Anti-seize compound

Combat fliers who use Nelson plugs use anti-seize compound to keep the threads from galling, and to keep the plugs from getting stuck. After having had a couple of stuck plugs in one day, I decided to get some. Easier said than done - have a look at www.mcmaster.com, search for "anti-seize". You'll find that there are many, many types. The type I can most easily get around here contains copper and graphite. It's supposed to be the standard, high temperature variety. Is this OK to use around glow plugs? I'm thinking it'd also be good for screw on Cox/Galbreath/Norvel (glow) heads.

There's another type with no copper, but with moly and graphite, but it's not "high temperature".

I have used that stuff for years as a Diesel Mech and the silver stuff will do fine. I used it on the head bolts/exhaust manifold bolts and trust me, they get much hotter than any toy airplane engine!!

See response number 8. That is the stuff I'm refering to. Permatex. Gittin old, mind is goin.

Which is the silver stuff? I don't see any silver-based anti-seize compounds listed on McMaster-Carr - do you mean the Moly-based ones? There's also stainless steel-based, nickel-based, lead-based, aluminum-based, PTFE-based, metal free... (yeah, really confusing).

Did you ever use the copper-based stuff? McMaster-Carr says its good to 2000 deg. F, the moly stuff to 650 deg. F. I've only found the moly and the copper based stuff here so far.

>Combat fliers who use Nelson plugs use anti-seize compound
>to keep the threads from galling, and to keep the plugs from
>getting stuck. After having had a couple of stuck plugs in
>one day, I decided to get some. Easier said than done - have
>a look at www.mcmaster.com, search for "anti-seize". You'll
>find that there are many, many types. The type I can most
>easily get around here contains copper and graphite. It's
>supposed to be the standard, high temperature variety. Is
>this OK to use around glow plugs? I'm thinking it'd also be
>good for screw on Cox/Galbreath/Norvel (glow) heads.
>
>There's another type with no copper, but with moly and
>graphite, but it's not "high temperature".

Ron B.
F4Fguy

On aluminum to steel go with the moly/graphite.The temp isn't really all that high.Our engines run head temps of 350-450 deg.F,not like the temps of a V8 manifold to head interface which can get to 1450 deg.F. I,ve seen engines on dyno with the exhaust manifold glowing bright yellow/orange.

The problem with copper bearing antisieze in this application is galvanic corrosion which will ,under the right conditions,cause the
threads to go away faster than using nothing at all.The best anti- sieze for aluminum/aluminum or aluminum/iron that we ever found in our lab was a mixture of zinc powder and Crisco at about 1:1 by volume,with as much additional as would go into suspension.

In my experience the primary cause of thread failure in heads and plugs,is dirt.The second is poor manufacturing,and third is mis-handling during manufacture. The cure for all these conditions is to do a cleanup pass on them with a good,high quality,sharp,tap and die. After this operation you should not have problems with plug sticking.When installing a plug,run the plug too bottom
with fingers as tight as you can,then put the wrench on and turn it'til you just feel resistance then 1/4to 1/2turns more.Overtighting can also cause excessive stress on threads,leading to thread failure,and bonding with the head threads, makng them gall on removal.If after all this,it still sticks,try the zinc compound.I KNOW it works. I've also had experience with the copper loaded stuff.We lost two very expensive preproduction Mazda engines to galvanic corrosion between the two aluminum housings and the three iron ones(Mazda and our top brass was not amused).

Really all you need is good threads on both parts and proper tightening.

Ron B.
p.s.:Edit required due to late hour at which the original was written.

OK, thanks - I'll get the Moly lube, in that case. Don't know what the deal is with Nelson plugs, but I had stuck plugs on two different engines on the same day. A real pain to remove (on one, the head button started rotating under the clamp). I've never had a stuck conventional plug. Maybe it's the added diameter. I don't know if one should tighten a Nelson plug by turning it very much after seating it with the fingers, since it seats on the end taper rather than on a gasket. Tightens pretty suddenly. People who use Nelson plugs always tell others to use the anti-seize, I didn't have any so I simply squirted a little fuel in the hole before threading the plug in.

