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Turning CL into RC--a rant

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Alan Hahn · Nov 08, 2001 06:22 PM

#0 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-01 AT 04:14 PM (CST)

I haven't actually started a post for a long time, but I guess I am getting a little agitated from reading the Rules Article from the latest issue of Stunt News. (I am NOT agitated at Stunt News!)

I once made a joke about after one puts a remote control on the throttle, it would also make sense to put a servo on the flaps/ailerons, just to be able to tweak the plane while it was flying. And then of course, why not add a servo to the rudder, just to give you that outboard thrust in the corners. And by now, why not just add the elevator servo too? Finally you can throw away those pesky control lines which are always getting kinked up and breaking at inopportune times!

And then I read the Rule's Article. I usually like satiric pieces (like my paragraph above), but I have a bad feeling that the article isn't intended to be humorous!

The author claims that allowing such "innovations" will attract more fliers into CL. But if I wanted to fly this kind of CL, I would just fly RC--which I still do. My attitude is that there already is an event close to the author's heart--it is called RC Pattern. A nice event. I personally think these type of innovations will kill CL PA.

One thing I like about PA and CL is that it is more than just flying a good pattern. It is a whole series of things that one needs to master, from building, to motor runs, to trimming, to ....... (and I admit that I have a really long way to go).

So my conclusion is that we should have and indeed need apparently a (new?) rule that any control must come from the mechanical movement of the control lines. If you want a throttle, install a third line, that would be ok with me--trimmable flaps--how about a fourth line? etc.etc. At least with this rule, there would be some tradeoff with complexity. I hope everyone realizes that I am talking about the competion events, not fun flying on your own.

Also RC can be interpreted as "Remote Control". And anyway as far as I am concerned, photons are photons, whether they are infrared or radio waves.

Whew, I am glad that's off my back.

Alan

Jim T. · Nov 08, 2001 07:33 PM

#1 source
I think I would agree with you. The basic idea in CL is that the airplane is controlled through the lines. If you want to run an RC signal down the lines, I have no problem with that. But I don't think we want to go to the idea of a tethered airplane completely controlled by RC, which has already been done. I have no objection to this for fun, but it is not CL.

Jim Thomerson

godzilla · Nov 08, 2001 08:34 PM

#2 source
>So my conclusion is that we
>should have and indeed need
>apparently a (new?) rule
>that any control must come
>from the mechanical movement of
>the control lines.

There is a lot of discussion of the “spirit of the event”. RC control DOES go against that spirit, I believe. It is amazing that “legal” depends on who is driving the idea.

I do not think CLPA REQUIRES a throttle. Does it make one flyer more competitive over another? Eh, who knows, probably not…

Speaking of new rules we need a set of guidelines for appearance judging. It amazes me no one has ever brought this up before. We have stringent guidelines for the judging of the maneuvers but absolutely NO GUIDE for judging appearance. Why? Without rules and guidelines it is a popularity contest and totally subjective.


The City Smasher

catdaddy · Nov 08, 2001 08:50 PM

#3 source
>Speaking of new rules we need
>a set of guidelines for
>appearance judging. It amazes
>me no one has ever
>brought this up before.
>We have stringent guidelines for
>the judging of the maneuvers
>but absolutely NO GUIDE for
>judging appearance. Why?
>Without rules and guidelines it
>is a popularity contest and
>totally subjective.

I'm in agreement with all three of you guys. I would just add that it appears from what I've experienced that some judging on the maneuvers is also on the subjective side.

catdaddy


regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

Ty M. · Nov 08, 2001 10:02 PM

#4 source
I agree on the guidelines for judging a planes appearance. I personally don't like green airplanes and would probably not give it maximum points. No guide lines, personal tastes take over. As to electric signals sent up the 2 or 3 control wires, why not? The more complex the plane, the more time Mr.Murphy will come around and just foul up the works. So, be a masochist and build in all those problems. It seems a very big and beautiful B-17 stunter was a lot of trouble just to get started at times. I believe it is now retired.

Jim P · Nov 08, 2001 11:25 PM

#5 source
I would also vote for a rule simply stating that all control inputs for any flight function must be transmitted along the control lines, period. This game is tough enough witout over gimmicking it.

