Transitioning from inverted to upright plane turned in lines went slack etc. etc.
Greg L. Bahrman
HIT HARD!!!
Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 24 of 24 known posts recovered
You shoudn'ta changed the Cardinal design!!!!
nah, that is terrible to see.....my condolances on the loss of that great looking plane.......I bet the insanity is setting back in....that is enough to make you go mad!
In the battle of airplane V ground, the ground is yet to lose.
cyberflyer · Jun 16, 2004 08:46 PM
#2 sourceCondolences.
Insanity, we barely knew ye.
Cy.
The Cat Whisperer
Yep been there done that.
Way too much tip weight is the most likely cause.
In an 8, the plane rolls with the outer wing doing the larger turn,
pulling out on the lines. Reversing the controles has the plane still banked from the prevous turn, now the lift is into the circle and line tension lost before it can roll the other way.
That sound about right?
Darn, looks like it was a nice plan too! 
Regards,
Ken
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-04 AT 08:42 AM (CDT)
Deleted
Deleted
Greg L. Bahrman
A beautiful ship and a real shame.
Now the inevitable analysis(I'm assuming wind not a factor)as it is imperative to profit from our mistakes:
A warp, too little power to do the maneuver, too little tip weight all come quickly to mind. Was the outboard wing high in level flight and low with greater line tension in inverted flight? If so-warp, easily corrected by twisting and shrinking $kote and/or tweaking flaps. Too little power: Don't recall engine used but was it real rich and slow? If so better needle setting before doing maneuvers. Too little tip weight? How much was used? Too much is WAY better than too little. A good starting point would be at least an ounce.
Perhaps a combination of two or more of these factors came into play as this is a relatively non-critical maneuver which any airplane even close to being in trim should have survived.
Hang tough-the good news is that the ARF Cardinals should be out any day-get one, use plenty of power, don't waste a lot of time tricking it up or making it heavier than it needs to be, just get it in trim and fly it until your arm falls off.
Now the inevitable analysis(I'm assuming wind not a factor)as it is imperative to profit from our mistakes:
A warp, too little power to do the maneuver, too little tip weight all come quickly to mind. Was the outboard wing high in level flight and low with greater line tension in inverted flight? If so-warp, easily corrected by twisting and shrinking $kote and/or tweaking flaps. Too little power: Don't recall engine used but was it real rich and slow? If so better needle setting before doing maneuvers. Too little tip weight? How much was used? Too much is WAY better than too little. A good starting point would be at least an ounce.
Perhaps a combination of two or more of these factors came into play as this is a relatively non-critical maneuver which any airplane even close to being in trim should have survived.
Hang tough-the good news is that the ARF Cardinals should be out any day-get one, use plenty of power, don't waste a lot of time tricking it up or making it heavier than it needs to be, just get it in trim and fly it until your arm falls off.
Tim McTigue · Jun 16, 2004 09:57 PM
#5 sourceOh, MAN!! That really BITES! FWIW, I've never understood why anyone would want to use words like "Temporary", or "Impact" in names for planes, but that's just me...
Tim
MAAC 65703
Crash2much · Jun 16, 2004 10:33 PM
#6 sourceGreg, by the looks of things this has taken the term "Hit Hard" to another level. Real shame, I thought that your finished photos were of a beautiful plane.
Bill
I build more planes than I fly, collect more engines than I'll ever use. That about says it, right?
Steve Helmick · Jun 16, 2004 10:47 PM
#7 source"Transitioning from inverted to upright plane turned in lines went slack etc. etc."
Was this doing an outside or inside recovery? I told you in the other thread not to get too frisky until the trim is worked out. Get in line for one of the ARF/ARC Cardinals or Pathfinders. I'm sorry for your loss. Steve
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-04 AT 05:52 AM (CDT)
Thats rebuildable.
Thats rebuildable.
There's another story for my "worst f2b moment of your life" post
If you have to do 2 level laps between each manouver... Why doesnt anyone do 2 level laps between starting and takeoff??
Steven Yampolsky · Jun 17, 2004 06:36 AM
#9 source>Transitioning from inverted to upright plane turned in lines
>went slack etc. etc.
>went slack etc. etc.
Alright! More room to build cool new planes!!!!!
I like to think positively about these things. You can now start planning and building your next beauty!
Steven Yampolsky
Webmaster for www.control-line.org
Ahhh man...that stinks. Call the next one "Permanent Insanity" 
Fred Krueger · Jun 17, 2004 09:09 AM
#11 sourceGreg,
Very sorry to see the loss.
I had a similar event with my last profile (2 years ago). Having engine run difficulties, I chose to fly most of the tank out while doing gentle lazy-8s. A small thermal suddenly reversed the wind direction and blew the plane across the circle. The result is obvious.
Fortunately, I did not have the effort in this plane that you had in yours. Yours was truly a work of art!
Fred
Too many airplanes - too little time.
Sorry this happened. I thought this was a nice looking profile.
Paul
I am a retread, - I did C/L in my youth and did not know what I was doing then other then having fun. And not much has changed.
Circle Burner · Jun 17, 2004 09:50 AM
#13 sourceVery sharp plane, sorry to see it broken:-(
Larry Cunningham · Jun 17, 2004 10:02 AM
#14 sourceGreg,
Here I was just marveling over this beauty a short time back, and now it is gone. All GOOD stunters break like glass, what a shame.
If it is any consolation, almost to a man, it has happened to all of us. Look at what you learned about building and finishing on that ship!
You can apply it to the next project. Onward and upward. Next one will be even better.