It's a pain finding anything around here - there's no McMaster Carr, and there's all sorts of things one takes for granted (such as dowels) that one can't find. There's a lot of stuff one CAN get, but it's tucked away in some little shop somewhere in some remote part of town, and the guy on the phone only speaks Chinese. Finding a drill press was an adventure. A friend tells me I can get almost anything to do with composites (honeycomb, epoxies, fillers, carbon, you name it) but you have to find the one little shop that sells the darned stuff.

When I was in A&P school back in the 80's my Powerplant course instructor, ( old school guy - knew everything you wanted to know about recips, pressre carbs, etc. ) taught me that you can use Phillips Milk of Magnesia for anti-sieze. I have used it a couple time on automotive applications, no adverse effects, I never used iton a model engine, but it might be worth a try.

Locally the N A P A stores handle anti-sieze in small tubes, that is where I get mine.. The silver stuff is actually nickel not silver..
Hope that this helps.......
Gil

Champion aircraft products, spark plug thread lube.

http://www.aeroperform.com/aircraftparts/2612.asp

>
> Locally the N A P A stores handle anti-sieze in small
>tubes, that is where I get mine.. The silver stuff is
>actually nickel not silver..
> Hope that this helps.......
> Gil

SAY WHAT????Nickel. better take alook

When I assemble engines I use the Permatex nickel-based anti-seize lube.
I put it on glow plug threads once (conventional, non-Nelson). After thinking about it for a while, and before running the engine, I removed as much of the compound as I could. It occured to me that the anit-seize would escape the threads and find it's way into the combustion chamber. I envisaged those tiny metal particles lapping the piston and liner to a new, more relaxed fit. Was I hallucinating?
Derek Moran

Product you are seeking is called "Never-Seez", have used it for years and it is first class. manufactured by Never-Seez Compound Corp, 2910 S. 18th Ave, Broadview, ILL, 60153 (Suburb of Chicago)

"White Lead" powder suspended in oil. We used this in the shipyards until our supply was gone, in the late '70's, long after the EPA banned it. There is nothing better, they said. I think a graphite paste would work fine, for your use. Steve

I was thinking lead might poison the platinum in the plug. I think McMaster Carr still lists a lead-based anti-seize. Not sure it's something I'd want to use, however. The nickel sounds good, if it were only available easily.

Wish there was anything like a NAPA here. Maybe I should take a picture of the auto parts store near where I live, to give you an idea of what they tend to look like here... a shophouse lot with a counter thrown across the front, inside piled high with stuff, belts hanging from the ceiling, and a bunch of freelance mechanics working on engines and stuff outside in the street. There used to be a big metal cage on wheels with a four foot long iguana inside it up front (the boss's pet, no doubt) but it dissapeared a few weeks ago. At least, they do tend to collect all the used engine oil and antifreeze, and don't just dump in in the (open) storm drain.

ANTI SEIZE.
Petroleum Oil
Graphite Powder
Aluminum Powder
Protects to 2000 degrees
Does not contain clay or is not a soap base
Great for Preventing corrosion, Friction, Galling.

And is great for putting on CAR DOOR HANDLES when people park to close and you can't get in your car...

The BEST I ever used is Dynatex. Nickel has to many problems. Not compatable with iron or steel.
Copper base anti seize is also very good. You can also get in a mix of 50% Copper and 50% Aluminum.
ANY auto store, Home Depot, Lowes...

>ANTI SEIZE.
>Petroleum Oil
>Graphite Powder
>Aluminum Powder
>Protects to 2000 degrees
>Does not contain clay or is not a soap base
>Great for Preventing corrosion, Friction, Galling.
>
>And is great for putting on CAR DOOR HANDLES when people
>park to close and you can't get in your car...
>
>The BEST I ever used is Dynatex. Nickel has to many
>problems. Not compatable with iron or steel.
>Copper base anti seize is also very good. You can also get
>in a mix of 50% Copper and 50% Aluminum.
>ANY auto store, Home Depot, Lowes...

