OTS judging opinion

The old time pattern calls for 5 inside loops. Lets say a guy does 6 having lost count and wanting to be sure he does them all.
It seems clear he would not lose pattern points assuming the maneuver was done in the proper sequence, etc.
What about his score for the maneuver-downgrade? Let it slide? Decide YOU miscounted and the guy only did 5? What?

Sorry,

This old grinch WOULD dock appearance points, too. The FIVE loops were not done as the rules require. Figure score could still be good, but not perfect.

The odd thing in OTS is that you can get pattern points even if you crash -- if you have done all figures up to that point correctly and in correct order.

Funny thing, this has happened to me and the judges here in the Northwest being light hearted gave me an extra point for the extra loop. {Chris Cox} The Canadians are the best, they really know how to have fun and Vancover, BC, is a great place to go for a mini vacation. I don't remember any appearance points in OT, just pattern points. This is supposed to be a fun event, how come we try to turn every event into "more than fun". I personally favor keeping this event simple as this was the event that brought me back into control line. What more can a guy want than a Ringmaster and a Fox 35? Jim J.

I'm sure I have done 6 loops (probably more than one time). However, I am usually so angry at myself after a contest flight, that I never check my score sheets to see any comments written.

After FIVE loops you must exit upright and do ONE level lap for the loops to count. ANYTHING less or more no patteren points.

>After FIVE loops you must exit upright and do ONE level lap
>for the loops to count. ANYTHING less or more no patteren
>points.
Oh, heck, I'll jump in and be contrary.

Doesn't the maneuever end at the end of the fifth loop? Didn't he exit upright? O.K., so he had a squirrely exit which happened to be a 360 pitch "oopsie". What did the flyer do to disqualify himself per the '52 rules?

As mentioned above, the flyer can even crash and if he's done all the tricks up to that point he still gets the pattern points! The '52 rules state you lose pattern points only if you "...neglect to attempt a maneuver, omit one, accomplishe one in other than the proper sequence, or attempt maneuvers after 8 minutes (or time allowed for multi-motored models)."

Hmmmm, no mention of lousy exits to maneuvers!

Give that boy his pattern points!

Ted Fancher

p.s. Nobody said the OTS pattern description covered all the potential pitfalls! I think the extra "point" for the extra loops is entirely appropriate. I mean, six is tougher than five, isn't it?

Give that boy his pattern points!

Ted Fancher

No question about the pattern points and the consensus seems to be that there should be no reduction of the points that would otherwise be awarded for the 5 inside loops.

As to being fun, it would just be a scream if a flyer who did the correct five loops lost to the guy who did 6 by a point. Heck, to really have fun, I might do a dozen insides next contest, a dozen outsides too to keep the lines straight-I've got plenty of fuel on board. No doubt the judges and other contestants would just split a side, especially when they figure out that they shouldn't dock me.

In the UK you would lose the score for the loops AND the pattern points. If you crash, you lose the pattern points because you have not completed the schedule.

SAME HERE......I think?

Scott(still asking questions)Riese

>SAME HERE......I think?
>
>Scott(still asking questions)Riese

If you are talking about the PAMPA OTS rules, then you need to pay heed to what Ted Fancher said in his post #5 above.

If you do 6 laps instead of 5 you will lose your pattern points. when you perform the 6th lap, you are performing an out of sequence manuever. You should be performing a level lap, not a 6th loop.

>If you do 6 laps instead of 5 you will lose your pattern
>points. when you perform the 6th lap, you are performing an
>out of sequence manuever. You should be performing a level
>lap, not a 6th loop.

OK, Dee, I'll bite. Which maneuver are you performing out of sequence?

>If you do 6 laps instead of 5 you will lose your pattern
>points. when you perform the 6th lap, you are performing an
>out of sequence manuever. You should be performing a level
>lap, not a 6th loop.

Thank you DEE.

>If you do 6 laps instead of 5 you will lose your pattern points. when you perform the 6th lap, you are performing an out of sequence manuever. You should be performing a level lap, not a 6th loop.
De Hill

I like this thought(level lap required after FIVE outside loops not done at proper time ie: out of sequence). Logically, there should be some way to rationalize a penalty for extraneous maneuvers.