Nils · Nov 09, 2001 01:05 AM

#6 source
I don't really see any need to start making more rules. If a guy wants to use invisible magic rays shooting out of his hat to drive some receiving device which relays a signal to a battery powered electronic actuator of some sort that operates a carburetor throttle-body in his engine causing it to basically do what any stock ST.46 will do by simply setting the needle properly it's ok with me. If he wants to do it with a motor nearly big enough to fly an ultralight that's ok with me too. I have had several .91 4 strokes & they have way more power than needed to fly an airplane that's bound to a 70' radius circle by existing rules. I really doubt if the big beast ever gets past 2/3 throttle, if that. What I'm getting at is, as long as the line length stays at 70' max, engine size will take care of itself. As far as the throttle control, (I could be wrong here, I'd have to look it up to be sure), but, I think Windy finished 5th last year. This year, with the big 4 stroke & the magic hat he finished, uhh, 5th. Personally I don't see anything to get upset about. If this setup made some huge difference in actual point scores I might see a problem.
At any rate, I want to see video of how it works, it must have taken a lot of effort to make it work. I've emailed Windy & asked him for a tape of how he made it work & of the Typhoon flying if he has one (I'll be amazed if he doesn't). Come to think of it that was a week ago & I haven't heard back from him. Has he got a new email address? On vacation?

Nils

Jim P · Nov 09, 2001 08:25 AM

#7 source
This is not really a major issue with me as I will never fly at that level but I sure would hate to see technology creep reach the point to where you are not deemed to be a serious competitor unless your ship taxi's in front of the judges, shuts itself down, and the plastic pilot tips his hat.

Mark Mitchell · Nov 09, 2001 08:59 AM

#8 source
In the mid-fifties, a time of intense innovation in stunt flying, I have no doubt that a carbon fiber bellcrank, a PA 61 on a pipe with 3-bladed CF prop, or the likes of a Saito 56 would have seemed outlandishly futuristic and just plain uneccessary. Especially at a time when a Fox powered Nobler was the ragged leading edge of technological progress. I've also no doubt that in the early years of controline that thousands of dedicated modelers thought that people who needed lines to control a model were wimps who weren't up to the challenging task of trimming and flying a free-flight model. But innovation and pushing the envelope of performance and construction has been a hallmark of the aeromodeling hobby for a hundred years and scarcely appears to be slackening. Many of of now consider CL stunt to be quite a "traditional" enterprise and there is a large niche, OTS and Classic, for folks who value the achievements and variety of the past. For those of us who are interested in experimentation and just plain messing about with models I say anything goes. I think of controline as a fascinating and worthy part of the aeromodeling world and I value its traditions but "crossover" from other parts of the hobby or any other technological area doesn't bother me a bit. Have at it I say. The hobby is big enough to encompass Windy's Typhoon on the elegant technological end and a stone beginners Baby Flight Streak/Cox Black Widow on the other end. That's pretty darn inclusive. To me as long as there is a handle with lines running out to an airplane making it do something then that's controline regardless of whatever other frippery is involved. Fun for all and all for fun.--Mark

groundcrew · Nov 09, 2001 09:23 AM

#9 source
Alan, and others-

About 70 years ago the stick and tissue and rubber guys and the gassie free-flighters were wailing about this Jim Walker character who was barnstorming around the country flying toy airplanes on strings. He was going to destroy model aviation.

Free flight, both rubber and gas, is still doing okay, and now we have C/L as well!

I started flying in the late 50's. I liked the way control line was then. When I came back to the hobby in the early 90s much had changed. At first I didn't like it. But now I've gotten used to the new technology and I enjoy it as much as enjoy my old Fox .35s.

While throttle control and retracts and pilot figures who tip their hats to the judges may find more of an application in scale than in CLPA, experimenting with them won't destroy stunt. The definition of control line in the rule book is clear enough to prevent the use of a RC plane on a tether. Anyway, I'd like to see someone fly a good square 8 with "5' radius's" and 5' bottoms with a tether-plane and a transmitter!

Respectfully,

Don

Dzlstunter · Nov 09, 2001 11:22 AM

#10 source
Am I missing something here? I have no objection whatsoever to innovation and crossover products, etc. But doesn't the thing we do define itself? Doesn't controlline flying mean that the controls are sent to the plane by lines?

If it doesn't stink, it's not a diesel.

groundcrew · Nov 09, 2001 03:23 PM

#14 source
Dzlstunter,

The rulebook says that control of the model's elevation must be via the line(s)

Doug,

Sergio Zigras, the man who developed the infra-red Z-tron that Windy uses told me that he can provide discrete signals for multiple units, so to or more flying at once would be practical. That still would not eliminate the need for an impound, etc. though. Since light waves have frequency just like sound waves do, I guess we might have to wear frequency pins on our hats as well!

