WC - Chinese Team?

Read in a newsgroup that the Chinese team was denied a Visa to attend/participate. Anyone here have the skinny?

>Read in a newsgroup that the Chinese team was denied a Visa
>to attend/participate. Anyone here have the skinny?
>
>Dennis

What newsgroup? I have check other sites and find nothing to cofirm or deny your story.

grzly (Tom McLain) writes:

>What newsgroup? I have check other sites and find nothing
>to cofirm or deny your story.

rec.models.rc.air, Tom.

Could you please explain how I can get setup to rec. newsproup nessages?

Thanks

Bigs

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

go to www.google.com;

search on newsgroups;

select Google Groups;

select .rec;

select .rec.models;

select .rec.models.rc;

select.rec.models.rc.air;

type what a shame in the search window and choose "search only in .rec.models.rc.air";

And the thread is there under the title What A Shame.

Regards,

From: [email protected] (Shin Gou)
Date: Sunday, July 4, 2004, 11:00 AM
Subject: What a shame

For those of you who are interested in the 2004 FAI World Control Line
Aeromodelling Championships, the Chinese team couldn't make it this
time because they couldn't get the US visa.

The Chinese team has been the world champions in F2B consecutively
since 1994. Their winning history in this class can be traced back to
1984 except '86 by USSR and '92 by the US. check the link:
http://www.control-line.org/DesktopDefault.aspx?tabid=59

But their consecutive championships will STOP in this session.
Is there any control line fan at State Department or the US embassy in
Beijing? Anyway, good trick, well done. Congradulations to you, the
F2B champion this year.

Shin Gou

--

Paul McIntosh wrote:

WHY couldn't they get a visa? Did their team manager not apply in time?

Alas most certainly because national paranoia and 'security concerns' means there is a six month backlog.

--

From: [email protected] (Shin Gou)
Date: Monday, July 5, 2004, 8:29 AM
Subject: Re: What a shame

Is there any Chinese applicant who dares to play fool with the US visa
officers? They do whatever the visa officers want them to do--only
faster and better.

I guess none of you here have ever applied a visa, so let me tell you
what's going on in the barbarian world outside the fortress of the
secure homeland.

I talked to the Chinese team leader and he told me they made the visa
interview appointment one month ahead and was schdeuled to July 2, one
day before the game (the embassy makes the call on the interview date,
Chinese applicants--you get a pencil and write it down and listen
carefully because I won't repeat, and yes, the embassy knew the
Chinese team's itinerary.) Still the team bought the tickets for July
3, only wishing they wouldn't miss too much in the competition and
would do well in jet lag. The team leader told me in the interview
the visa officer asked him what the group would be doing in the US,
how many people in the group and then denied him. If a naive applicant
wants to ask the deny reason, he will be given a uniform paper saying
"this applicant shows an immigration tendency" (I don't have this
piece of paper in hand, but it's the exact meaning.) If the applicant
is even more naive to try to argue, the visa officer will immediately
call security guard. The team's paperworks and documents and whatever
on the requiremet list were all well prepared, but the team leader
said the visa officer didn't take a look at any of them.

I know many people here would say that is just the story from the
team's side, but I will say, THAT IS the story because I've heard many
many (too many) such stories from people I don't know and from my
closest friend, and this story isn't the worst one.

Maybe next time you travel to the exotic far east, after the great
wall and forbidden city you can go to the US embassy and look at
people's faces there, and maybe you will ask, which naive stupid said
all human are born equal?

Sorry if my post goes too far away from the aeromodelling.

------

That is the gist of the newsgroup thread.

There were a lot more posts but they devolved rapidly into discussions of terrorism, communism, security, freedom and various other issues about which the posters mostly said "hooray for our side", to borrow a phrase from Buffalo Springfield.

When all was said and done about who ought to keep whom out of where for why, the only meat in the thread was the above which would indicate that the complexities of both the Chinese and US governments in getting the appropriate visas issued required far longer to get through than was left when the Chinese team manager allowed for. So it's anywhere from his fault to the fault of the current international situation, depending upon how you want to look at it.

For what it's worth.

Cy

>Could you please explain how I can get setup to rec.
>newsproup nessages?
>
>Thanks
>
>Bigs

You'd need a newsgroup (often called Usenet) reader. One comes bundled with MS Outlook Express as well as Netscape Communicator. From there, you'd have to get the name of your ISP's newsgroup server. Just plug the info in, download the group of available newsgroups then select those which you'd like to subscribe to.