Ron B.
F4Fguy

I say again,do not use copper (or aluminum) with aluminum ,especially between iron (steel) and aluminum!

"Never Seez" is fine if you can still get it.

I see Never seize on the job site all the time. HOWEVER, most have gone to Anti-seize compound. Dynatex has No mil spec.
For Navy Use you have to have the Mill spec.

ANYWAY just read the can to make sure that you get the right stuff.

>I see Never seize on the job site all the time. HOWEVER,
>most have gone to Anti-seize compound. Dynatex has No mil
>spec.
>For Navy Use you have to have the Mill spec.
>
>ANYWAY just read the can to make sure that you get the right
>stuff.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

We're NOT in the Navy!!DO NOT USE ANY COPPER BEARING ANTI-SIEZE in contact with ALUMINUM!!!!!

Ron B.
Director of Internal Combustion Engine Research and Development- Reynolds(Aluminum)Metals Company-Retired.

The champion is non metalic, that is what I would use.Either graphite or molly based.

>>I see Never seize on the job site all the time. HOWEVER,
>>most have gone to Anti-seize compound. Dynatex has No mil
>>spec.
>>For Navy Use you have to have the Mill spec.
>>
>>ANYWAY just read the can to make sure that you get the right
>>stuff.
>
>Ron B.
>F4Fguy
>
>We're NOT in the Navy!!DO NOT USE ANY COPPER BEARING
>ANTI-SIEZE in contact with ALUMINUM!!!!!
>
>Ron B.
>Director of Internal Combustion Engine Research and
>Development- Reynolds(Aluminum)Metals Company-Retired.

RON. I'm not disputing anything. I'm just saying there are LOTS of companies out there that carry ANTI-SEIZE. PERSONLY I don’t think we need to use anti-seize on glow plugs. Anti–seize is a messy product and It’s just a hassle to use. I use anti-seize (in this hobby) for bolts in engines that are a little old OR my display engines that I’ll never use. And that’s very seldom. Sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

Scott(Retired Fitter,welder, and Just a good guy)Riese

I thought I would put in a note that Larry Driskill's website, http://kittingittogether.com/, recommends using Permatex anti-seize compound, part number 133a, to keep the Nelson steel plugs from seizing in the aluminum head button (look under Tips and information on the VA 049 MkII).

Several people on the COMBAT-L list mentioned Permatex, so I went over to look at the Permatex web site.

http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?f_call=get_item_list&item_name=Specialty+Lubricants

133A is the one ounce squeeze tubes of the "plain" anti-seize:

http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=81464

rather than the copper-based

http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=09128

or nickel-based:

http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=77164

The "plain" anti-seize does contain copper (maybe I should not use it, but might the aluminum in the compound not protect the aluminum in the head by being "sacrificial"?):

Permatex® Anti-Seize Lubricant

A highly refined blend of aluminum, copper and graphite lubricants. Use during assembly to prevent galling, corrosion and seizing and to assure easier disassembly. Temperature range: -60°F to 1600°F. Salt, corrosion and moisture resistant - ideal for marine use. Non-aerosol version meets Mil Spec #907E. Level 3

Suggested Applications:
For easy removal of spark plugs, cylinder head and exhaust head bolts.

Here are the blurbs for the copper and nickel based ones:

Permatex® Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant

A premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and corrosion inhibitors. Temperature range: -30°F to 1800°F. Provides good electrical conductivity. Meets Mil Spec #907E.

Suggested Applications:
Spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors, thermostat housing bolts, fuel filter fittings, and battery cable connections

Permatex® Nickel Anti-Seize Lubricant

Protects metal parts from seizing and galling at temperatures up to 2400°F. It is recommended where copper contamination must be avoided, under conditions of extreme pressure and temperature, and with stainless steel, titanium and nickel alloys.

Suggested Applications:
N/A

Strangely enough, they specifically mention spark plug threads in aluminum as one application for the copper-based anti-seize. Of course, there is a lot more metal in spark plug threads than in our glow plug threads.

You got it.....

