How finishes are judged

LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-04 AT 07:10 PM (CDT)
 
Oh boy.....

ask Ron....

Well, You all knew I couldn't stay out of this one. It seems to me that over the years, the appearance point judging has evolved into a concurs type event. I don't believe this was ever the intent but it has worked out that way. The rule book says:.."Judges shall exercise prudence in assigning points, and reserve excellent point values for those models which are decidedly above average."

I understand this year at the Nats that only one plane was on the front row. Bob G's "Bear" Nobler AND that it only received 19 points. I find it hard to believe that at this event with 128 planes and the best pilot/builders from all over the country and the world that there wasn't a 20 point plane in the bunch. This is no slam on the judges at all. Gerry Phelps was one of them and you won't find a nicer or more conscientious person anywhere. I don't know who the other judge was.

My opinion: (and I will continue to call it this way whenever I am called upon to judge) I see no reason why a perfectly executed Ringmaster should not receive max points. In district 8 we a blessed with a number of very talented builders. At Texarkana this Spring Windy, Rich G, Kent T, Richard O, Bill W and others were given 20 points because Terry Tucker and I felt they were outstanding planes. We also agreed as to "our" interpretation of the rule book for points to be added to flight score. We weren't trying to decide the prettiest and then scale down from there. In other words, every plane there was a potential 20 pointer. I think we gave 6 or 7 planes the max out of 32 which were entered.

I'm not trying to start a big blow up here. I just feel strongly that there is a difference in "best in show" and appearance points to be added to the flight score. That Perfect Ringmaster will get the same appearance points as Windy's B-25. BUT Windy's B-25 would get the "best in show" over the Ringmaster. That is, if I'm doing the judging.

Strange, I was just thinking of Windy's B25 while reading this thread. Clearly a magnificent effort, and a beautiful finish, but IMO it is very artificial looking. Imagine what this ship could look like with a truly "scale" type finish!

But that doesn't take anything away from Windy's effort, which clearly deserves recognition - I'd say he deserve every 20 point score he gets. No one else works so hard (at least any harder).

Here's something to consider, though, about appearance judging. In spite of the inequities and disagreements, a maximum of *20* points are involved! That's less than 3% of the total available score. Yes, it's very subjective, but so is judging in general.

I would tend to give high appearance points to the scale like finish, myself. But I understand how it can happen.

IMO, again, it is pretty asanine to move an excellent authentic finish effort on the back row - it's an insult, IMO. But such things happen. It's wrong.

[photo not recovered: 3e69bb3870f12ad5.jpg]

"Black holes were created when God divided by 0." -unknown

Great looking Zero!

Thanks Bob And F4F Guy
Thank you for responding to my post.
Excelent pics, that's excactly what I'm talking about!
Awsome airplanes, the attention to detail is perfect! But do you think that any of these planes are going to get a perfect 20. That is what I'm trying to get across, I think that planes and finishes shouold be judged on the effort put in by the builder not on how shiney the finish is!
Anyway this is my little opinion. I'm not a competative flyer but I think that there is to much presure to get that perfect shiney finish to score 20 points. Maybe we are ignoring another asspect of stunt, the perfect weatherd finish, I've said this in another post but I think a weatherd finish would be awesome! And that the powers that be should juge the planes based on the effort put into the finish not on how shiney the finish is!
Anywho that's my oppinion and I'm sticking to it!
Dwayne

LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-04 AT 00:37 AM (CDT)
 
Many of us agree, but like the man said, these are PA planes, not scale models. So, lots of clear, sanded and rubbed out. Lots and lots of elbow grease.
Personally I love scale planes, especially those with tail hooks like the F4F and A6M5(?).

>Many of us agree, but like the man said, these are PA
>planes, not scale models. So, lots of clear, sanded and
>rubbed out. Lots and lots of elbow grease.
>Personally I love scale planes, especially those with tail
>hooks like the F4F and A6M5(?).

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Ty:

Two comments:

(1)All of these are PA airplanes;finish is finish, the "book" doesn't say "shine",it says "finish".

(2) A6M3 Model 22.

I agree 100%. But too many judges don't. So until the judges come around to what a "finish" really is, we are stuck with same old same old. As to your planes, I would not hesitate to award 20 points as I know what it takes to get the scale appearance. I hate a scale like plane with a too shiney finish unless it is a GA type. Military aircraft are far more interesting. As to the A6M3, I should have noticed the -5 exhaust stacks were not there.
So, when are you going to do my all time favorite, the F6F-3/5 Hellcat??

LAST EDITED ON Jul-16-04 AT 02:08 AM (CDT)
 
>Thanks Bob And F4F Guy
>Thank you for responding to my post.
>Excelent pics, that's excactly what I'm talking about!
>Awsome airplanes, the attention to detail is perfect! But do
>you think that any of these planes are going to get a
>perfect 20. That is what I'm trying to get across, I think
>that planes and finishes shouold be judged on the effort put
>in by the builder not on how shiney the finish is!
>Anyway this is my little opinion. I'm not a competative
>flyer but I think that there is to much presure to get that
>perfect shiney finish to score 20 points. Maybe we are
>ignoring another asspect of stunt, the perfect weatherd
>finish, I've said this in another post but I think a
>weatherd finish would be awesome! And that the powers that
>be should juge the planes based on the effort put into the
>finish not on how shiney the finish is!
>Anywho that's my oppinion and I'm sticking to it!
>Dwayne

Ron B.
F4Fguy

Dwayne:

The F4F-3 was in last place in the last row at the '88 Nats,behind a much patched and battered Banshee.

Ron B.

Edit: Guys,as much as I enjoy the strokes,and compliments,this subject has been beat to death.I'll keep on doing it my way.I'm too old to change,but I can recognize a windmill as well as the next guy.

Ron,

Well, come out to the Northwest and you'll get very high points the next time I judge.

I love the the things.

Ron,

Man, the detail is so cool. I love the fat fuselages and the weathered finishes. I especially like the Zero.

Dwayne:

This is a sore spot for some of us (a lot actually). The awarding of points is mainly a subjective process by the judge(s). Most people expect a stunt plane to be shiney and a lot deduct for a matt finish. Some people deduct for a iron on finish, some will not give more than a certain number to profiles, etc. Imagine someone at at car show enters a WWII Jeep in battle condition, how does it fare against the other gleaming cars that are in better than new condition. We have the same problem with out planes.

With the high standards of most planes at the Nats the points are based on relative appearance in the mind of the judges. Planes are placed in a row with other planes of similar quality(?), after the judges are satisfied that all the planes are properly ranked points are awarded for each row starting with the best.

There used to be 4 criteria used in the judging; originality, realism, workmanship, & finish. Good judges are aware of these and try to reward exceptional work, however personal preferences do enter into the final decision. A good (great) semi-scale plane like those Ron builds should get high points but it is so different some people have no idea how to judge it.

The short answer is that they are judged incorrectly. There is always the argument that "finish" refers to shine in Stunt and that the semi-scale PA ships should be in scale if they want their finishes judged as good. As appropriate as they are to the subjects, most judges don't think they (authentic finishes) have a place in PA. A real bummer, all three of these models would be 18-20 pointers when I judge.