I saw that too. If what the posters write is true, the Chinese waited until one month ago to apply for their visas. Don't know for sure, but that seems to be cutting it awfully close, considering how things are now.

Regards,

Wow...

Whatever happned, it's a real shame.

Now we'll never know who's best.

Bigs

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

Maybe the results of the last 5 world champs/10 years might just give the slightest hint!

Ask Igor Burger about the fun & games in getting a visa.

>Maybe the results of the last 5 world champs/10 years might
>just give the slightest hint!

!

>Ask Igor Burger about the fun & games in getting a visa.

Igor made it just fine, and probably has as many flights as anyone. As did many other competitors from many nations.

Whether anyone cares to recognize it, or thinks it's stupid, or not, we are in the middle of a war. Travelling during wartime might reasonably be expected to be somewhat difficult. After people travelling on false and misleading visas killed 2900-some-odd of our citizens, it would not seem unwarranted to check more carefully. Particularly when the traveller is from a long-term adversary nation such as China. Thus it would make a lot of sense to start early, and certainly not wait until a month before as is rumored to have happened.

I think it's somewhat ambiguous whether the Chinese made it, or not. I heard that they were at the opening ceremonies. Certainly, every accomodation was being made to allow for them to process in late if necessary, and to alter their group/draw to allow for more preparation time.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-05-04 AT 10:04 PM (CDT)
 
In cases like this, the big guns usually get called in. Namely, the Chinese Foreign Service. So there's quite a bit of hope yet. The denial of the visas was made on the grounds that the Chinese would be likely to want to STAY in the US ("immigration tendencies"), not because they had any ties to terrorists.

The last big brouhaha like this on Usenet between the Chinese and Americans was when the Chinese fighter collided with the US "spy" (er, reconnaissance) plane a few years ago. It got pretty ugly pretty quickly, and soon spread outside Usenet, with hackers on both sides defacing web pages, etc. This one's limited to the modelling newsgroup, so it's a lot smaller.

If they don't make it, it'll really be a shame - I, as much as anyone else, wants to read the online assessments people here are going to make about the Chinese fliers.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-04 AT 12:39 PM (CDT)
 
>If they don't make it, it'll really be a shame - I, as much
>as anyone else, wants to read the online assessments people
>here are going to make about the Chinese fliers.

No poop.

This was one of the main reasons I was going to watch. I wanted to see these soft flying, oversized pattern, Chinese fliers who everyone hints that we should be beating. (there must be something to these guys, right?)

Also, I wanted to see Paul fly "chinese" better than the Chinese.

Hi Brett,
I think Igors problems were mostly associated with his NAC, that's what I read from correspondence, anyway.

W/champs entrants were more than adequately advised that visas could be a (appropriately) lengthy process - if the application was made only 30 days before departure - well, thats taking a risk, a big one!

Any chance of confirming the Chinese teams presence?

>Hi Brett,
>I think Igors problems were mostly associated with his NAC,
>that's what I read from correspondence, anyway.
>
>W/champs entrants were more than adequately advised that
>visas could be a (appropriately) lengthy process - if the
>application was made only 30 days before departure - well,
>thats taking a risk, a big one!

There are many rumors around, and that was by far the most plausible. I guarantee the state department doesn't give a pea turkey poop about the W/C - in fact, putting "Model Airplane World Chamopinship" in a "reason for visit" probably sounds so absurd that it has got to draw attention.

>
>Any chance of confirming the Chinese teams presence?
>

We'll know soon enough. The rumor was that some could be in as late as tomorrow night. There are many bizarre aspects to the W/C, one which is that the draw may or may not be posted - or it may only be given to team managers. They would show up on the flight order if they are present, and if they show up for their slot, then we would know. Otherwise, I have no idea how to find out.

Everybody wants them here - because everyone wants a crack at them, and no "asterisks".

All I know is that Ted drew #1 on group one, so I have to get out there around 6:30 AM tomorrow morning - and thus need to stop typing, and start sleeping!

Thanks for the update - & good luck!
Cheers, Dave

Just got this email from Muncie.....

"The Chinese team has been delayed because of visa problems
with the good old US of A Goverment. They are in transit
from Beijing to Chicago at this moment, landing on Tue
morning. Will fly in the comp tomorrow if they can get here
in time and get processed before their flight slot comes up."

Hope all goes well, wish I could be there......

