun.
Stunt will go the same route if it gets where the fun is gone. And we cannot get new blood into the veins from the sport flying ranks.

Bigiron

This whole thread is just a bunch of blather!!!

> That is what I enter WHEN I go to the nats. OT and
>Classic. I usually also enter Advanced as it is a more fun
>event at the nats.
> My reasoning about this WHOLE hobby is that it is SUPPOSED
>to be fun. When the fun goes out of it, the event goes.
>Look at Fast Combat got too fast,complicated and expensive
>no fun in all the carnage now you are lucky if you find a
>contest where you can fill an eight man pyramid. Rat and
>slo rat same thing. EVEN MOUSE RACE!! used to be fun now
>with the super power 1/2 A non reeds and the home built
>reedies not so much fun.
> Stunt will go the same route if it gets where the fun is
>gone. And we cannot get new blood into the veins from the
>sport flying ranks.
>
> A thought:
{No disrespect or meaness intended, but please let me know who misinformed you as to when the "Fun" is gone so is stunt??????
I had no idea that the sport flying "ranks" were providing the qoute upper/higher "ranks" new blood!!In the same vein as "minor" and/or major leagues???..This hobby is not "suppose" to be anything other than what you make of it!!!There are no shoulds or suppose too's regarding the concept of "fun"...Thanks David..

LAST EDITED ON Nov-11-04 AT 07:16 PM (CST)
 
David, would you stay and fly the event (stunt) if it was not fun for you?? I doubt it. you would find something that was enjoyable.

I doubt that ANY one would keep doing something that was not fun.
Correct me if I am wrong. Or perhaps you are in it for the money, or girls or glory. (G)

Bigiron

> David, would you stay and fly the event (stunt) if it was
>not fun for you?? I doubt it. you would find something that
>was enjoyable.
>
> I doubt that ANY one would keep doing something that was
>not fun.
> Correct me if I am wrong. Or perhaps you are in it for
>the money, or girls or glory. (G)
>
> Bigiron

Bigiron,
If the only aspect was "fun" as to why I was in this event, then yes I probably would get out...However, I have come to understand this event to some degree over the years, and the most important piece is that I have come to understand my response to this event/stunt..This event challenges me in so many ways, my creative & artistic traits, my personal relationship with competition, developing friendships/interpersonal skill level, my need for self-expression,
my response to frustration and self-imposed failure, I think what I am stating Bigs is that I have come or matured to a point where I am able to experience fun along with all the other characteristics of this event..Which at times are difficult..So I u

That is my point David. IT IS FUN for you. If it wasn't, you or anyone else would quit. I myself enjoy competition at the OT and Classic level. I wish to win there just as you wish to win at the PAMPA events. To me, to get to a winning level of PAMPA expert would take too muck work, effort, and money for it to be enjoyable to me. For others such as you, I say go for it!!! But because I choose to stay at the level of lesser pressure doesn't mean that I am a lessor person. My views are as important as yours. Don't you think?

Bigiron

> That is my point David. IT IS FUN for you. If it wasn't,
>you or anyone else would quit. I myself enjoy competition
>at the OT and Classic level. I wish to win there just as
>you wish to win at the PAMPA events. To me, to get to a
>winning level of PAMPA expert would take too muck work,
>effort, and money for it to be enjoyable to me. For others
>such as you, I say go for it!!! But because I choose to stay
>at the level of lesser pressure doesn't mean that I am a
>lessor person. My views are as important as yours. Don't
>you think?
>
> Bigiron

strat56

> That is my point David. IT IS FUN for you. If it wasn't,
>you or anyone else would quit. I myself enjoy competition
>at the OT and Classic level. I wish to win there just as
>you wish to win at the PAMPA events. To me, to get to a
>winning level of PAMPA expert would take too muck work,
>effort, and money for it to be enjoyable to me. For others
>such as you, I say go for it!!! But because I choose to stay
>at the level of lesser pressure doesn't mean that I am a
>lessor person. My views are as important as yours. Don't
>you think?
>
> Bigiron

Bigs. Absolutely,,I hope that you are received as such..I also understand the work aspect too...It is work, and because it is work, at times the fun part is hard to get in touch with....--Maybe the word fun needs to be removed altogther..This event is so much more than fun, at whatever level you engage it....The expectation that it is suppose to be fun is part of the problem, I believe..If it is not fun, then what?--It does not seem realistic, or the expectation might be need to be looked at. I recall seeing Jimmy Casale after the Chicopee Nats, he looked tired, beat and void of any qoute "fun"..I remember him stating to me: "I am done" My question is:" should he have been feeling fun"? He just competed at the Nats, we all know the side-effects of that experience..I need to always be broaden my "horizons"-Try not to put all the eggs" in the fun basket, because if I do, well the outcome will be knee-jerk..Thanks David..

Hi Rich,

>Why is it that the biggest controline contest on the planet
>is in a guy's backyard, and the second largest is in the
>middle of the desert?

Never been to VSC, but hope to soon!
As to Brodak's.... I love going to a nice clean party at a great family's house! And that's just what it is.

>
>Is anyone else curious as to why the U.S. Nationals do not
>outdraw either Brodak or VSC? The Nats should be the
>largest in the Country...what could be done to expand the
>attendance?

I do not believe the NATS *should* out draw either of the others.
Our National Champions are selected there, it doesn't need to have *field fillers*. Everyone should try it at least once, it is a great flying experience, but the atmosphere is SOOOOO totally different that flying there is no where near as enjoyable.

