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Engine Sizes

Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 19 of 19 known posts recovered

Larry F · Nov 03, 2001 09:32 AM

Engine Sizes#0 source
Gang --

Seems like we are rather eclectic here on engine sizes. I am not sure what advice y'all would choose as a good size plane / engine for a sport or semi-competitive flyer.

At the top competition level, no one flies 35s or even 40s anymore. What was the smallest engine that made the top 20 at the Nats? I know the top 5 were all big and piped. I don't know about the others in the top 20, but I suspect it was a number bigger than 40. Big hogs are the rule. Four cycles are creeping in.

Yet the threads here tout the advantage of 25s and .061s on great flying planes. I am not sure how to phrase the question, but, where the heck are we?

Where do you see us going? Is a 40 size plane totally uncompetitive? Would GMA's Fox 35 Nobler get eaten alive by Ted, Brett, and Fitzgerald? I suspect so, but where does that leave us who are neither Ted nor GMA? Should we follow the big boys, build clever smaller 15s or 1/2As, or stick with traditional 35 and 40 stunters?

Larry F

Bob Reeves · Nov 03, 2001 10:09 AM

RE: Engine Sizes#1 source
I am not one of the big guns but I can tell you that a 40 is very competitive at least on a local level. Doug Moon won Expert at a Dallas contest this year with an OS LA 46. I saw a list of the NATS top 20 and what they were running but can't remember if it was in Stunt News or the AMA magazine. Perhaps someone with a better memory than I can point to it. As far as sport / entry level competition.. Fly what you brung

I think what you are seeing in reference to the .25 is that a modern .25 has the power of the old 35's without the shakes and is a great sport / entry level engine.. A Twister size plane with a LA or FP .25 will get you all the way to Advanced so I guess there is no black and white answer to your question. Use whatever works for you.

Bob

Scott Riese · Nov 03, 2001 04:09 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#2 source
Lets put a FOX 35 in an Orential, put the plane IN DON McClave's hand and he will beat 75% of the big guns out there. Don only fly's 35 sized planes, and has a lot of fun ding it. Don is a study in the patern. very consistent. Ted Fancher and his Chilizer, could beat 85% of the big guns. A lot of people can say IT'S 50% plane 50% pilot. WRONG. The pilot has alot to do with the flying of the plane..don't you think. So but I'm beening funny here because a well built 35 sized plane in the right hands IS so fun to watch fly...and BEAT the BIG GUNS.

Steve Helmick · Nov 03, 2001 09:22 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#7 source
I think what is right for you depends somewhat on your wallet and also what your flying field and weather is like. If you fly in a cow pasture, you need a tougher, smaller model, but if you fly from a good field in a windy part of the country, you need to use a .40 or .46. The cost of the engines isn't much different, tho the airplanes may cost about 25% more, and the fuel bill will be about double. Howard and Paul both placed in the top 15 at the NATS with .40 and .15 engines. The .25 is handicapped by AMA rules, to carry the same lines as a .40 (.015" stranded) when .012's would do fine, IMHO. Steve

geoffgg · Nov 03, 2001 06:19 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#3 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-01 AT 06:22 PM (CDT)

LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-01 AT 06:21 PM (CDT)

Bob

There is a list in Stunt News every year after the Nats. I don't have time to did it out and answer the question now but I seem to remember a few .40s performed rather well.

Got an air show to go to.

Cheers, Geoff

godzilla · Nov 03, 2001 09:46 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#10 source

>Doug Moon won Expert at a
>Dallas contest this year with
>an OS LA 46.

With no appearance points...

The City Smasher

RocketCityJim · Nov 03, 2001 07:57 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#4 source
Larry,

Don't quite know what you are trying to stir up here, but I believe that an OS .40VFRE won the 98 Nats. I know that since then that the PA 61 has been king of the Nats, but I'll bet a good plane in the right hands using the OS 40-46 would be just as competitive and likely to win the Nats as a PA .61 powered plane. They are both good engines, they just need to run a little differently to achieve the required power for the pattern.

Jim Pollock

Peabody · Nov 03, 2001 08:56 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#5 source
Larry:

Me thinks that there is an Aerotiger .36 lurking somewhere: plenty of power, stone reliable and lotsa fun!

See Ya

Peabody

RocketCityJim · Nov 03, 2001 09:15 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#6 source
Peabod,

Yes the AT .36 is powerful, but no more powerful than a SSW FP.35 with a 3 Blade Eather Prop. And yes the AT .36 did qualify in the Top 20 in 2000. John was a little lethargic in 2001 by his own admission.

Jim Pollock

Howard Rush · Nov 03, 2001 09:24 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#8 source
The smallest engine in the top 20 at the Nats was an OS .15. If you use an engine that small, though, you gotta use a bunch of 'em.

Howard Rush

RocketCityJim · Nov 03, 2001 09:30 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#9 source
Well now Howard,

How about a B-36 for next year? BigIron would love it, wouldn't he?

godzilla · Nov 03, 2001 09:54 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#11 source
I am not sure if anyone has been paying real attention, but in general, the airframes are getting smaller. The engines are just staying bigger.

I think that you will see as the true nature of how to get TORQUE out an engines becomes more apparent, the engines will once again get smaller.

The only reason the engines got so large is because we were taking all of the BALLS out of them to try to get a stunt run. Small ports and correct scavenging are changing the need for huge displacement.

I will predict that next years NATS will NOT necessarily be dominated by any power package. There is just too much going on…

The City Smasher

godzilla · Nov 03, 2001 09:54 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#12 source
I am not sure if anyone has been paying real attention, but in general, the airframes are getting smaller. The engines are just staying bigger.