Un-filtered garbage is why I personally stay away from the Hell that is Usenet.

No real good comes from that area.

It didn't use to be that way. There was a time when rec.models.rc was a great place to hang out. Unfortunately, there are just plain too many people now, and it's sort of become the focal point for a number of whiners who go on and on about some pet peeve or another. We have them here, too, but not huge numbers of them.

Yes, I am in Muncie and our visa is OK. We checked what exactly is necessary to fulfill and we did it as we have been informed. I think your embassy informs and performs correctly. The only problem is, that it needs LOT of information, which was difficult to collect, or too deep like cash flow on my account or even very close to secret info from my military service (I mean beside those tons of trivial questions like size of my shoes or color of my tooth brush ). But the major problem was exact address including contact phone number where we will stay in US, as we did not know hotel (which was not ordered and paid by NAC as we did not have visa yet). So after all we solved it by letter from Steve saying the destination address is AMA. Unfortunatelly he was somehow busy so we got the letter only few days before interview and that made us some inpatient days. I also affraided that I will have personal problem with my son who was still in US and my wife is traveling with me, but after all everything was fine.

However that all we knew far before our travel and we also knew WHEN we will be called to the interview. We could even order wanted time by Internet. I think those problem of Chinese team is that they just did it too late. We ordered air tickets and started collecting data for visa half year ago. I really do not know how they can let such a thing to such a late time.

LAST EDITED ON Jul-06-04 AT 04:45 PM (CDT)
 
Hmmm...

Len's getting a lot more aggressive about this nonsense of his. This post alone has three "missing" responses, Howard's was first up, I was second, don't know who was number 21.

I regard this as rude conduct at worst, poor hosting at best.

Am I the only one who sees these unsolicited acts from Len as being the equivalent to yelling "Shut up!"?

>Hmmm...
>
>Len's getting a lot more aggressive about this nonsense of
>his. This post alone has three "missing" responses, Howard's
>was first up, I was second, don't know who was number 21.
>
>I regard this as rude conduct at worst, poor hosting at
>best.
>
>Am I the only one who sees these unsolicited acts from Len
>as being the equivalent to yelling "Shut up!"?
>
>Dan

Thanks for asking Dan, I thought for a moment senility was overtaking me faster than I realized. Several posts have apparently been deleted even before I had a chance to read them.

Yes, I'd call it yelling "shut up" - or, maybe more appropriately, "if you don't see it my way, I'm gonna take my marbles and go home".

Dennis,
not quite that senile yet

>Thanks for asking Dan, I thought for a moment senility was
>overtaking me faster than I realized. Several posts have
>apparently been deleted even before I had a chance to read
>them.
>
>Yes, I'd call it yelling "shut up" - or, maybe more
>appropriately, "if you don't see it my way, I'm gonna take
>my marbles and go home".
>
>Dennis,
>not quite that senile yet
>

No, it is not me that takes the marbles and goes home. It is Dan that takes his marbles and goes elsewhere.

>Hmmm...
>
>Len's getting a lot more aggressive about this nonsense of
>his. This post alone has three "missing" responses, Howard's
>was first up, I was second, don't know who was number 21.
>
>I regard this as rude conduct at worst, poor hosting at
>best.
>
>Am I the only one who sees these unsolicited acts from Len
>as being the equivalent to yelling "Shut up!"?
>
>Dan

Dan, I am through with your bickering and complaining about how I opoerate this forum. Your comments were in bad taste to someone who is a guest in our country. They are not representative of what we are trying to do as host country to a world's competiton. Thus, you were deleted.

I have already had to delete you twice on another thread because of your constant bickering. One more complaint about how I operate this forum and you are out of here!

I'm afraid I have to agree with Leonard. It's not only his forum, it's a forum about model airplanes, not politics.

I personally regret every political discussion I have ever entered into here, and will do my best to avoid doing so in the future. Every time we get started, it ends up a real drag.

There are so many non-political things about model airplanes that we can discuss. Let's do so!

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"A life spent in making mistakes is not only more honorable but more useful than a life spent doing nothing." -George Benard Shaw

I agree.

Nuff said.

Bigs

" What constitutes the dignity of a craft is that it creates a fellowship, that it binds men together and fashions for them a common language. For there is but one problem - the problem of human relations."

>Dan, I am through with your bickering and complaining about how I opoerate this forum. Your comments were in bad taste to someone who is a guest in our country. They are not representative of what we are trying to do as host country to a world's competiton. Thus, you were deleted.

