2004 Nationals, ARFs in Beginner PA.

While a little surprised at it, I have been fielding some questions concerning whether or not ARF models will be allowed to compete in Beginner PA at the U.S. Nationals this year.

As I do not have a definitive answer the appropriate section of the 2002-2004 AMA rule book has been cited, and personally I think that's good enough.

There is, however, some confusion out there and for understandable reasons.

Does anyone have solid information one way or the other on the question of ARFs being allowed or not in upcoming Nationals? What about Intermediate and Advanced PA?

While I don't have it from the ED's or CD's, my understanding is that Arfs can be flown in Intermediate as well as Advanced but will not receive appearance points.

Last year, one of the TEOSAWKI Arfs was flown in intermediate and then went on to advanced.

For Beginner, since no appearance points are used, ARF's should be OK as well.

Peabody should be able to verify this for Intermediate. Allen Brickhaus for Beginner, and I don't know who for Advanced.

FWIW

I think this was discussed a while back .....FOR THE NATS
NO ARF'S PERIOD!
Scott(I've been wrong six times)Riese

>I think this was discussed a while back .....FOR THE NATS
>NO ARF'S PERIOD!

I looked at the entry form for Advanced, and it says nothing at all about restricting the ARF models, so they can be flown as stated - in perfectly clear terms - in the rule book. This is an official AMA event. I believe no stated exceptions are made in the Beginner and Intermediate contest announcements, therefore they are allowed as per the current rules as well.

This, unlike many other things in stunt, is neither rocket science nor brain surgery. The current official AMA rules ALLOW ARFs in Skill Classes, in no uncertain terms. There is no valid argument to the contrary possible.

This is precisely why that SN survey is so misleading.

>I think this was discussed a while back .....FOR THE NATS
>NO ARF'S PERIOD!
>Scott(I've been wrong six times)Riese

NOW FMHO...ARF'S should be able to fly in any contest period.

Scott(people can stop sending me e-mails)Riese

For crying out loud yes! You simply forfeit appearance points and Beginners dont get appearance points anyhow! Several pre-built ARF type models have flown in Beginner and plenty of borrowed or purchased planes that were flown in every event but Open. After crashing in 97', I borrowed my Dads plane in Advanced and placed 14th.

Current rules as stated cleary says that if a flyer is not the BOM then he or she can fly with a forfieture of appearance points in either Adavanced, Intermediate, or Beginner sans appearance points. Thus, ARFS do in fact comply with the rules as stated. Further thanks to Dan for stirring the pot you MFP!!! Hey Danno? you related to Rich P?!He stirs his pot with salt!

John Sunderland

>Current rules as stated cleary says that if a flyer is not
>the BOM then he or she can fly with a forfieture of
>appearance points in either Adavanced, Intermediate, or
>Beginner sans appearance points. Thus, ARFS do in fact
>comply with the rules as stated. Further thanks to Dan for
>stirring the pot you MFP!!! Hey Danno? you related to Rich
>P?!He stirs his pot with salt!

While Dan has certainly been displaying a certain Peabodyesque bent, in this case it's far from idle stirring of the pot. I have had a large number of questions along the same lines - "is PAMPA now going to start disallowing ARFs?"- based on the SN survey and the confusion it engendered. Even before I got my copy via 1st-class mail!

I sort of understand what the purpose was (although I still don't see why the question needed to be asked in the first place), but given the pre-existing air of tension, it was like lighting off a firecracker in a hornet's nest.

Two reasons why this is an issue: 1) The AMA doesn't seem to think it is worthwhile sending everybody rule books...you have to request them, order them, or be CD of a sanctioned contest. 2) Most seem to be too lazy to look up the regs that apply. To be fair about it, it's not very well organized...ya frequently gotta read the General Rules, then the CL General Rules, then the Stunt Rules. In this case, the Stunt Rules countermand the General Rules. Steve

Steve,
I am sure it doesn't matter whether the AMA sends out the rulebook or not. I doubt that 99.9% of the AMA recipients would even bother to read the rule book anyway. Now if you limit yourself to competitors, the non-readers would probably drop to 99.8% .

I agree that the rule book is confusing, but I suspect that is the way of rules, that the more specialized the event, the more rules which are added.

>I agree that the rule book is confusing, but I suspect that
>is the way of rules, that the more specialized the event,
>the more rules which are added.

The rule book itself is actually pretty clear - but it doesn't take too many contradictory rumors or statements to start the confusion. That's what is going on here.

I’m not sure how many threads need to be started before people get the point on this issue. It seems so simple to me, can’t understand why it’s not simple for everyone to understand. Fly an ARF and you forfeit appearance points, maybe it’s to simple??

>I’m not sure how many threads need to be started before
>people get the point on this issue. It seems so simple to
>me, can’t understand why it’s not simple for everyone to
>understand. Fly an ARF and you forfeit appearance points,
>maybe it’s to simple??

It was perfectly well understood by some until the May/June SN came out, then it became confusing due to apparently conflicting input. I might also add us hashing it out here only reaches those who participate here - and that's a small fraction of those who read SN.

The TEOSAWKI flown in intermediate at last years
NATS was flown by Clayton Smith ,the builder of the
airplanes, so I dont think it qualifies as an ARF
if he is flying it. It would if I am flying mine or
any of the other 15 or 20 people who own the things.
BTW its a very good inexpensive airplane that flys well
with several setups as has been exhibited by the contest
results here in the southeast.
Marshall Busby

Current rules as stated cleary says that if a flyer is not the BOM then he or she can fly with a forfieture of appearance points in either Adavanced, Intermediate, or Beginner sans appearance points. Thus, ARFS do in fact comply with the rules as stated. Further thanks to Dan for stirring the pot you MFP!!! Hey Danno? you related to Rich P?!He stirs his pot with salt!

John Sunderland

John,

How amusing...

Look, as I am not going to the Nationals anyway, it is not a big deal to me personally.

However, I've got friends, at least several of whom do not want to raise their hands here--even though they look in on this site from time to time--but still want answers to an issue which was thoroughly muddied via a survey in current Stunt News.

I actually do not know all the names of all the people doing good work in putting on the various events at the Nationals, so if I state something in error here I will be more than willing to be corrected.

As it has been put to me, one of the same people putting forth the survey in Stunt News is also heading up Beginner PA. If AMA rules apply, no exceptions as required by advance notice clause, ARFs and loaners and all manner of models sourced outside one's own shop will be allowed, which is exactly what I have been telling people.

Their response is to point out information in said survey.

I think it would be helpful if we got unimpeachable input on this issue.

Until then, AMA rules apply; I hope everyone has a great time.