[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]
"One thing they never tell you about child raising is that for the rest of your life, at the drop of a hat, you are expected to know your child's name and how old he or she is." -Erma Bombeck
LAST EDITED ON Jun-18-04 AT 02:34 PM (CDT)
Thanks to all of you and your kind words. Yeah, I really did learn a lot building this plane. This was my first sprayed finish. I used a Harbor freight purchased gun, cheapo $20.00 dollar unit. I think it was called a touch up gun. I learned to build the Tom Morris millenimun wing and controls. This was the first time I ever used Polyspan as a covering material. This was the first time I used Aeropoxy Light fillet material. I learned about masking etc. This plane even though I was in the process of trimming had turning qualities that none of my other planes have ever had. Just disappointed as I had plans to fly it in this years upcoming contests and of course once it was trimmed I was going to give Paul Walker a run for his money. Well, in my dreams anyway.....Thanks Guys, you are the best!! Not to worry I'll be back. The wife says I can only fly ARF's and any nice planes I have to hang up in the garage, Yeah Right!!
Thanks to all of you and your kind words. Yeah, I really did learn a lot building this plane. This was my first sprayed finish. I used a Harbor freight purchased gun, cheapo $20.00 dollar unit. I think it was called a touch up gun. I learned to build the Tom Morris millenimun wing and controls. This was the first time I ever used Polyspan as a covering material. This was the first time I used Aeropoxy Light fillet material. I learned about masking etc. This plane even though I was in the process of trimming had turning qualities that none of my other planes have ever had. Just disappointed as I had plans to fly it in this years upcoming contests and of course once it was trimmed I was going to give Paul Walker a run for his money. Well, in my dreams anyway.....Thanks Guys, you are the best!! Not to worry I'll be back. The wife says I can only fly ARF's and any nice planes I have to hang up in the garage, Yeah Right!!
Greg L. Bahrman
Randy Powell · Jun 18, 2004 12:17 PM
#16 sourceBeen there, done that and have numerous T-Shirts. It hurts every single time.
Greg as you know I had a bad year in stunt last year,I put 3 in the dumpster! You can have that grey I beam plane in my shop if you want it. Scott Dinger
LAST EDITED ON Jul-04-04 AT 04:42 PM (CDT)
True to his word. I stopped by to pick up some parts from Scott Dinger the Hy Flow muffler man and he said, "here it is, take it home and clean it up and you will have a flyable plane". It was a profile 40-46 size stunter all in one piece. It looks like it will do good duty for now until I get another of my own built. I thought it was really nice, can't remember anyone ever doing that before. THANKS SCOTT!!
True to his word. I stopped by to pick up some parts from Scott Dinger the Hy Flow muffler man and he said, "here it is, take it home and clean it up and you will have a flyable plane". It was a profile 40-46 size stunter all in one piece. It looks like it will do good duty for now until I get another of my own built. I thought it was really nice, can't remember anyone ever doing that before. THANKS SCOTT!!
For those who asked.
"Temporary Insanity" was made from a Brodak Cardinal kit I received in a trade with a RC hobbyist. Many of the parts were missing so I redesigned the fuse to my liking. I actually by my design increased the existing side area of the fuse which stock is known to fly just fine. The dimensions of the locations of the wing and stab were not changed from the original design. Due to the fact that there were so many missing pieces in the kit and I couldn’t build the wing with what I had so I built a Tom Morris Millennium type wing, I could of ordered a wing kit from Brodak but I already had the necessary wing fixture etc. and it would probably be lighter than stock. I built the wing with equal wing panels so it carried a little more tip weight than the stock would have. This plane flew with no hinging as so many of you refer to by over weighting the outboard wing. I had the plane trimmed to the point where it did both outside and inside squares just fine with no bobbles. It would do the down leg of wing over and go inverted at my command. It was the best flying ship I have built to date and I haven’t built that many having recently returned to control line after being gone for forty years. The plane was powered with a OS 45 FSR it was running a Gerry Phelps 10 ½ X 4 ½ prop at lap times at 5.3 on 63 foot lines using a hard point handle. When this accident happened it was a real disappointment that I had lost such a fine ship. The day of the accident I had put in 5 complete patterns and felt it was ready for competition. The day I was flying there was more that one whirl wind or dust devil that had passed thru the area. The circle I was flying on was clean so there was no dust warning of what was to come. I flew into it and realized it to late. It was a loss due to the weather. The ship flew great as do all the Cardinals.
Greg L. Bahrman
Tim McTigue · Jul 04, 2004 06:04 PM
#21 source"The day I was flying there was more that one whirl wind or dust devil that had passed thru the area. The circle I was flying on was clean so there was no dust warning of what was to come. I flew into it and realized it to late. It was a loss due to the weather."
Wow, Greg, that's heartbreaking. Somehow I bet it hurst more that it was due to something like that. For myself, I think I could accept pilot error a lot easier. Last season I crashed my Flite Streak after catching a line on a weed on takeoff. Frustrating! Glad to hear about your "replacement" plane - that's a class act!
Happy flying!
Tim
MAAC 65703
Patrick Rowan · Jul 04, 2004 10:52 PM
#22 sourceHey Greg,
Sorry to see such a nice stunt plane go away so fast.
My hat is off to Scott Dinger for giving you a stunt plane while you build another. Everyone should have stunt friends like Scott.
Fly Stunt
Yeah Pat,
We all get a little cranky here on the forum now and them. But there are some who just shine thru no matter what. Scott knew that I also pranged my back up plane during practice at the last contest and left early. This 4TH of July we all need to give thought to all that we have in this great country. And the Stunt family is really a great group of guys always willing to give help or advice when they can.
We all get a little cranky here on the forum now and them. But there are some who just shine thru no matter what. Scott knew that I also pranged my back up plane during practice at the last contest and left early. This 4TH of July we all need to give thought to all that we have in this great country. And the Stunt family is really a great group of guys always willing to give help or advice when they can.
Greg L. Bahrman