>
>Certainly the remoteness of the site hampers a bit, but I
>believe that Carmichaels, PA, and Tucson, AZ are equally
>remote.....however, the site at Muncie is far superior to
>any venue around, offering plenty of practice areas, plenty
>of reasonably priced accommodations and generally favorable
>weather conditions.

I don't believe that location really matters to those that are out for the Top 5 (or 20) positions, or flying for the Championship in Jr., Sr., Adv., Int., Beg., and others will go as they can. Our last Nats trip saw us on site for 7 days. That isn't counting travel. It would be the same if the Nats were held only 4 hours away from me. A lot of time on site.
True, the site is the best, but the atmosphere is just not as enjoyable for many.
IMHO, there are a lot more *contest* fliers out there that do not want (or need) to be as intense as the Nats requires. There are many pilots that get all the competition they need, at least for now, at local meets and enjoy the hobby just as much. We all have our own desires as to what we want from this hobby. And that's as it should be.

>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

Later dude,
Bill <><

After three VSC meets and three Brodak Fly Ins, and one NATS, John Ashford got it right. The Nats is high pressure, the other two are very laid back, relatively speaking. The competition is there, but many more smiles and helping hands from every where. Very few really care if they win, just fly the oldies and have fun. Nats, everyone is up tight and outa sight!!!

The success of the Brodak event is quite impressive due, I believe, to the variety of events, participation and conveniences offered. The low-key nature contributes to the appeal.

Four days of pure model aviation fun in six circles, busy from dawn to dusk.

He offers PAMPA, Classic, Old Time, Profile and ARF stunt, all with four skill classes.

There is also combat, Foxberg, clown racing, and various scale events. There are special ladies and novice events.

A huge buffet picnic on Saturday.

A few “non-normal” events: Junk yard wars and mass-fly.

All sorts of odd demos: The mega-streak, music, ceremonials, night flying.

A complete hobby shop five minutes away.

Hot food and cold drinks available on site throughout the day.

Souvenir clothing, hats, pins, etc. available on site.

All the people working the event are friendly, helpful and doing everything to make the participants feel “at home”.

The entry fees are unbelievably reasonable.

How many people will enter? So far, 113 in PAMPA, 52 in OTS, 82 in classic, 79 in profile and 40 in ARF. And, entries are still coming in.

The Brodak Fly-In is truly a tough act to follow – and, it keeps growing. I’ve met people who came from all over the U.S. as well as from Japan, Canada, South Africa and Europe.

Buzz and John must be doing something right to have this continued success. AND, it’s all in their backyard!

Most who have experienced it keep coming back – those who show up for the first time will not be disappointed.

Bob Z

LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-04 AT 02:05 PM (CDT)
 
Sounds a lot like a contest hosted twice a year by Maxey Hester and Hazel Sig. Officiated by Mike Gretz and Mike Pratt it is held once for control line events and another weekend for R/C events with the emphasis on fun, competition and multiple events. It is held on the Sig/Hester airport with a 200x 2500 foot grass strip as the flying field, as for C/L it holds many circles for competition and practice.

The couple of times I attended there was;
Combat of a bunch of types,
Carrier of all classes including SkyRay Carrier ( a well known Sig model, in case you thought it was a new Brodak offering),
SkyRay Racing,
Ladies events,
Stunt of all events, including a then all Sig stunt design event called Sig Classic (for 35 Sig designs),
Scale,
an Airshow,
I don't remember a orange crate derby, but some SkyRay racing was very similar!,
Other events I may have forgotten.

Along with this it is held by some very nice people, and a party was hosted by the family that put the contest on, the Hester's. During the party, all contestants kibitzed and had a good time swapping model airplane stories.

In addition to this, every one is invited to tours of the host's manufacturing facility, and hobby shop to buy wood and fuel and everything else available at huge dicounts, all in addition to the awards which, when I won Advanced way back then, included a nice trophy, a Magnum kit, a gallon of fuel, a bunch of 10 dollar off coupons for mail order, etc.

This was 15 years ago, and I was told the contest was ongoing for some time before this, so maybe the Mikes can tell us exactly how long, but for sure 25 plus years. How wonderful that a big control line manufacture like Sig and it's owners can contribute to the hobby with there generosity in putting on a big fun event for all these years.

All the fun I had sounds similar to the winning formula Brodak seems to have put together. Sounds like, in fact he may have been there once, or heard about it, and decided to try it himself.

It's nice to have contests like these.

Chris...

>Sounds a lot like a contest hosted twice a year by Maxey
>Hester and Hazel Sig. Officiated by Mike Gretz and Mike
>Pratt it is held once for control line events and another
>weekend for R/C events with the emphasis on fun, competition
>and multiple events. It is held on the Sig/Hester airport
>with a 200x 2500 foot grass strip as the flying field, as
>for C/L it holds many circles for competition and practice.
>
>The couple of times I attended there was;
> Combat of a bunch of types,
> Carrier of all classes including SkyRay Carrier ( a well
>known Sig model, in case you thought it was a new Brodak
>offering),
>SkyRay Racing,
>Ladies events,
>Stunt of all events, including a then all Sig stunt design
>event called Sig Classic (for 35 Sig designs),
>Scale,
>an Airshow,
>I don't remember a orange crate derby, but some SkyRay
>racing was very similar!,
>Other events I may have forgotten.
>
>Along with this it is held by some very nice people, and a
>party was hosted by the family that put the contest on, the
>Hester's. During the party, all contestants kibitzed and had
>a good time swapping model airplane stories.
>
>In addition to this, every one is invited to tours of the
>host's manufacturing facility, and hobby shop to buy wood
>and fuel and everything else available at huge dicounts, all
>in addition to the awards which, when I won Advanced way
>back then, included a nice trophy, a Magnum kit, a gallon of
>fuel, a bunch of 10 dollar off coupons for mail order, etc.
>
>This was 15 years ago, and I was told the contest was
>ongoing for some time before this, so maybe the Mikes can
>tell us exactly how long, but for sure 25 plus years. How
>wonderful that a big control line manufacture like Sig and
>it's owners can contribute to the hobby with there
>generosity in putting on a big fun event for all these
>years.
>
>All the fun I had sounds similar to the winning formula
>Brodak seems to have put together. Sounds like, in fact he
>may have been there once, or heard about it, and decided to
>try it himself.
>
>It's nice to have contests like these.
>
>Chris...

