Bob Palmer's Original Thunderbird

LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-04 AT 05:04 PM (CDT)
 
Bob Palmer's Original Thunderbird 1959 National Winner of 1st Place open stunt design. Veco kit.
Wing span 56"
Wing area 610 sq. in.
Fuselage 36" long
Veco 35 engine mounted upside down.

Why is the Brodak kit design different???
Wing span 54"
Wing area 569 sq. in.
Fuselage 33.75" long
Fox 35 engine mounted upright.

Does anyone know any reason one design would be better or worse than the other?

The Bob Palmer original has a lead out design I have never seen before. Very nice idea I will try this on the next airplane that I build.

There were actually 2 different Thunderbirds kitted by Veco. The inverted engine kit was the Thunderbird II which used differential flaps and over and under leadouts at the wing tip. The version kitted by Brodak is indeed the "original" design for the Thunderbird. Palmer says the Thunderbird II was his favorite. Most people did not like the differential flaps and I believe a poll would favor the original.
Steve
The older I get, the better I used to fly!

LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-04 AT 06:53 PM (CDT)
 
Rumor has it that this weekend at BRODAK's, Tom Dixon is flying a T-Bird with differential flaps, only the other way around from the way Palmer inteded, to make up for the flap span/tip weight situation. Leave it to Tom! What a wild man! I understand that it fit's Tom's rather smooth/slow lap time flying style very well, and scored well too.

Speaking of BRODAK's, someone ought to start a thread with some news from the contest soon.
(I hope I hope)

>Rumor has it that this weekend at BRODAK's, Tom Dixon is
>flying a T-Bird with differential flaps, only the other way
>around from the way Palmer inteded, to make up for the flap
>span/tip weight situation. Leave it to Tom! What a wild
>man! I understand that it fit's Tom's rather smooth/slow
>lap time flying style very well, and scored well too.
>
>Speaking of BRODAK's, someone ought to start a thread with
>some news from the contest soon.
>(I hope I hope)
>
>Eric Viglione

Tom indeed was going to bring his differential flapped T-bird. Tom would also probably comment that differential flaps working in reverse to what Palmer used wasn't his idea. I believe the late Ed Southwick mentioned this first in the Skylark article, it may have been practised by somebody even before that.

BTW, Tom's latest airplanes only sound slow-put a stopwatch on them sometime and you'll see that they actually are pretty average when it comes to lap time-I've typically clocked his Avanti 60 at a 5.1 sec/lap. Those DS motors really lug down and sound like they are barely turning over, but thats a bit deceptive. He runs very low RPMs and very high pitch.

So my "Fox .90 Stunt" idea wasn't completely off the wall, then...

Tom Dixon won classic at vsc one year using a thunderbird II with a fox 40.
Tom had an approx. 1"x4" clear plastic tab attached to the outboard flap.
He told me that the plane was terrible until he put this tab on the plane,s outboard flap.
I saw Bob Palmer,s Thunderbird II and it had the inboard flap
Trimmed the entire length
lets see, Make the inboard flap smaller,or, the outboard flap bigger, or, put a tab on the outboard flap,or, make the the outboard flap move more than the inboard flap.
Any similar action here?
Why would we need more outboard lift?
Could it be the inboard wing is too long an has too much lift.
Gee you got me .
Is somebody gonna suggest putting lead in the tip of the inboard wing?
I hope not.

>Is somebody gonna suggest putting lead in the tip of the
>inboard wing?
>I hope not.

Sounds like somebody is trying to stir things up!

I have both. The II, mine without differential flaps, is the better of the two, I think.

I like the looks of the earlier version, plus the ease of starting an upright engine.

Foxes on both. An OS 35-S or Brodak 40 would be a better choice on the larger T-bird.

There also is yet a third model, the Little T-Bird, with a 46" span, also with inverted engine. An OS 25 FP would work well here. This is the rarest of the three kits, and never really caught on, since it was released in the mid 60s, after the CL boom period.

...>There also is yet a third model, the Little T-Bird, with a 46" span, also with inverted engine. An OS 25 FP would work well here. This is the rarest of the three kits, and never really caught on, since it was released in the mid 60s, after the CL boom period.
>>Currell

Bob English drew a great set of plans for the Little T-Bird. If I remember correctly, the kit plans were only an exploded isometric view.

Who kits the little t-bird??
Matt

>Who kits the little t-bird??
>Matt
Larry Richards does a great kit of the Little T-bird. Much better wood than Veco ever used and everything fits. His web site is:
http://www.richardskits.net/

Steve
The older I get, the better I used to fly!

The '59 T'Bird is the Mark II with differential flaps. I liked the flaps and I won two UK Nats with them. The original T'Bird dates from about '55 and Bob never built one with the cowl as in the Veco kit. All his models had an uncowled engine, including the trike-geared version.
I think that Brodak are muddying the water considerably by calling their kit the 'Original Thunderbird', like they did with the 'Original Nobler'.

I may be wrong (often am) but I remember seeing a picture of Bob at
either the 54 or 55 nats with a fully cowled T-Bird that he flew.
and part of the caption was that it flew rather fast.

I seem to recall period photos of Bob holding a cowled first gen Bird, presumably his.

Walter, Currell,
Is this the one?
http://www.iroquois.free-online.co.uk/memoirs/tbird.htm

I have seen this radial one before, but I had a standard T-Bird cowl in mind. Maybe I was mistaken.

Nope, It was in either M.A.N. or Air Trails? and was part of the Nats coverage of that year. I've got the Magazine some where in my
collection.

Walter:+

...I think that Brodak are muddying the water considerably by calling their kit the 'Original Thunderbird', like they did with the 'Original Nobler'.

Dave,
If I have the story straight, the Top Flite Nobler was designed by George from memory. Top Flite then made changes to fit their production methods. The one Brodak makes evolved from plans drawn up by George using the original Nobler to make patterns. George insisted it be a copy of the original without manufacturing changes.
I understand Bob Palmer put his blessings on the Brodak Thunderbird in a similar fashion.
From what I've read, John Brodak took great effort in producing as close to the original as possible for both of those.
Just another opinion.

Hi George,
Yep. In a phone conversation with George once, and a couple of face to face conversations, he said that he drew both the '52 MAN plans and the Top Flite Green Box Nobler from memory. He did draw the Brodak plans from his crashed original '52 plane.
Mr. Palmer was at the Brodak Fly In last year, and verified the Brodak turtle deck T-Bird and Smoothie as correct.
I find it very interesting as to how many variations the original designers produced of their planes and how much they were usually modified if they were produced as kits.
According to Dave Hemstrought, there were several changes to his
PT-19 when Midwest put out the kit.
Bill <><

Re the T-Bird cowl: Go to ebay 5905621396.

Which cowl design is on the model Palmer is holding in the box art?

Maybe 'muddying' has different meanings in the US and UK.