Presently building a Brodak Tanger and will be looking at a Nobler later this winter. .35-.46 is specified in the kits and I think the .46 is for me. Is there anything wrong with the FOX
.46? It has been 25 years since I fooled around with this stuff. We always ran FOX and did OK. Today I have a bit more concern for performance (hp/weight,2-4-2 break etc.). Recently rebuilt
my Ambroid Stuka that has been hanging on the wall for 25 years
and powered it with a fresh FOX .35 it seems to be OK. After reading some of the stuff that is out there today I must admit I am not only lost but confused too.
Had a discussion with Matt Neuman via telephone a couple of weeks ago and he recomended the ASP or .35 FP OS. I guess I am reluctant to go any direction that I am not familar with.
Jeff,
The recomendation of a modified FP35 is a good one.
The nobler only has a small tail, and if you put something heavy like a Fox 46 in it, it just won't turn for you. I'm not a believer of adding tail weight to balance an overweight engine either.
A modified FP35 will be more than enough power.
Fox .46 is way too big and WAY too heavy for either kit. I think there was a thread here (or at Isky's?) about the best power for a Nobler, you should try the search functions at both sites. If you don't need a muffler, the Fox .35 on 10% nitro, 25% castor and a real good prop would be fine. The Double Star .40 seems logical, but they generally don't put out much more power than a Fox .35, tho I think there is potential to improve. The Stalker (.35 or .40?) would be high on my list, and I already have a DS .40 reworked by GMA. The Tower .40 with a Mac's Muffler #6650 and a Tornado 3 blade 10-4 would probably get the job, but there is a problem with the pipe outlet and the wing LE. Angling the outlet would solve that if you know a welder. Steve
LAST EDITED ON Oct-24-01 AT 11:20 PM (CDT)> I think there
>was a thread here (or
>at Isky's?) about the best
>power for a Nobler, you
>should try the search functions
>at both sites. If you
>don't need a muffler, the
>Fox .35 on 10% nitro,
>25% castor and a real
>good prop would be fine.
>The Double Star .40 seems
>logical, but they generally don't
>put out much more power
>than a Fox .35, tho
>I think there is potential
>to improve. The Stalker (.35
>or .40?) would be high
>on my list, and I
>already have a DS .40
>reworked by GMA.
I know this may seem inconsistent/hypocritical coming from me, but I would take my chances with a stock Fox over either the Double Star or Stalker 35/40. It may just be the individual examples that I've seen, but both the Double Star 40 and the Stalkers seem to be no match at all, powerwise, for a Fox. I've seen several Stalker 35's/40's that simply wouldn't fly a Nakke (a Nobler-sized airplane) fast enough to more than stagger through a pattern. Additionally, the Double Star 40 that I saw this weekend wouldn't come close to swinging a 10-6 fast enough to fly a Gieseke Nobler.
A Fox is hardly a performance machine, but put a 10-6 Rev-Up on it and it will fly a Nobler just fine. As long as you feed it plenty of oil, sufficient nitro, and mount it inverted, it'll work. It didn't win all those contests for nothing.
Brett
p.s. The Fox is not really enough for the Tanager. Think SSW 35fp, Aero-Tiger 36, or similar.
The Kiwi · Oct 24, 2001 11:49 PM
RE: Engine Suggestions for two (Brodak) model kits #4 sourceLAST EDITED ON Oct-25-01 AT 00:52 AM (CDT)Now, let's split the two apart by more than just the fact that a Tanager is a profile plane. It's a straight-chord design with a larger wing than a Nobler by about 25-30 square inches. Profiles tend to run heavier in total than equivalent models with built-up fuselages (the Tanager is a profile version of another Brodak model - called the Accentor - and both borrowed the wing from a 1959 design of Bob Palmer's named the "Pow Wow").
The TF ads always referred to Noblers as having "550" square inches when a little time with a yardstick and a pocket calculator gets about 530 squares. But we all read those ads so many times and never measured our planes (me, neither, it was a friend who corrected me).
You can build a Brodak Nobler to weigh 43-45 ounces without going nuts with any special weight-saving techniques. You will be lucky to keep a Tanager's weight from reaching 50 ounces. The Tanager needs a 40. The Nobler will be happy with a 35.