Chris, when was the last time you attended a Sig C/L contest? Under the new owners it is a different ballgame. --DOC

Based on all the replies, it seems evident that the Nats will never out people the VSC or Brodaks Fly In. That simple. It would be nice if the Nats could be held in four or five regions with one year at Muncie. It is doable and should be done at least twice to see how it works. There are lots of abandoned Naval Air Stations or low manning where the Nats used to be held and those sites could be used again. Plus USMC and USAF fields. However, the weekend reservists are no longer available for manpower, so a huge part of the work will have to be done by AMA members. Not the HQ people, US. We'uns. Us guys. I'd gladly volunteer some of my time for a regional Nats in the SE.

BUT, remember this, the Nats is mainly for those that go to win, or at least feel they have a shot at the top three places in any given event. At VSC and Brodaks, that is simply not the case. High School football and the AFC/NFC=big difference.

Using military bases is out of the question now since 911. Ask Bob Zambelli. Security is tight and no base commander will open up for a model airplane contest.

Many people who attended the Brodak Fly-in can easily answer the "Why is it" question.
One of my own answers is the question: "What more could you ask for in a C/L event?"
It's simply the best.
Bob Z.

>Why is it that the biggest controline contest on the planet
>is in a guy's backyard, and the second largest is in the
>middle of the desert?
>
>Is anyone else curious as to why the U.S. Nationals do not
>outdraw either Brodak or VSC? The Nats should be the
>largest in the Country...what could be done to expand the
>attendance?

No, it probably shouldn't. It's the contest to choose a national champion - not to hand out the maximum number of trophies to the maximum number of people, or to give a trophy to the 85th best flier. That's just not the purpose. High-level competition is never going to appeal to as many people as the laid-back casual atmosphere that you get at VSC (I don't know anything about Brodaks). There's a place for both types of events, and I just don't see the extraordinary need to keep trying to break working systems in the name of "more people" at one contest.

Qauntity is not equal to quality and bigger is not necessarily better- and if you don't think so, go to a local R/C site on a Saturday morning. In short, I don't buy the basic premise.

>>Is anyone else curious as to why the U.S. Nationals do not
>>outdraw either Brodak or VSC? The Nats should be the
>>largest in the Country...what could be done to expand the
>>attendance?
>
> No, it probably shouldn't. It's the contest to choose a
>national champion - not to hand out the maximum number of
>trophies to the maximum number of people, or to give a
>trophy to the 85th best flier. That's just not the purpose.

I actually agree with Brett here.

The Nationals could really be for about 10 guys. The rest of us are just fodder really...

CLPA might actually be better served if, as Brett says, we stop concerning ourselves with the Nationals and its attendance.

Maybe our efforts would be better served, as was discussed in another thread, in creating a new contest that would travel the country and have more mass appeal. I think John proved that it is really not that hard to create a popular and prestiguous contest. I know if there were alternatives to the Nats that were a little closer to home, I would certainly consider replacing my Nats attendance for some other contest.

Personally, I go to the Nats to learn, see my friends, and fly for good judges. I think that a large contest (such as Brodak's for example) certainly could provide all of these factors for me in spades.

The only other thing is that the Nats is simply too long as a contest goes. Most guys my age have jobs, wives, and kids. Taking off from work for a week plus every year can be very difficult if not impossible in today's tight job market (I currently have ZERO vacation days). I think a contest held over a long weekend would be much more feasible for the regular folks who are not retired or airline pilots, attendants, etc and who have large amounts of time off from work.

>
>Maybe our efforts would be better served, as was discussed
>in another thread, in creating a new contest that would
>travel the country and have more mass appeal. I think John
>proved that it is really not that hard to create a popular
>and prestiguous contest. I know if there were alternatives
>to the Nats that were a little closer to home, I would
>certainly consider replacing my Nats attendance for some
>other contest.
>
>While I will certainly attend the Nats at some point, the 5000 mile round trip is a bit too much for me for regular attendance. A while back, I asked Shareen Fancher-perennial Pampa Secretary, why didn't they put the Nats permanently in the middle of the country. She gave a really good answer. Most of the past Nats held in those places had either poor conditions and or poor accomodations.
What has really got my blood going is Doug's TOC thing held, hopefully somewhere west of the rockies.

My suggestion, so as not to monopolize Leonard's forum is too create a separate forum like Bob Zambelli did for 4 strokes ( which was quite helpful by the way),for the purpose of discussing a new contest. We could freely exchange ideas without fear of negative repercussion and exchange large files,large pictures and even big cad files for proposed ships. The nice thing about that is, the people contributing to that forum would all be on board for something new.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-04 AT 11:31 AM (CDT)
 
Bradley, you might check with Bob's brother (US Air Captain) about the airline pilot's amount of spare time. Or me. It ain't what it used to be. Matter of fact, it never was! Bitter Old Man

I thought the main purpose of the VSC and Brodak was to have a swap meet. Silly me!