>Several people on the COMBAT-L list mentioned Permatex, so I
>went over to look at the Permatex web site.
>
>http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?f_call=get_item_list&item_name=Specialty+Lubricants
>
>133A is the one ounce squeeze tubes of the "plain"
>anti-seize:
>
>http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=81464
>
>rather than the copper-based
>
>http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=09128
>
>or nickel-based:
>
>http://www.permatex.com/products/prodidx.asp?automotive=yes&f_call=get_item&item_no=77164
>
>The "plain" anti-seize does contain copper (maybe I should
>not use it, but might the aluminum in the compound not
>protect the aluminum in the head by being "sacrificial"?):
>
> Permatex® Anti-Seize Lubricant
>
>A highly refined blend of aluminum, copper and graphite
>lubricants. Use during assembly to prevent galling,
>corrosion and seizing and to assure easier disassembly.
>Temperature range: -60°F to 1600°F. Salt, corrosion and
>moisture resistant - ideal for marine use. Non-aerosol
>version meets Mil Spec #907E. Level 3
>
>Suggested Applications:
>For easy removal of spark plugs, cylinder head and exhaust
>head bolts.
>
>Here are the blurbs for the copper and nickel based ones:
>
>Permatex® Copper Anti-Seize Lubricant
>
>A premium quality copper anti-seize and thread lubricant
>that may be used to prevent seizing, corrosion and galling
>where high temperature conditions exist. Contains a high
>percentage of micro-fine copper flakes in a semi-synthetic
>grease carrier and is fortified with high quality rust and
>corrosion inhibitors. Temperature range: -30°F to 1800°F.
>Provides good electrical conductivity. Meets Mil Spec #907E.
>
>Suggested Applications:
>Spark plug threads installed in aluminum, exhaust manifold
>bolts, engine bolts, oxygen sensors, knock sensors,
>thermostat housing bolts, fuel filter fittings, and battery
>cable connections
>
>Permatex® Nickel Anti-Seize Lubricant
>
>Protects metal parts from seizing and galling at
>temperatures up to 2400°F. It is recommended where copper
>contamination must be avoided, under conditions of extreme
>pressure and temperature, and with stainless steel, titanium
>and nickel alloys.
>
>Suggested Applications:
>N/A
>
>
>
>Strangely enough, they specifically mention spark plug
>threads in aluminum as one application for the copper-based
>anti-seize. Of course, there is a lot more metal in spark
>plug threads than in our glow plug threads.

Ron B.
F4Fguy

I know what the PERMATEX blurbs say,I also know what our long term use testing showed:Extreme intermetallic corrosion of aluminum parts paired with iron or steel with copper bearing antisieze(these ones, among others).We were promoting aluminum engines to the auto industry.It was part of our research to find the best service teghniques and materials.This was one of the areas we tested.I don't doubt the temperature claims, many moly-disulphide and graphite greases will readily withstand the temperature(and also do a pretty good job as an anti-sieze).The problem is separation on the Galvanic scale,and the resulting corrosion.For iron to iron joints or nuts and bolts or studs against iron,this stuff is fine,but not for aluminum.

Ron B.

P.S.:The powders used in these apps are almost always 99/9 AL and highly resistant to attack.The base casting on the other is likely to be highly alloyed making it much more vulnerable.So no, I don't believe the Al powder is sacrificial, and our tests confirmed it.

OK, you've convinced me. I'm staying away from the Cu containing compounds.

McMaster Carr has zinc-based ones, but ordering from them is going to be a pain, so I'll either get the Moly based stuff or look for something zinc or nickel-based or plain graphite based.

I'm wondering if plain old grease might not work just as well to keep the plugs unstuck..

I'm glad I decided to ask this question on this BBS.

Interesting.

I mentioned this to a friend of mine, who is an aircraft mechanic. He says that copper-based antiseize is now banned from use on aircraft.

And NAVY

>Interesting.
>
>I mentioned this to a friend of mine, who is an aircraft
>mechanic. He says that copper-based antiseize is now banned
>from use on aircraft.

He could get you stuff from Champion Spark Plug company.