>Logically, there should be some way to rationalize a penalty
>for extraneous maneuvers.

At least one way to penalize "extraneous maneuvers" is to reduce the score for that maneuver for making a serious error on the "pullout" or "exit" from the maneuver.

>>SAME HERE......I think?
>>
>>Scott(still asking questions)Riese
>
>If you are talking about the PAMPA OTS rules, then you need
>to pay heed to what Ted Fancher said in his post #5 above.

I did....and so far I like worms. So don't go fishing with shrimp.

Don't think it's right!!!!!

>>>SAME HERE......I think?
>>>
>>>Scott(still asking questions)Riese
>>
>>If you are talking about the PAMPA OTS rules, then you need
>>to pay heed to what Ted Fancher said in his post #5 above.
>
>I did....and so far I like worms. So don't go fishing with
>shrimp.
>
>Don't think it's right!!!!!

Scott,

What is it that you do not think is "right"? The published rules are the published rules. So until the rules are changed, by definition, the rules are "right". From the PAMPA OTS rules, Paragraph 6:

"Flight Pattern Points. 25 flight pattern points will be awarded flights in which all maneuvers are attemptd or completed in the correct sequence...."

There is nothing in the PAMPA OTS rules (which are essentially drawn from the 1952 rulebook) that would require loss of pattern points if a maneuver was started but not flown or completed in the manner described in the maneuver description. In other words, in PAMPA OTS, as long as each maneuver was attempted and regardless if the maneuver was completed or even if the maneuver included some extra portions (like an extra loop, or an extra eight or something that is undescribable), the flight is still eligible for pattern points.

This gets into another related subject about how the current rules now read regarding the 25 pattern points. The current rulebook is quite clear that pattern points will be lost if, among other things, for "Not doing the correct number of consecutive maneuvers..." This rule should not be assumed that it applies to OTS because it does not.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-04 AT 05:30 AM (CDT)
 
Out of curiosity - if someone crashes, then manages to glue his plane together Slow Combat style, relaunches, and then completes the pattern in time, does he get any points for the maneuvers after the crash?

(We actually flew it like this in Singapore two years ago... I was "judging". This year, it didn't become an issue, thank goodness...)

I have seen a flyer allowed ro restart and finish the pattern without loss of pattern points. I think this justifiable in the OTS rules. Reread Ted's posting of the ways in which you can lose pattern points. You lose pattern points if you do a maneuver out of sequence. You do not lose pattern point if your engine quits in the middle of the outside loops. If your airplane had executed the landing maneuver, it would be out of sequence; you would lose pattern points and the flight would be over. However, you did not loose pattern points, therefore your airplane did not do a landing maneuver to get on the ground. After a safety check, I see no reason you should not be allowed to attempt to complete the pattern with in the 8 minutes. I would do the safety check off the clock.

In considering OTS rules, keep in mind that we are all mentally constipated by flying under the modern PA rules. A little dose of mental castor oil is in order.

Hear! Hear! to both Ted and Jim. Let's fly and have fun. If you want to have lots of nitty gritty details in the rules, go fly F2D combat!! Or maybe we could add requirements like "the pilot must scratch his left elbow with his right hand after completing one level lap before starting the next maneuver." Or, "the pilot must wear a shirt with 6 green buttons on it. Five of the buttoms must be showing. If, during the course of the flight, but before the 8 minute flight time has expired, the six buttom shows above the belt no points will be scored until the shirt is properly tucked in. No pattern points will be awarded if the sixth button is showing while a maneuver is being flown."

Reading the 1952 rules today…the sections flight pattern and Precision flight points STATE…”Maneuver are accomplished on the first attempt and in proper sequence then states one full lap of normal flight as illustrated and shall be used as the basis for judging maneuvers”.

So as a judge. SIX loops is out of proper sequence as illustrated.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-04 AT 02:13 PM (CDT)
 
Scott, Keith, Ted, et al (... Al who?...)
(... a bit late into this one. Server out for a few days..)

The 1951-52 AMA Pattern and OTS, as GSCB got it going, are different. AMA 51-52 sometimes describes exits as scored parts of maneuvers. Occasional score 'narratives' give quality point values. AMA 51-52 also counted appearance points in the score.

I can't count the number of times I've heard comment that in OTS we don't score exits... and of course, no appearance points in OTS.