Actually very litle swapping, but several great vendors show up.
I always come home with "another great kit I just gotta have" and now how do I get it in the car? Thank you God for a very understanding and long suffering wife. She gets her revenge, though, I have to go to "chick flicks" with her. Someone has to carry and extra hankie.

Ty,

Please tell me you don't go to "chick movies"???

No kit is worth having to see "Fried Green Tomatoes"

LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-04 AT 04:37 PM (CDT)
 
Don't tell anyone, but I had to see it twice. I did laugh when the sheriff from Georgia was eating barbeque ribs and didn't know it was the man he was looking for. I get a kick out of Cathy Bates and my wife is often mistaken for her. She hears that at least once a week, but I think she is actually better looking.

OK. I'll have to fess up too. I saw that on one of the premium channels and the wife wasn't even around.

How about Attack Of The Killer Tomatoes ?
This flick has no equal.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-23-04 AT 04:24 PM (CDT)
 
Think about this, how many fliers live within a two hundred miles of Muncie and how many live within two hundred miles of Carmichels Penn? How many events are taking place over the same periods of time? As far a pressure packed and a lower fun factor event, the Nats can be as fun as you make it. Ask anyone who attended the 2000 Nats, and saw all my stuggles that year. I,without a doubt, had more fun than anybody. All the help that was offered to me, by people I had never met in my life, has gone a long way in my enjoyment of this hobby. The two years I have attended the Nats have been more fun than I could have imagined. I only hope that as I get better, and more competitive, I dont forget to have fun.

The reason that I posed the question is that I remember wandering to Glen View, where there seemed to be lots of folks enjoying theirselves, and I continually hear from old critters how much fun the "Navy Nats" or the "Mirror Meet" was, and how many flyers there were.....

I happen to believe that the Nats should be a celebration of the hobby, NOT a coronation.....sure, we find a National Champ, but it should be far, far more than that. Otherwise "Zilla is right, and that's a shame.

See Ya

>The reason that I posed the question is that I remember
>wandering to Glen View, where there seemed to be lots of
>folks enjoying theirselves, and I continually hear from old
>critters how much fun the "Navy Nats" or the "Mirror Meet"
>was, and how many flyers there were.....
>
>I happen to believe that the Nats should be a celebration of
>the hobby, NOT a coronation.....sure, we find a National
>Champ, but it should be far, far more than that. Otherwise
>"Zilla is right, and that's a shame.
>
>See Ya
>
>Peabody

Godzilla is right. And it is hardly a shame.

A "celebration of the hobby"? How amusing. Especially in a place like Muncie.

But your worst gaff is in referring to the Nationals as a coronation. Could you possibly be any more belittling to the very best CL Stunt fliers on the planet?

Look, people like me have watched people like you introduce to the Nationals scene things like Advanced, Intermediate and Beginner classes of competition. At a contest which traditionally is for the National Champion in CL Stunt, by definition the best of the best, not the best of the rest.

I believe this is the first time I have said anything about it, if y'all are having fun, that's great. Continue with my blessing, even if the sideshow turns into whatever a celebration of the hobby might devolve into being.

But when I think of the Nationals I think of a knife fight to be the single best guy in CL Stunt. And when I read about it, all I care to know is who won Open, who won the Walker Cup, as many details as possible about their equipment, stories about challenges met and overcome.

Just as when I watch a Formula 1 or MotoGP race, I want to see a single individual at his very best. Sure, I'll watch an F3 race once in awhile. I'll tape and view at my leisure 250GP races, even the tiddlers sometimes.

In fact, maybe the above example provides a hint of a compromise in our two points of view. Formula 1 races have support races, although I rarely see them. And while *all** the serious attention is given to the top two or three teams at a given race, working toward a single winner of the most prestigious motor sport in the world, there are lots and lots of sideshow attractions at each venue. And I'm not just talking about the women...

When the race is over and done the sideshows close up shop until the next race. And nobody, **nobody** is so stupid as to think the winner of any F1 race has been coronated. Too demeaning, don't you know...

No one's mentioned the SIG contest. I don't know how big it is compared to Brodak's, but it's been going on for a great long while, and usually draws a pretty good crowd from the surrounding area. It's run along more or less the same lines - lots of "fun" contests. I've been to about three of them. SIG gives tours of the factories, and everyone goes away with some sort of prize.

I wrote a comment about it right below Ferrari Vee Twelves report of all the events at Brodaks.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-04 AT 01:53 AM (CDT)
 
So you did, I missed it. Yup, it's really an enjoyable contest.

Incidentally, that town to the south of Montezuma (forget what it's called) is the best bet as far as finding a hotel room. The town to the north on the Interstate has little in the way of accomodation, the town to the north and west on the Interstate has some, but it's more of a drive. It does have a unique ice bin at the Wal-Mart, though - "Messerschmitt Ice"!

My most prized trophy I earned at the SIG contest - the base is an actual distributor cap from a B-29! Mike Gretz got his hands on a bunch of these and made trophies out of them. I'll take a picture someday and post it. Can't remember if that was the year I had to beat Bob Burch to win a trophy.

Incidentally, doesn't Ferrari run V-10s these days?