Later guys,

Don

Dzlstunter · Nov 09, 2001 04:21 PM

#15 source
LAST EDITED ON Nov-09-01 AT 07:30 PM (CST)

Groundcrew: I know Windy didn't violate the rules, or he wouldn't have been allowed to fly at the Nationals level. The point I was trying to make was that the event defines itself: control line--not control lines for elevation plus anything else you can strap onto yourself to control the path of the plane in the flight hemisphere. By the way, I don't want to get into a cyber-fight here. Given our numbers, I don't think we as a group can afford to be too divisive. I'm only trying to clarify my original post.

If it doesn't stink, it's not a diesel.

DMoon · Nov 09, 2001 12:25 PM

#11 source
The real problem with Throttle control will be in the furture when several people show up with the same device. Windy said the signal was good for 600 Feet. He also said if he is trying for throttle control form 600 feet then he has alot bigger problems on his hands(Laughter) If you have two fliers next two each other flying in competition and flyer X adjust his thottle and it changes his and Flyer Ys throttle then you have a real potential for danger. In RC they have different channels. I dont know if this technology is available for Inrafred. Also at an RC event they have to impound their radios during competition. I guess we will have to impound our hats. I dont know if that wil go over to well with the CL guys who constantly want to practice. Myself included. I just wish we could use fuel shutoffs. Sure would save alot of time and aggrevation.

DMoon

Doug Moon

Ed Culver · Nov 09, 2001 02:37 PM

#12 source
I thought that fuel shutoffs were OK unless you were flying FAI. I guess I need to revisit my rule book.

For my 2 cents - I think that builders should be allowed to make whatever technological breakthroughs they want to make. I consider it this way: If you are willing to take the lower performance from an airplane that has the additional weight of a battery pack, servos, additional hardware, etc. then go for it. Persoanally I am going to experiment with the Jomar retract system. If it works I will compete with it and if it doesn't it was an experiment.

Additionally I beleive that if you want to risk your airplane with a system that may pick up stray signals (IR or RF) then it is your perogative. There is something to be said for impounds but what are you going to do take everyone's hat?

I believe that innovation helps keep our hobby vibrant. What would we be flying now if someone had suggested that flaps were against the spirit of the competition because not everyone can get them to work right? I know that is an extreme example but you get the idea.

I see nothing wrong with sometime in the future we have Old Time, Classic, and Neo-Classic events because innovators have changed the face of PA (again).

That's my opinon - Ed

Nils · Nov 09, 2001 03:07 PM

#13 source
I just talked to Windy on the phone. We talked about this type of throttle system a bit. He said "You know you're a success in this hobby if everybody is mad atcha'"
The video is on the way, I'm really curious as to how it works, not because I want to copy it, I just want to see how it's done. We also talked a bit about his plans for the future, it seems Paul Walker won't have the only Stunt Bomber forever.....

Nils

godzilla · Nov 09, 2001 04:40 PM

#16 source
>He said "You
>know you're a success in
>this hobby if everybody is
>mad atcha'"

I’m not mad at Windy. Are you mad at Windy? I’m not…

Windy is just fine in my book. He pushes the envelope, which is good. Excellent in fact. I have stolen half of my stuff from Windy.

If I say there should be only control lines ONLY in control line, am I mad at Windy? No.

If I say that Windy’s system should be outlawed will Windy be mad at me? Maybe.

I, frankly, have nothing to gain. Does Windy?

The City Smasher

Richard · Nov 09, 2001 06:40 PM

#17 source
One point on this technological question, and why I opposed the introduction of throttles when we discussed the FAI rules here in Australia.

Mark Mitchel noted that back in the fifties, when everyone was flying Foxes and Noblers, that carbon props and tuned pipes etc would have seemed outlandish. And he's right.

Nowadays, I call up my c/l supplier, I can get a fully reworked Fox 35 for $150 (aussie dollars, don't fall off your chair), or I can buy a PA 61 for over $800.

That's why I don't think this mad rush for technology is good for the sport and why I didn't support it. (the price difference for those that didn't pick it)

Lets see, just with what's available now, you can have: fully carbon wing, fully carbon fuselage, hell, Windy's convinced he can make a fully carbon model even if he hasn't done it yet, a tuned pipe four stroke with fuel injection (available now) on a throttle, with retracts. How much is that going to cost? Is that going to appear out of the reach of the ordinary bloke? Streuth, I can't afford a front line stunt motor NOW! I spent less on my computerised r/c unit than I would need to spend if I wanted a PA61!