Example of exit description: --not exact wording, but roughly--(If "whipped-over" to enter Inverted} "... model recovers to upright flight by a turn not above in 45º height, without mushing or stalling..."

Example of quality point values: Landing - smooth descent/no bounce -max value; Bounce - reduced value; bounce and lands in other than upright attitude on its wheels - yet another reduced value.

If our OTS tradition is to NOT consider exits AFTER the required elements have been completed, let's all agree to that. Six, seven, eight, however many Insides, Outsides, Inverted laps, Eights the flier wants to do... Fine, but doesn't it get a bit silly?

Another much discussed OTS topic: I, and apparently some others, prefer to see ONLY the specified number of repetitions! That is, the point of entry marks the point of exit as soon as the required number of <whatever> have been completed. IOW, if five (round) loops are specified, more or fewer do NOT present the figure described in the rules. (Remember, this is IMHO...)

A fudge item for rounds and Inverted -- Inside Round Loops are naturals, in the direction of the flight path. Outside Rounds are not -- need a deviation to make entry and exit/recovery possible.

Inverted Flight -- Same, but note!: If ONLY the REQUIRED TWO laps is correct, start point for scoring is where the model levels off inverted. Scoring continues ONLY until the model reaches that start point inverted the second time. Recovery to upright flight is begun before a third inverted lap is completed.

So, I'd score the maneuver elements until the figure is complete, per the rules. If extra reps are added, I think pattern points are forfeit, without reduction of the score for the required elements because of the extra(s). Remember the idea is -- all figures, completed correctly, in proper sequence, until the flight ends.

If an Event Director I'm judging for says different, hey, that day I work for him, not against him. Without special guidance, I'll go with my preferred approach, though.

\BEST\LOU

SNIP>>>>Example of quality point values: Landing - smooth descent/no bounce -max value; Bounce - reduced value; bounce and lands in other than upright attitude on its wheels - yet another reduced value.

The glide to touch down is not scored in OTS. Only when wheels touch and Roll to stop.

The '52 rules state you lose pattern points
>only if you "...neglect to attempt a maneuver, omit one,
>accomplishe one in other than the proper sequence, or
>attempt maneuvers after 8 minutes (or time allowed for
>multi-motored models)."
>
----------Big Snip---------------------------

If the Contestant performed 5 inside loops, then the manuever ended at the end of the 5th loop. If he does one more loop, he has performed a manuever out of sequence. ( an inside loop rather than an outside loop.)

No Pattern points.

>If the Contestant performed 5 inside loops, then the manuever ended at the end of the 5th loop. If he does one more loop, he has performed a manuever out of sequence. ( an inside loop rather than an outside loop.)

>No Pattern points.

Sounds logical to me and I would like to correct my earlier post to the effect that there is no controversy over awarding pattern points.

As a matter of equity, a contestant must be penalized when he/she does an incorrect number of loops(or 8s). Doing so, within the old time rules, as De has interpreted them seems highly desirable and a loss of pattern points is more desirable than docking maneuver points, especially considering that old time loop points are lower than 8 or inside square points.

Back at the 1947 Nats, the C/L Stunt pattern was not the same as the current OTS pattern. For one thing, there were no vertical 8s or overhead 8s. Probably because not many planes could manage overhead maneuvers. There was also a thing called "Pair of Spectacles", whatever that was.

Now here's where 6 (or more) loops WOULD count! After flying the required pttern, a contestant could elect to fly another "special" flight, wherein "tricks" could earn an additional 25 points. We saw such things as touch-and-go, Sabre-Dance, multiple inside or outside loops, flying 2 planes at once, etc. Any serious flyer HAD to make the "special" flight in order to compete and win.

I think I flew my first C/L contest in '49 or '50. By then, the now familiar OTS pattern was in place.

Interesting!
I still favor, and hope others have read De Hill's analysis and interpretation of "maneuvers flown in proper sequence" per the current old time rules.
De has quite a bit of experience judging old time and has a lot of interest in the old time event and I consider his input quite valuable. Again, it defy's logic that a competitor may do any number of maneuvers(above the minimum required) without penalty, no matter how much fun everybody is having.
OTS judges, please note.

I'm with Dee.

See Ya