LAST EDITED ON Jun-24-04 AT 00:31 AM (CDT)
 
In response to Dan's post;

Beautiful man. I couldn't have been more confused when we started Advanced at the Nats.
Chris...

The original post asked a couple of questions which I can answer quite easily..

1. Our AMA has no control over C/L contest planning, except to deny a sanction if any particular contest is held on the same day and within a predetermined radius of another sanctioned contest of the same type.

2. Some of us on the Left Coast are unable to travel to Muncie or to Carmichaels PA for a C/L contest. I am only able to manage the long trip to Tucson, which I have done for 15 of the 16 VSC meets.

3. The fact that the Brodak and the VSC attract more C/L contestants than the Nats is simply one of access. Historically, the most C/L activity has been in the NE and on the West Coast. Muncie is simply too far from the center of C/L activity on both coasts.

I quite understand the need for a National site, because the US Navy pulled out of the Nats, and the AMA cannot afford to rent the rotating sites as was done in the past.

I have participated in 3 Nats in the past. This was only because the Nats happened to be held fairly close to my home. It is certain that I will never be able to attend another Nats, nor attend the Brodak.

I have not had time to read all the previous posts. Perhaps someone has already explained exactly what I am saying.

>In response to Dan's post;
>
>Beautiful man. I couldn't have been more confused when we
>started Advanced at the Nats.
>Chris...

Chris,

A lot of us were confused, perplexed and weirded out.

Not many will be saying so in public, however.

The reason I finally said something here, following years of mere mutterings amongst friends locally, is that we really do need to keep firmly in mind the purpose of our National Championship contest, that of any national championship in any form of competition: Pick a single winner from the best of the best.

I don't mind support classes, am not railing against them, especially as the existence of them seems to please so many people.

But when I read of there needing to be so much more to it than a mere "coronation," my senses jump to full alert, because such a statement, from someone like Peabody, indicates at least some desire to turn the whole thing into a circus where we have crap like the National Championship in Bi-Slob Stunt. Trophies through 12 places in Junior, Senior, Open, Beginner B-S S, Intermediate B-S S, Advanced B-S S. "Y'all come, we'll have a great time, especially as you don't even have to be very good at Bi-Slob Stunt."

Gosh, I almost forgot, assuming things continue to progress in the direction I see them as at least desired by some, we'll get to add ARF Bi-Slob Stunt to the mix, neatly doubling the trophy count.

I have tremendous respect for those skilled enough, driven enough to make the Top Twenty each year. Especially as I am fortunate enough to live in an area where one of the most successful (PW, of course) CL Stunt artists in the history of our hobby lives, and so I get to see the level of effort and dedication required on a fairly regular basis.

There is no desire on my part to dilute our National Championship contest into something resembling a picnic in a park, lots of glad-handing and old stories being told yet again, a little flying off to the side.

Such an event might very well be a lot of fun. I would enjoy it tremendously, especially as I have more old stories than most.

Just don't reduce the stature of one dedicated guy each year fighting for and winning our top award.

Again Dan,
I can't even respond without diluting your logic. Bi-Slob Stunt Champion. Very Funny.
Chris...

>The reason that I posed the question is that I remember
>wandering to Glen View, where there seemed to be lots of
>folks enjoying theirselves, and I continually hear from old
>critters how much fun the "Navy Nats" or the "Mirror Meet"
>was, and how many flyers there were.....
>
>I happen to believe that the Nats should be a celebration of
>the hobby, NOT a coronation.....sure, we find a National
>Champ, but it should be far, far more than that.

Your error, and it's made similarly in many areas of debate, it to assume that "draw" is the figure of merit. I subit that this is an incorrect criterion. In this case, the correct figure of merit to use is how accurately and fairly we choose a National Champion. Among serious competition flier who regularly attend, there is absolutely no doubt that the format, administration, judging, and level of competition are combined in such a way to accomplish this task not just well, but *BRILLIANTLY* by Warren, Shareen, Gary, and all those who contribute (yourself included).

The fact the NATs process is far more accurate and fair than any contest I know of has in fact contributed to it's excellent and increasing turnout, even despite it being 3 hard days drive from the West Coast (where local contests can draw very similar numbers to the NATs). By being located in Muncie and now being effectively impossible to fly there, for all intents and purposes, you lose half your potential draw for a National contests because it's too difficult to get there.

Laid-back affairs like VSC draw more, because hard-core competition has always held less appeal than fun-flies. Even in the good old days, only a fraction attended. There were a lot more people at the NATs then because there was FAR FAR more C/L activity overall. I would bet that the % of NATS contestants to sport fliers in the 50's was actually lower than it is now.

I might also add that if you want to pine for the good old days, and then reproduce them, better delete skill classes and multi-round qualifying, since neither of those things existed before ~1990 and ~1977 respectively. And for that matter, a set flying order or experienced judges.

Of course, the same error - equating headcount with success - was made in droves in PAMPA for the last few years, even once you filter out the wildly erroneous and hyperbolic rhetoric on PAMPA membership numbers.

>Otherwise
>"Zilla is right, and that's a shame.

I sadly resign myself to the idea that you are entitled to your own opinion.

Fortunately, so am I. I think the NATs is serving it's purpose d*mn near perfectly right now, and none of your NATs proposals seem to be directed towards improving any of the minor weak points that remain.