The sad part is, it's not necessary. You can fly stunt without all that expense, but that's not the way it's going to work is it.

And the solution will be 'more events', like racing and radio. Stunt's big strength has been its refusal to have a proliferation of events and classes, but it's happening - classic, vintage, skill levels. This will hasten the process and we will wind up with an elite class at the top with huge budgets. You will ask the missus how much you are allowed to spend this year and that will determine whether you go for the top or fly in a lower class. Sorry. That's the way of the world and I challenge you to find any competition where that isn't the case, unless it has been deliberately held back technologically.

And all to fit in with the creative instincts of a few.

I maintain that there is plenty within the current rules to allow the techno freaks to play - we've seen it happen all along - pipes, carbon, etc. I don't think restricting the number of toys the boys can play with is a huge problem and it keeps it all within the reach of the common herd.

But perhaps I'm just getting grumpy in my old age.

Cheers
Richard

Nils · Nov 10, 2001 06:36 PM

#21 source
I'm sure he was only joking. He was chuckling when he said it.
Nils

Brett Buck · Nov 10, 2001 11:14 AM

#18 source
>
>And then I read the Rule's
>Article. I usually like satiric
>pieces (like my paragraph above),
>but I have a bad
>feeling that the article isn't
>intended to be humorous!
>
>The author claims that allowing such
>"innovations" will attract more fliers
>into CL. But if I
>wanted to fly this kind
>of CL, I would just
>fly RC--which I still do.
>My attitude is that there
>already is an event close
>to the author's heart--it is
>called RC Pattern. A nice
>event. I personally think
>these type of innovations will
>kill CL PA.


First, the article in question was written by my PAMPA EC colleague Dave Cook, who's been doing this for a long time and has a keen interest in the future of the event. He's entitled to an opinion, and there's no reason to get upset for him expressing it.

Secondly, I agree with you. Nominally C/L models using R/C or other forms of non-line control are best categorized as "hybrid" models, and represent a different animal from what I would personally consider C/L.

When asked for an input to the new FAI rules proposals, I stated as much. My take was that all control input that was "active" during the flight must be supplied through the lines. This doesn't preclude using R/C subcarriers through the lines (ala Fred Cronnewett's gadget), or fuel shutoffs, but it does preclude EM transmissions like the Ztron, or other direct radio/infrared etc links.

I believe that the question was intended for the C/L "General" section. I (and several others) were concerned that inputs could come from someone other than the pilot. For instance, someone could have a radio link to the compression and needle on a T/R model so that it could be set in flight by someone in the pits or crowd. Of course, if it was legal, it could be jammed or spoofed, bringing a whole new area of problems.

The original intent of this change proposal was to unambiguously allow things like uniflow tanks and tuned pipes. Some "rulebook lawyers" with axes to grind were willing to try to make a stink about this issue as "controlling the engine" which is what is diallowed in the current FAI rules. Of course, the argument could be made that a suction tank also controls the engine, making it go faster and faster as the flight goes on, and that a muffler is a device that makes the engine speed vary a lot during flight. The "tuned pipe is illegal" concept was just another asinine attempt to gain an unfair advantage for individuals who couldn't win otherwise, but the crux of the issue was the dreadful and highly ambiguous current rule.

Additionally, I suggested that any control input that primarily effected pitch be mechanically actuated. This avoids the possibility of autopilots. For me, the problem was one of enforcement. I see no intrinsic problem with stability augmentation. But how do you distinguish a stability augmentation system from an autopilot by looking at it?

The distinction was made for the pitch axis. I see no problem at all with a non-interactive electronic devices for roll and/or yaw, like a gyro-controlled rudder. As long as you set and forget it, I see no difference between mechanically, aerodynamically, or electonically actuated trim items. This would allow beyond question any pre-set engine controls like mufflers, pipes,uniflow tanks, suction tanks, magic "fill while inverted tanks" that allow reasonable cutoffs, engine timers, engine sound listeners for retracts, etc.

The idea that a shutoff was illegal was among the most absurd concepts I had ever heard in modelling. I am not aware of anyone who thought that "accuracy of filling one's fuel tank" should have been a major factor in stunt. This is particularly true in FAI and even more so at the WC, since there's rarely any practice spots at all. This give an extreme advantage to the locals, even more so than having the NATS in Muncie every year.