(Here's where to bid on a 40 for the Tanager, a new eBay auction just started yesterday:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1654122403)
Also, not all 35's were created equal. Not even all Fox 35's. Get a Fox ABC piston and cylinder for a Fox 35 and you'll have a real gem - quite light, with far better starting and vibrating characteristics. It may even offer more power with the ABC guts in it; I can only guess that might simply be because less wasted motion is going into vibration!
Kiwi
P.S. The eMail address on file in Jeff's member profile doesn't work. I tried to write you back-channel, Jeff, but it bounced!
mrwhizkers · Oct 25, 2001 12:23 AM
RE: Engine Suggestions for two (Brodak) model kits #5 sourceNobler-LA 40
Tananger-LA 46
There's no such thing as "too much power".
kdheath · Oct 25, 2001 12:46 AM
RE: Engine Suggestions for two (Brodak) model kits #6 sourceLAST EDITED ON Oct-25-01 AT 00:53 AM (CDT)>Nobler-LA 40
>Tananger-LA 46
>
>There's no such thing as "too
>much power".
But as I have learned to my chagrin, the power has a price- and that is weight. All the power in the world won't turn a nose-heavy CL stunter. You just get a fast bowling ball.
The Tanager/46 sounds pretty reasonable, but the Nobler needs a light 35 or 36. I am going to try a SSW Magnum 36 in mine.
godzilla · Oct 25, 2001 09:26 AM
RE: Engine Suggestions for two (Brodak) model kits #7 source>
LAST EDITED ON Oct-25-01
>AT 00:53 AM (CDT) >
>>Nobler-LA 40
>>Tananger-LA 46
>>
>>There's no such thing as "too
>>much power".
>
> But as I have
>learned to my chagrin, the
>power has a price- and
>that is weight. All the
>power in the world won't
>turn a nose-heavy CL stunter.
>You just get a fast
>bowling ball.
Shorten the nose 1/4" to 1/2".
> The Tanager/46 sounds pretty
>reasonable, but the Nobler needs
>a light 35 or 36.
>I am going to try
>a SSW Magnum 36 in
>mine.
What is s SSW Magnum 36?
What about the 25 LA? I just bought one yesterday to test and play around with. It has no boost port and appears to weigh the same as the Fox 35. The instructions suggest an 11-5 prop.
Makes sense really. The 46 LA will put out the power of a loop scavenged ST 60. Maybe the 25 will out do a good Fox 35 (on no doubt less fuel).
The Kiwi · Oct 25, 2001 09:38 AM
RE: Engine Suggestions for two (Brodak) model kits #8 source>>... All the power in the world won't turn a nose-heavy
>>CL stunter. You just get a fast bowling ball.
>
>Shorten the nose 1/4" to 1/2".
>
Good for the Tanager, maybe not for the Nobler.
>
>> ... the Nobler needs a light 35 or 36. I am going to
>>try a SSW Magnum 36 in mine.
>
>What is s SSW Magnum 36?
>
Both Magnum & Thunder Tiger make clones of the OS Max SX 32, but each one has gone up to the 36 size. All three are BB-Shaft Schneurle Ported screamers in a compact size. The OS & TT will almost fit into Fox Stunt 35 mount holes, and have narrow lower ends that fit the same bearer spacings.
Add Leonard Neumann's touch, and they become aerial tractors!
>
>What about the 25 LA? I just bought one yesterday
>to test and play around with. It has no boost port
>and appears to weigh the same as the Fox 35.
It may also have the same bolt pattern as the above named pair of OS/TT engines.
>
K.
I also am going to build a Brodak Nobler and had the same questions. Leonard reminded me that an engine larger than a .40 requires .018 lines per AMA. I'm going with a Tower .40 and eventually will get it worked over by Leonard. If you don't have an engine, it looks to me like the worked over 35FP would be an exelent choice.
Mike
Mike,
Just a note of warning here, the Tower .40 when modified by Len, does not like to run well on upright or inverted mountings. However the .35 does run well in all mounting environments. I believe the .35 as modified by Len is all that is needed. It has the approximate equivelant power of an ST .46. And yes, I have one, that's how I know how powerful it is!