Aren't we really talking about an attitude of exclusion or inclusion. Many of the top 20 (or 40) I met think it positive to build in popularity via making the event fun and inclusive of the lesser skilled. Does an audience distract from the artistic merit of a performance? Why? Building and supporting the skill classes at the Nats as well as local contests increases audience, an audience that has gained knowledge through participation. Where's the debate? If someone travels 650 miles to Muncie (as I will) I guess I have to squeeze my beginner flying into the Sunday before the main events and hang through the week to watch and help. Those participants won't even be practicing until a day later, a day after the perfunctory beginner's event. Which is fine by me, but hardly friendly to the new blood and the new old blood. Those who aspire to be the pointy point on top a pyramid, well, your monument rises higher when...

love,
Dennis

I hope to attend both Brodak and the Nats someday. This year was not in the cards. The focus on each event is different in my planning and the preparation would also be different. At Brodak I plan to enter many events and to learn from many different people and experiences. At the NATS, I would be specifically prepared with one plane to compete to the best level I possible can, removing all extraneous distractions, and errors and intensely focus on the task at hand: "to fly the best pattern in my life." That is the difference and to some that level of concentration, dedication and perseverance is not fun. That's OK.

I am glad we have the variety of events in which we can choose to participate.

Bob Smiley

---------------Big Snip------------------------------
> Laid-back affairs like VSC draw more, because hard-core
>competition has always held less appeal than fun-flies. >

---------------End of Snip--------------------------------
Brett, I've watched the Experts practice flying their Classic airplanes at every VSC. For them, it is Not a fun fly.

------------------Another Snip------------------------

> Of course, the same error - equating headcount with
>success - was made in droves in PAMPA for the last few
>years, even once you filter out the wildly erroneous and
>hyperbolic rhetoric on PAMPA membership numbers.

----------------- End of Snip-----------------------------

The reason Controline has declined is due to the lack of participants. Getting more people to fly Controline can only help us all. More flyers means more flying sites, if they are willing to work with the various powers that be in the city and county governments
to obtain said sites. I notice the soccer folks have no trouble getting playing fields. That is due to large numbers of soccer players.

>---------------Big Snip------------------------------
>> Laid-back affairs like VSC draw more, because hard-core
>>competition has always held less appeal than fun-flies. >
>
>---------------End of Snip--------------------------------
>Brett, I've watched the Experts practice flying their
>Classic airplanes at every VSC. For them, it is Not a fun
>fly.

Right, 3 or 4 guys treat it like a hard-core competition. Billy, Bob Hunt, Frank, and maybe RO. Almost everybody else goes because of the atmosphere. Note the widespread rejection of the notion of having a fly-off at VSC. It was probably 100:1 against because it flew in the face of the concept of the event for most people.

Of course, once they get there, they try to do their best, but that's NOTHING like a NATs or Team Trials.

I know because I know darn near everyone you could possibly be referring to and have talked to them about it.

>
>------------------Another Snip------------------------
>
>> Of course, the same error - equating headcount with
>>success - was made in droves in PAMPA for the last few
>>years, even once you filter out the wildly erroneous and
>>hyperbolic rhetoric on PAMPA membership numbers.
>
>----------------- End of Snip-----------------------------
>
>The reason Controline has declined is due to the lack of
>participants. Getting more people to fly Controline can only
>help us all. More flyers means more flying sites, if they
>are willing to work with the various powers that be in the
>city and county governments
>to obtain said sites. I notice the soccer folks have no
>trouble getting playing fields. That is due to large numbers
>of soccer players.

Right. But if you beleive there is anything in the world that will get C/L numbers to 1% of soccer numbers, you have a pretty wild imagination. If you quadruple the number of fliers you currently have, you still got NOTHING.

You aren't going to get local flying sites by out-numbering other users, because that's not remotely realistic. I would estimate that the various kid and adult soccer leagues have something like 10-15000 participants just in Santa Clara county. Destroying current modeling events in a vain attempt to accomplish this Quixotic quest would be tragic and irresponsible.

It's absurd to think this will be accomplished by trying to change the format of some obscure contest in the middle of a soybean field in the middle of nowhere that no one in the larger world even imagines exists.

This thread is about Rich's ideas about changing the NATs, There is no correlation whatsoever between the NATs format or execution and people getting local flying sites, aside from some delusional notion of turning the clock back to 1955.

Brett.

You do go on, don't you?

De,
I don't understand your comment. Sounds like the big picture numbers are right on in Brett's note. Go on? Going on is how we are going grow big numbers in Stunt because we get another flying field. It is not feasable to think this way De. We are so small. SMALL.
Chris...

>De,
>I don't understand your comment. Sounds like the big picture
>numbers are right on in Brett's note. Go on? Going on is how
>we are going grow big numbers in Stunt because we get
>another flying field. It is not feasable to think this way
>De. We are so small. SMALL.
>Chris...

Chris,

The term" Going on was a satirical reference to the way Brett took the statement I made that growing controline would help us get more flying fields. Brett's answer was that I was delusional to think that controline participation would reach the heights of the 1950's.

I didn't say that.

Go back and read my original statement and read Brett's response. I simply didn't make the statements that he published the rebuttal to.
He did go on and add to what I said.

De,
I gotcha. I am not belittling any ones efforts to get more fields and participation. I just thought Brett's report on the big picture numbers were probably close. I never considered you delusional.
Chris...

>It's absurd to think this will be accomplished by trying to
>change the format of some obscure contest in the middle of a
>soybean field in the middle of nowhere that no one in the
>larger world even imagines exists.
>
> Brett

Thanks Brett, another winner.
Can we Cut/Paste this quote each time it is appropriate?

Curt,
I suppose if you use it out of context like a modern TV news station would, you could real stir some stuff, what is your point?
Chris...