>I have already had to delete you twice on another thread because of your constant bickering. One more complaint about how I operate this forum and you are out of here!

>Leonard Neumann

...no snips...

To All Who Care,

My comments, deleted by Len so you can't read them, were in no way in bad taste. Nor were the (also deleted) comments from Rush in bad taste. I have no idea what the third fellow said, or even who it was.

The last paragraph really says quite a lot, does it not?

I read both comments and I have to agree with Leonard's decision to delete them. The comments definitely lacked simple courtesy and respect for fellow modellers from another country.

Thank you Leonard for erasing this temporary lack of judgement from history.

Eric Lee

ELee,
You cannot erase anything from history.

All I can see that Leonard has left up that offends me is the USA bashing about how inept the Customs and State Department officials are, and how we might see, (when we visit the great socialist/communist state of China on vacation sometime), that the US Embassy personell are somehow genetically inferior. To who? Probably the poster.

As for Dan's politically incorrect behavior: Gee, I kind of remember when the Russian team was sent to Washington D.C. for the '89 Richland, WA Nats, (talk about inept government, and I mean the USSR in case you need a map for this, and I mean "map" figuratively, in case...), that Dirt and company flew to DC, picked up the team and drove their whole bunch from D.C. to eastern Washinton in a couple of rented Lincoln Towncars. Yeah, Dan is a regular hateful guy.

Get real gentleman, the Chinese made their own problems.

cwmcmillin writes:

>Get real gentleman, the Chinese made their own problems.
>
>Chris McMillin

Amen! That says it all...

Dennis,
tired of USA-bashing

LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-04 AT 05:46 PM (CDT)
 
My comment about courtesy and respect only applies to the Chinese modellers. That is totaly independent of their government and its policies.

Please don't misintepret that as US bashing.

I think the part about US bashing was in the next to last paragraph of the clip from UsNetHell. That and there is another thread where someone was complaining about the Chinese still having problems with the customs of the 'Good old US of A' like it's our fault that they waited till the last minute to get Visas and travel in our country.

I was watching 'Airline' on cable the other day and it amazes me the amount of people who have the audacity to show up at the airport with 20 minutes to go on a flight, drunk and dis-orderly and then complain about the airline. Well I doubt the Chinese team was drunk and dis-orderly, but I would have worked arangements out at least half a year in advance. I took a week family trip to Chicago last year and I had it nailed together 2 months in advance, that was only to Chicago with minimal luggage.

Sounds like the showing up with 20 minutes to go is international.

Hope it all turns out ok for them. Remember to get em out to a Walmart and grocery store, get em all those decadent things that helped bring down USSR.

Freedom baby, its a good thing.

ELee writes:

>My comment about courtesy and respect only applies to the
>Chinese modellers. That is totaly independent of their
>government and its policies.
>
>Please don't misintepret that as US bashing.

Eric, I don't. I'm referring to the original newsgroup post and several subsequent posts, which were clearly "I hate America" in tone.

wcrane writes:

>Sounds like the showing up with 20 minutes to go is
>international.

William, surely you jest! At least if you meant "20 minutes before a deadline" ...

I managed an interpreting business in Minneapolis, working with the Somali refugee community. And had to constantly explain to our clients - almost all health care providers - that (1) You don't make an appointment to see a doctor in Somalia, you just go, and (2) Being sociable is so much more important that if you leave in the morning to see one but meet a cousin or friend along the way, you take your time visiting and postpone the appointment to another day if that person wants to have a long talk.

That said, the Somalis I worked with love America and continually expressed their amazement that many people born here don't appreciate it more ...

Dennis

>wcrane writes:
>
>
>
>>Sounds like the showing up with 20 minutes to go is
>>international.
>
>
>
>William, surely you jest! At least if you meant "20 minutes
>before a deadline" ...
>
>I managed an interpreting business in Minneapolis, working
>with the Somali refugee community. And had to constantly
>explain to our clients - almost all health care providers -
>that (1) You don't make an appointment to see a doctor in

OK, this is all well intentioned, but it has gone far enough. I think that everyone who needed to vent their spleen has done so. If you haven't, my regrets, but the this thread is closing out. Time to lock the thread and go onto other topics more related to Control Line.

If you disagree, please let Leonard know. When he gets back from the Nats he can reopen the thread if he wants. Until then, it is closed.

V/r

Bob Kruger