My 2 cents: A Brodak Nobler with a .46? WOW! The first thing you should plan on is LOTS of tail weight. I built mine with an unmuffled Fox .35, plastic spinner, wood prop, no doublers and still needed 1 1/2 ounces of tailweight. It came out at 36 ounces with only a few weight-saving shortcuts. As I recall, the ST .46 is around four ounces heavier than the Fox .35. With the Fox and a Top-Flite 10-6 it is too fast - you may have to do some magic with props to keep it under control with a .46. But, if you really want a .46, give the OS LA a try. Quite a few people here use them and most are quite pleased. Being a plain bearing engine, it's probably lighter than most of the ball bearing .46s.
Bob
I you don't want to go with a re-worked FP35, Magnum do a 28 that is small and light, and will have better torque than say an FP25. A magnum 36 is in a bigger and heavier case, again the result will be nose heavy. The 28 has identical bolt pattern as the Fox, but is about 1/2" longer. I've played with modified FP25's and the Magnum 28. Just fill the boost port on the 28 and shim the head to suit the power & run you desire. You won't have to add any tailweight to the average nobler. It would naturally be best to replace the heavy stock muffler tho.
If you're a die hard power hungry nut and can't help putting a bigger motor in than really necessary, add an inch of span to the tail plane when you build the model. Add it at the root rather than the tips.
What Brett pointed out about the Double Star .40 appears to be typical for most of them. However, the NAKKE is close to 600 sqinches, very suited to a .40 or .46. My DS .40 was sent off to GMA when I saw a notice at Tom Dixon's website about some of the DS engines being fitted too tight, and needing to be honed to fit. Tom Dixon offered to do this for free, with a brake cylinder hone. Being a machinist, I sent mine to the man with the Sunnen Hone, GMA. He looked at it (and another, at the same time), and said that the fit was fine, but the compression was too low, the venturi too small and the cross hole in the spraybar too small. GMA corrected these perceived design flaws, test ran, and sent the engine back, but I have not flown it yet. Spring '02, I hope. My theory is that with low compression, the venturi had to be small to obtain adequate draw through the spraybar with the small spray hole, thus limiting power. From Brett's comments in May/ June about Bruce Hunt's GMA ST .60, it seems that George may have tended toward low compression and large venturi, so his desire to increase compression on the DS .40 would indicate that there was indeed some error in that department. If by chance the owner of the 2nd GMA DS .40 reads this, please contact me with your results. I believe I have printed GMA's emails regarding the rework and results, if any DS owner is interested.
We have not seen many Stalkers 'round these parts, but for Randy Powell's and Keith Varley's .61's. Both like theirs, but had to change their fuels to be at least similar to the factory recommended mix, which I think is 0-5% nitro and 20% synthetic oil, in both cases. The Stalker and DS engines have very hard chrome and lots of silicon content in the pistons, so they will take a lot more break-in than a typical Japanese or American ABC or ABN engine. If you buy a Stalker or DS and insist on running 10% nitro and 25% castor, you will be very disappointed. It appears that the DS is not an out-of-the-box winner, but the potential may be there if you want a 4-2-4 engine.
I had not thought of the Magnum .28 or .36, but those should be very suitable for the Nobler, at least in SSW tune. What I wrote was that I'd probably use a Tower .40 with the Mac's muffler setup per Scott Riese, Not a SSW rework. The Tower .40/OS FP .40 does not "burp" on corners when running stock with Mac's muffler and flat pitch props, per Scott. The SSW mods increase torque so radically and the big prop lowers the rpm so much that low fuel flow velocity may cause the burp. Maybe more bypass work would fix that? A SSW .35 FP would be nice if you can find one. Steve
godzilla · Oct 27, 2001 09:13 AM
I am test running the 25 LA. #14 sourceI am test running the 25 LA. This is the LA not the FP (no boost port). Box stock, with supplied remote needle and muffler with the baffle removed.
Pretty darn powerful I’d say. Easy to needle and will 4 cycle. Already a good start.
10% nitro 11/11 oil. Beepy 4-cycle. APC 10-4 tops at 11,000 RPM. Needles well, but very peaky and big difference in RPM between solid 4 and top of the 2.
5% nitro 11/11 oil. Very solid 4 cycle. Ballsy sounding, very stunty. I dare say this is better than a FOX 35. Well, most of them. Some are real good.
10-4 or 10-5 or 10-6 APC, BY & O or Rev-Up would be starting prop. 8,500 to 9,500 RPM.
Mine is hard to start still. Still haven’t figured out a good procedure. Of course, my flipping arm is in a cast.