I counted them up, and as I recall there were 126 individual entrants in stunt at the 2002 NATS. This is almost esactly (+-10)the same as the entry in one of the early 1970's NATS. The reason is, pure and simple, the skill classes. Just counting heads.

I, too, believe that "skill classes" as well as "non-official" events like Classic and OTS are, and well should be, part of the Nats experience....and I believe that the overwhelming support in the last PAMPA election of a gentleman that supports the notion suggests that the majority of PAMPA members seem to agree.

Just reviewing the list of folks that purchased Team Support shirts indicates to me that the "Joe Bellcrank's" of PAMPAland support and appreciate those that fly at a high level. Many enjoy excellence.

I happen to believe that the guy that wins Beginner at the Nats deserves some special recognition, as does the Intermediate and Advanced, OTS and Classic winner..... all have excelled at a contest where the very best have gathered.

And I would like to see a Bi-Slob Champion.

See Ya

>>It's absurd to think this will be accomplished by trying to
>>change the format of some obscure contest in the middle of a
>>soybean field in the middle of nowhere that no one in the
>>larger world even imagines exists.
>>
>> Brett
>
>Thanks Brett, another winner.
>Can we Cut/Paste this quote each time it is appropriate?
>
>Curt

Since we are on this subject, I would like to know, especially from you two guys, WHAT ****IS**** THE ANSWER TO GROWING THE SPORT????!!!!! You seem very adept at shooting down others' ideas.

Tell me, what is your idea for improving CLPA attendance nationwide? Peabody obviously feels the Nats would influence the rest of the country. If this is flawed, what is your idea?

Do you have any new ideas, or are you simply playing the constant Devil's Advocate to every fresh idea presented? The answer to the ineviatable drop in attendance appears to be "do nothing". Am I reading this right?

I think that it is all about atmosphere. VSC and, though i have never been myself, Brodak are simply just low-key fun contests to attend. A great example of this for us mid-westerners is the Sig Contest in Montezuma IA. Its just a all-around fun contest to go to for a weekend, shoot the breeze and fly. **smiles* i still dont think that allot of people that go know that it actually IS a contest! On the other hand, some people dont like the pressure of flying against the best in the country. Theres allot of people out there who just hit the local and regional contest circut because they like competition but still want to keep the fun in it. I realize that there are also those who thrive on that pressure; i do myself at times, but allot of people are still purist and only go for the fun of just flying and hanging out with friends. In the end i guess its a matter of how much of a "hard-core" stunt grunt you really are. Just my oppinion of course, and i hope it doesnt offend anyone, but thats what is so great about modeling, to me, is that you can take it to whatever level you want and still have fun.

>And I would like to see a Bi-Slob Champion.

>See Ya

>Peabody

Peabody,

I have absolutely no doubt you would like to see a Bi-Slob champion.

I say you have sets your sights way too low, but just happen to be in a **perfect** position to do something about it.

Rustle up all the people in Muncie at this moment in time who are responsible for staging of World Championships for CL.

Tell them *all about* your grandiose plans for adding Beginner PA World Champ, Intermediate PA World Champ, Advanced PA World Champ to contest coming up in 2006. Oh, don't forget to slip in Bi-Slob World Champ under both age classes and Beg./Int./Adv. skill level classes, doubling the fun by having two divisions, kit-built and ARF/ARC Bi-Slobs.

And that ill-defined "celebration of the hobby" thing you got going on ought of course to be included in your presentation.

Do report back as soon as possible on how well this went.

From Peabody:

"I, too, believe that "skill classes" as well as "non-official" events like Classic and OTS are, and well should be, part of the Nats experience....and I believe that the overwhelming support in the last PAMPA election of a gentleman that supports the notion suggests that the majority of PAMPA members seem to agree.

Just reviewing the list of folks that purchased Team Support shirts indicates to me that the "Joe Bellcrank's" of PAMPAland support and appreciate those that fly at a high level. Many enjoy excellence."

Peabody

...minor snip...

Peabody,

I would be ever more comfortable in hearing Mr. Brodak state his support of what is appropriate for the AMA Nationals than to hear same from you. Especially as I have at hand two campaign letters from Brodak stating that he has no interest at all in the competitive side of CL Stunt and does not intend to be involved in this side of CL flying.

In any case, you are urged to not presuppose any mandates coming with the results of most recent PAMPA elections. I know you will, just don't think you should.

As to those buying Team Support shirts and who they might be, this does not represent solidification of your position. Just the opposite, in fact. Yes, we support excellence and those who fly at a high level.

This would not, by definition, include those flying in Advanced PA, let alone Intermediate or Beginner or Bi-Slob Stunt.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-04 AT 07:47 PM (CDT)
 
>From Peabody:
>
>"I, too, believe that "skill classes" as well as
>"non-official" events like Classic and OTS are, and well
>should be, part of the Nats experience....and I believe that
>the overwhelming support in the last PAMPA election of a
>gentleman that supports the notion suggests that the
>majority of PAMPA members seem to agree.
>
>Just reviewing the list of folks that purchased Team Support
>shirts indicates to me that the "Joe Bellcrank's" of
>PAMPAland support and appreciate those that fly at a high
>level. Many enjoy excellence."
>
>Peabody
>
>...minor snip...
>
>Peabody,
>
>I would be ever more comfortable in hearing Mr. Brodak state
>his support of what is appropriate for the AMA Nationals
>than to hear same from you. Especially as I have at hand two
>campaign letters from Brodak stating that he has no interest
>at all in the competitive side of CL Stunt and does not
>intend to be involved in this side of CL flying.
>
>In any case, you are urged to not presuppose any mandates
>coming with the results of most recent PAMPA elections. I
>know you will, just don't think you should.
>
>As to those buying Team Support shirts and who they might
>be, this does not represent solidification of your position.
>Just the opposite, in fact. Yes, we support excellence and
>those who fly at a high level.
>
>This would not, by definition, include those flying in
>Advanced PA, let alone Intermediate or Beginner or Bi-Slob
>Stunt.
>
>Dan

Dan,

I voted for Mr. Brodak and I bought a Team Support Shirt and until this very moment didn't realize what a wonderful idea Mr. Peabody has. Just think of it, ARF Bi-Slob Stunt Champion! Wahoo!
I'm there! Show me the way to Muncie!