None of my opinions on this were based on "getting" any individual, and I would be astonished if Dave's input was intent on helping any individuals. It's simply a matter of having an opinion on a topic, based on years of experience and a love of the event. Disagreements are fine, as long as no one gets personal.

I think Dave's underlying premise that allowing hybrid models would somehow stimulate a whole bunch of people to fly stunt is false. I do not believe that anything currently in the rules has any effect on the popularity of C/L. The reason that C/L is not rising as fast as we would like it is a combination of societal issues, like lack of local flying sites, lack of interest in airplanes in general, and the lack of percieved value in hobby and craft activities on the part of parents. Changing competition rules will have an effect only when and if there are a huge pool of C/L sport fliers who are being held back from competition by some rules issue. Changing the competition rules in an effort to stimulate wide-spread participation is like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I am not sanguine about the possibilities of generateing a large new crop of C/L participants using any method, but I am pretty sure that changing competition rules won't work.

I also don't beleive that disallowing EM links to the model will stifle innovation. Coming up with a workable gyro-controlled yaw stabilizer, closed-loop engine control, closed-loop airspeed control, or an in-flight datalogger or telemetry system would require some very highly innovative and high-tech work.

I would however point out that Dave's examples (needle valve setting, cutoffs, and similar items) are in the rules "gray area" and were in fact used by Windy at the NATS this year. Therefore his example uses *require no rules changes*. Windy's throttle gadget was pretty neat, and it worked like a charm, and frankly, as he used it, it really didn't cross any lines that bothered me. I would be a lot more concerned about the other potential uses, and I think the rules should define "control-line model" pretty specifically.

Best response to this would be for you to write up a short, non-personally directed article for inclusion in the Rules column next time, expressing an opposing view.


Brett

Mark Mitchell · Nov 10, 2001 02:23 PM

#19 source
Additionally, I
>suggested that any control input
>that primarily effected pitch be
>mechanically actuated. This avoids the
>possibility of autopilots.

Absolutely. Any flyer who depended on such a thing could forget about competition anyway. Even if it were not stricty prohibited one can easily see judges being seriously dis-impressed by someone not fully controlling the shapes on the hemisphere. Also it's just not possible to do. No computer yet invented could handle the extreme variability and complexity of stunt flying a thousandth as well as a human brain.
>

I think Dave's
>underlying premise that allowing hybrid
>models would somehow stimulate a
>whole bunch of people to
>fly stunt is false. I
>do not believe that anything
>currently in the rules has
>any effect on the popularity
>of C/L. The reason that
>C/L is not rising as
>fast as we would like
>it is a combination of
>societal issues, like lack of
>local flying sites, lack of
>interest in airplanes in general,
>and the lack of percieved
>value in hobby and craft
>activities on the part of
>parents. Changing competition rules will
>have an effect only when
>and if there are a
>huge pool of C/L sport
>fliers who are being held
>back from competition by some
>rules issue. Changing the competition
>rules in an effort to
>stimulate wide-spread participation is like
>re-arranging the deck chairs on
>the Titanic. I am not
>sanguine about the possibilities of
>generateing a large new crop
>of C/L participants using any
>method, but I am pretty
>sure that changing competition rules
>won't work.
>
Too true. This hobby requires too many peculiar skills, inclinations and operational circumstances to ever have a broad mass appeal.

Windy's throttle gadget
>was pretty neat, and it
>worked like a charm, and
>frankly, as he used it,
>it really didn't cross any
>lines that bothered me. I
>would be a lot more
>concerned about the other potential
>uses, and I think the
>rules should define "control-line model"
>pretty specifically.


A throttled ship may actually have somewhat of a disadvantage when it comes to being judged on takeoffs and landings. If you do use one and you muff the maneuver anyway then the judges may well go harder on you than otherwise. As far as any other part of the pattern goes throttling shouldn't be much help at all. Things just happen too fast in the middle of a maneuver for it to be practical. That said I can see it being feasible to use a throttle to add a few RPM to enhance demanding maneuvers such as the hourglass and clover. To take advantage of the difference within the maneuver itself however is going to take exceedingly fine reflexes and a young ton of practice. It's conceivable, barely, that this could make the difference between 3rd and 1st at the Nats but not between 20th and 1st. What one had for breakfast is likely to have more of an effect at the top level of competition than such subtle tweakings.----Mark

Steve Scott · Nov 10, 2001 02:42 PM

#20 source
I can see it now - trim buttons on the C/L handle.