I think that you will see as the true nature of how to get TORQUE out an engines becomes more apparent, the engines will once again get smaller.

The only reason the engines got so large is because we were taking all of the BALLS out of them to try to get a stunt run. Small ports and correct scavenging are changing the need for huge displacement.

I will predict that next years NATS will NOT necessarily be dominated by any power package. There is just too much going on…

The City Smasher

Ted Fancher · Nov 04, 2001 12:07 AM

RE: Engine Sizes#13 source
Boy, This is like a mine field waiting for the uninformed to take an errant step!

First of all, a simple answer to the original question. The reason the OS .25 et all have been getting so many rave reviews is that they are a pretty near perfect modern equivilant powerwise to the historic king, the Fox .35...without a lot of the baggage that comes with side mounting, special fuels, careful break-in etc. If you can build any of the modern (or not so modern) profiles straight and at a reasonable weight and out of the box .20/.25 OS or LA provides a bunch of useable power with very little fiddling and little risk of hurting the engine while learning the dos and don'ts of running it.

Top level competition stunt is another animal entirely and replete with lots of considerations beyond "mere" functionality. It is absolutely true that under ideal conditions combos such as my Chizler/Max 35S or Billy's VSC dominating Vulcan and Aero Tiger .36 can fly patterns at the highest level. There is NO magic that makes bigger airplanes and bigger engines and/or pipes/four cycles inherently better mechanisms for performing the pattern than smaller/simpler/less powerful combinations.

This is, yet again, another rendition of the often debated better mousetrap definition of CLPA. Sometimes its a debate about one design versus another or, more often like this, one of motive superiority of one sort or another. The bottom line in almost any clash of top pilots is that the pilot whose powertrain performs most to the liking of its pilot will likely come out on top.

It doesn;t make a lot of difference what form that powertrain takes, only that it performs in the manner desired and that the elements at the time of competition are receptive to that type of power delivery. Under a given set of conditions almost any well tuned combintion is capable of performing excellently.

In a subjectively evaluated event such as ours, however, other aspects come into play, Not the least of these is the awareness on the part of the evaluators (judges) of just exactly what is "state of the art" in the technical areas. It is entirely possible that either the judges expect top level competitors to use state of the art systems or, conversely, that competitors "expect judges to expect" that and thus they tend to run in packs, all using the "expected" high tech approach.

Recent history tends to support the latter thesis inasmuch as the judges at the last two nats and team trials seemed entirely willing to give high marks to a decidedly "non-high-zoot" plane/pilot/powertrain presentation in the form of young Todd Lee, his modified Sig kit and non-piped 4/2/4 OS .46SF.

These comments obviously open up a vast arena of possible opinions about which I have no desire to initiate debate. On the other hand, I'll gladly sit back and see what others have to say.

Ted

jacobite · Nov 04, 2001 02:01 AM

Not wanting to stir things up...;-)#14 source
Last years Australian Nats ( or was it the year before ? time flies at my age....) was won using a Fox35 on a Coy Lady.

Dave Moffitt

geoffgg · Nov 04, 2001 06:20 AM

RE: Not wanting to stir things up...;-)#15 source
Dave

You are correct--it was last year--the Aussie Nats at Nowra in April/May 2000. So long ago! But it was a Fox with a hemi head and a few of Brian Gardiner's tricks.

Your point is totally valid, however, and while the PA 61 dominated the US Nats in 2001, there was a fair smattering of other smaller engines used with some modest success. For example, Claus Maikis brought a Thunder Tiger 42-powered Bear. Third place in Advanced went to Kevin Stewart and his OS 40 powered Dove.

Someone further up the thread suggested that the pilot/model combination was the most importand issue.

Some of our regular contributors to these discussions have suggested to me privately that Randy's Aero Tiger 36 in a Tempest 40 or an SV 40 could be a seriously competitive combination in the right hands.

To provide an answer to the original question, it is very clear that the top half-dozen or more at the US Nats used PA 61s but there is a strong view that those of us who cannot spend a week's wages on a model plane engine should not give up hope.

Rather they should, as Mark Batty did last year when he won the Aussie Nats, fly a model trimmed to within a gnat's whisker of its very existence and practice so you can fly the model to within the same gnat's whisker of its life and you can win.

Cheers, Geoff

Larry F · Nov 05, 2001 09:11 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#16 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-05-01 AT 09:17 PM (CST)

Howard --

That is one cheatin' heart (but clever) response! Four times .15 = .60. LOL

Larry F

(Edit -- Woops! This was supposed to go under Howard's note, but fell down here, and I can't move it back up.)

mogren · Nov 08, 2001 08:54 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#17 source
Maybe the bigger planes are doing better because the judges eyes are getting older.

Larry F · Nov 10, 2001 06:12 PM

RE: Engine Sizes#18 source
Gang --

This thread encouraged me and a bunch of other half fast flyers. Ted told the truth, and Rocket City Jim can relax. I am not trying to stir up any controversy, and I can see that no controversy exists.

The truth is the big PA 61s with pipes are slightly superior, otherwise no one would bother. That is what I hoped would be the response.

That is, us average Joes can go build and fly the old 35 -- 40 models and not worry about losing much to the top guns. They will beat us on skill, not the airplane. A good Fox 35 Nobler or Twister is all we need until our skills reach the Matt, Ted, Dave, Paul level. You are just kidding yourself if you try to build a world class winner instead of honing world class flying skills. The elite systems are for those who can beat the rest of us with a Ringmaster, but need that extra edge to beat the best of the best. For the rest of us, it is business as usual.

Larry F