I too support excellence and those who fly at a high level but those Bi-Slobs can fly at low levels also, don't cha know.

Lets all write to Mr. Brodak and see if we can get him involved in the competitive side of CL Stunt. I think I'll send him an Email right now. [email protected]

I'm with you all the way Mr. Peabody.

Regards,
John Jolley

"Meanness does more harm to the vessel it's stored in than the vessel it's poured in.”

Ariella Frommer

LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-04 AT 10:47 PM (CDT)
 
Come on guys...

It should be obvious that Mr Peabody (Is that a real name?) just likes to keep things stirred up.

By making these absurd suggestions and comments, he gets to sit back and watch the fur fly among the troops.

Plenty of attention for himself, with almost zero energy output.

At most contests, the volunteer staff and judges pools are strained already. If these Bi-Slob events are such a good idea, prehaps Mr Peabody should see about adding them to the GSCB's Fall Meet's schedule and report back.

Bigs

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

Peabody is the guy that you buy the "Team" support shirts from...

I'm confused. John Brodak is not interested in CL stunt competition, yet annually hosts a large (largest?) CL Competition in his backyard. How come?

Oh, it's a real name, but just wait until you get to meet him, Ha.

Hi Mr. Peabody, for my money to get the NATS better attended we should get more flights for qualifing.I have to drive 2,400 miles one way to get 4 flights. If I qualify I get 2 more on Friday.6 flights total It's really nice but it's still 4 flights for me.Then I drive back 2,400 miles to Seattle.

now my two cents worth again. What if the powers to be at AMA decided that only rule book events only could be flown during Nats week/month? Look at freeflight and radio control. If the clock were turned back to the early sixties and rule book events only maybe the Nats could be done in one week and moved around the country again. Also precision aerobactics would be a one day affair again as well as the others events. Later, DOC PS:I now go to Tuscon for the people as well as the various airplanes. Me winning a flying trophy, what a joke. I have managed the odd ball trophies. Do plan on Brodaks one of these years with the grandaughters.

FRIENDS,
Plese asist me in identifying what fun is?????As oppossed to what competition is?????Both have elements of fun within it..This notion that you or I have discovered what fun is for someone else is odd to say the least...I am involved in flying stunt models for many reasons, however, the primary purpose for me is to be or fly competitively.. Because I allow myself the freedom to be competitive, at times, I experience fun while I am doing it...Believe me, flying stunt models is not always fun!!!Speaking for myself only...It is one of the many factors that have forced me to step aside from the event over the past few years...
To me, the Nationals is the biggest "Fun Fly" of the year....Only because I have "fun" being competitive..This event does not have to distinguish well this is a fun fly and this is competition for me to have fun...Speaking from my perception, The Brodak event is a competitive control line event, masked as a "fun fly"..Trust me, those participants who pay to fly in front of judges want to win as much or more than any event during that flying year..The degree of importance lies within that individual...That is the nature of being competitive, you want to win, do well, or at least acheive your set goals...I have attended Brodak's, and it was not always fun!!!!Once again "It is slated as "Fun Fly"..However, I felt that I needed to state that in order to be qoute part of the party line!!!!!I would have been looked at as "weird"..Please explain to me how you or anyone experince's fun when you have traveled 10000 miles, payed for the event, entered and experinced a motor run that forced you not to complete your pattern..The most important aspect I would think is to respond "genuinely". A normal appropriate response to that situation would be disappointment...My point is, would someone who is qoute: "not serious" or not "competitive" experienced fun from a similar circumstance??? Call it what you may....When you flip that prop at whatever event you attend something tells me that competitive characteristic enter's the picture. Weather it is at Brodak's, The Nationals, Sig, VSC, and/or Clovis. Attempting to define what fun is for me based on how you describe/define the event is sensless...So the next time someone says, Hey David, you have to attend Brodak's event because it is so "fun"!! I'll say fun for who????I am going to be competitive, if having fun is part of the picture and my personal experince then great..Thanks David....

I think David's post has got tons of merit. The advertisement of fun seems to be the main difference. Indeed, from what I read here, the Nats is "advertised" to be a big drag. I havn't been to a contest yet that wasn't a ton of fun, generally full of the exact same type generous good folks.

I do think it's insane to not even want to draw a lager crowd to the nats. If the facilities are so great, the contestants so skilled, where could possibly exist a better place to impress or help newbies or wannabes?

"I think a contest held over a long weekend would be much more feasible for the regular folks who are not retired or airline pilots, attendants, etc and who have large amounts of time off from work."

The City Smasher

Well, it's true, I was able to attend EVERY contest I wanted to....while I was furloughed. Havn't been able to even attend ONE since I was recalled. Can't speak for the retirees or etcs.

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