Larry F · Nov 10, 2001 07:28 PM

#22 source
One reason CEOs get more money than the rest of us, is that they have the luxury of imagining a problem, imagining a solution, and then imagining they have averted a disaster by instituting some prevention. The loyal praise CEOs for their foresight.

We just fly toy airplanes. Let's not imagine a problem of which there is no evidence. If it becomes a problem, we can change the rules to deal with it. Point is, there is no problem today. It is a bit of a stretch to imagine one. Let's not waste our time solving non-existant problems.

Larry F

mrwhizkers · Nov 12, 2001 11:29 PM

#23 source
In a perfect world, a pilot with Nobler and a Fox .35 that turns in a better pattern than a pilot with a SV 11 with a piped PA .65, should win the contest. Well guess what, this ain't a perfect world.

The flyer with the equipment that makes him look like he takes the game a little more seriously will always have the edge. Praise,in the form of points, will be more generous, while mistakes will be more quickly forgiven.

I have been on both sides of this coin and seriously believe it to be true. However, I do not believe in faulting the judges for this condition. It would be like faulting a snake for crawling on its belly. Judges are human and are susceptible to human nature. Fair or not, appearances count. If you don't believe this, try taking out a home loan after showing up at the bank with 3 days worth of stubble and a "Grateful Dead" T-shirt.

Personally, I believe that the guys that master all the new technology and end up in the top 10, are the guys that are already in the top 10.

You want to add RF, IR, magic hats or a sorcerer's stone, I say go for it. Just give me a chance to add stock in balsa to my portfolio.

gcb · Nov 13, 2001 08:08 AM

#24 source
There IS room for all of us.

George

DMoon · Nov 13, 2001 09:32 AM

#25 source
I dont buy this notion that the pipes and all the carbon stuff gets extra points and gets scored better even if there are mistakes. I come to this conclusion because I watched Todd Lee stomp the competition two years in a row with a model that is 15 years old and has an old OS 45 in it for power. I real nice side exhaust setup that will make the judges score him well because he FLIES it so well.

I also barrowed a plane this past summer a little Bucaneer 740. Put in a side exhuast LA 46. All dope and tissue finish just like the good old days. I took that little plane and won the charles ash memorial. In the pack were several piped motors and many modern designs. SVs, Bears etc.

I believe that the majority of our judges do their very best to look at the manuvers and not the plane or pilot.

I am not mad at Windy either. Why must people see opposition as anger. I dont get it. Also those who oppose it should not be mad either they should just oppose it and move on.

I beleive that all things must be set on the ground and after take off control input must be done through the lines. That being said there is still plenty of room for fuel shutoffs on timers, flier has no control over that once the model is in the air. You could use retracts that listen for motor noise. Throttles that activate based on the models pitch. All of this being controlled by the model's lines. Not transmitted to it by a RADIO. Hence RC.

I am still not mad.

DMoon

Doug Moon

Brett Buck · Nov 13, 2001 09:57 AM

#26 source
>I dont buy this notion that
>the pipes and all the
>carbon stuff gets extra points
>and gets scored better even
>if there are mistakes.
>I come to this conclusion
>because I watched Todd Lee
>stomp the competition two years
>in a row with a
>model that is 15 years
>old and has an old
>OS 45 in it for
>power. I real nice
>side exhaust setup that will
>make the judges score him
>well because he FLIES it
>so well.
>

Perfect example, and absolutely true. Todd pretty much came out of nowhere at the 2000 NATs, no pre-contest hype or anything, after not particpating for a few years. He had, as you say, his old collapsed-wing Magnum/Mustang with an old motor that was not exactly new (having crashed his new airplane shortly before the contest). But from asolutely no expectations and no particular "flash", he simply started blowing people out of the water during qualifying. On his circle, he was *way* out ahead right from the first flight, and this was not a bunch of shmucks, it was half the seeded field at the NATs. Of course he ended up a very close second to Ted, beat me, Frank, Windy, and a whole bunch of name fliers soundly, all of which had the most modern equipment. The reason - he hit the intersections, hit the bottoms, and flew decent shapes at the proper size.

There is no better illustration of the nearly perfect fairness and lack of bias at the NATs. This bovine scatology about having to wear white pants, of do a bunch of attention-getting items for reasons of following fads, etc, is just that - male cattle digestive output. Put the airplane where it belongs in the air, and you will get a good score. Get a bad score and there's really only one person to blame.

Brett