Electric Control Line Aerobatics II - an update on where we are

An update on Electric Control Line Aerobatics


Blue Tooth, Blue Ray, HD, WiFi, Broadband, DLP, 802.11n, GPS, XM Satellite, GMS, SMS, WAP, I-mode, GPRS, MMS, CDMA, TDMA, D_AMPS, Fuzzy Logic, CMOS, MOSFET, MEMS, NEMS…………….etc, etc, etc.

Feeling left out yet? I could go on for a few more pages but if you do not know the meaning and application of the terms above, you are OLD!! (and these are just the easy ones!)

This is the world of a child celebrating his\her first birthday today. They will use, manipulate and redefine these and many other standards for their own purposes in the years to come. In all likelihood, the first car they will drive will be a Hybrid or pure electric powered vehicle. The first plane they will fly in will be able to make a trip to any major airport without the pilot touching the controls except for taxiing out to the runway. If they need a new body part or need to repair an existing one, one will be grown specifically for that purpose and it will integrate with their existing body without rejection.

Children do not wear wristwatches anymore. Instead, they look at their cell phones to tell the time. The amount of pure technological information they are asked to assimilate and make use of is staggering.

Children born today will laugh at you when they are teenagers if you try to tell them that small two or four stroke IC motors are an efficient use of technology to power a model plane. Almost everything in that child’s world is electronic, portable and powered by hi-tech batteries. Right now, battery technology is evolving at the rate of about one generation per 1.5 years. By the time our newly born child is fifteen, he will likely have seen some twenty to thirty more generations of battery technology pass by.

Yes, that’s how fast the world is changing. Your only decision is in how you are going to deal with the inevitable change. It is not something you have any control over. Moreover, it is not something to waste your time trying to. Life is short, far too short to erect artificial barriers to insulate ones self from the inevitable.


The state of Electric powered control line aerobatics:

Few people have seen an electric powered control line plane fly. Fewer still have flown one and even fewer still have built one. There are lots of opinions but little hard fact. So if I may, I will offer some facts and the occasional opinion on just where we are.

Q:
How competitive is an electric powered plane vs. an IC powered plane?

A:
It is both my own opinion and that of people you all highly respect that at the top level of competition, electric gives nothing away to other power trains. It is my humble opinion that smaller size electric power trains although adequate for sport flying are not able to match the performance on a size for size basis with comparable IC power trains. This is the result of economies of scale and power and can not be solved at the present by just building lighter.

Q:
Is electric power more or less expensive than IC power?

A:
If you do not already have the chargers, balancers, power supplies, extra batteries and electrical testing equipment then it is SUBSTANTIALLY more expensive. If you have all of the above and you are looking at the basic cost of a medium priced basic power train (motor, ESC, one battery, timer) then it is probably only TWICE as expensive as a similar .40 powered setup for a plane the size of a Twister. At the upper end it is about the same as full tuned pipe P.A. .65 setup. (not counting the support equipment or batteries)

The complete power train and support equipment for the most basic setup (not including plane) will cost you a bare minimum of $400.00. And at that you will have only two batteries. Five batteries would be the bare minimum to sustain a day of flying while charging and eight to ten required to be competitive.

Q:
What is the lifespan of the batteries in an electric powered setup?

A:
That depends to some extent on how much you paid for your batteries in the first place, what type of equipment you will be using to charge them, The rate that you will charge them and what type of environment they will be used in. High quality batteries cost more. High quality, LiPo specific computer controlled chargers and balancers cost more. The current thinking is that a new Thunder Power ProLite battery pack should last upwards of three hundred cycles or more if handled properly.

It should be noted that if you are not well beyond the stage where you are still crashing planes, then you should not consider electric flight. LiPo’s have a thin aluminum foil skin and will not tolerate a crash. Further, if you are new to the game you should know that a LiPo battery can EXPLODE!! up to fifteen minutes after it has been abused either in a crash or by improper loading during use or charging. Do not put one in your car to charge or after a crash and walk away!

Q:
Do I need to purchase the testing equipment sometimes suggested?

A:
Yes. This is not just for the “Pros”. You can not “see” electricity and you can do yourself or someone else a lot of harm if the various components are not hooked up properly or if they are not functioning as they should. The voltages we are playing with in larger planes can hurt you. You should have a WattMeter or E-Meter and a good Digital Multimeter at a minimum and an IR Temp gun to monitor battery pack, motor and ESC temps.

Q:
Can I save money by starting with a smaller system?

A:
Not as much as you think and only if you never want to move to a bigger system. Remember that the most basic setup will cost you about $400. For that, you will get small batteries, a charger and balancer that will only work with lower cell count batteries and an ESC that will not handle higher amp draws. All of these will need to be replaced at substantial cost should you wish to move up to a “full size” competitive ship.

Q:
What happens if they change the shape, size or weight of my battery?

A:
Therein lays a problem. The fuel for an IC powered plane always has the same shape and virtually the same weight. (Hence the design can remain the same for all time) The fuel for an electric powered plane comes in a physical form of differing weights, strengths and physical dimensions. SHOCKWAVE was only designed to work with (and can only physically accommodate) one battery, the Thunder Power ProLite 5S2PB 4200 mah brick battery pack. This pack and its technology were only four months old when I started the design. It took more than a year to design and produce the first plane. In that time, Thunder Power announced a new chemistry (TP Xtreme) and this resulted in a whole new series of weights, dimensions and strengths NONE OF WHICH WILL FIT INTO SHOCKWAVE !! I am not complaining mind you. There is no level of performance that I need that this package can not produce, at least any that I am currently aware of or feel a great need to possess. But the day will come (I am giving it a year at best) when Thunder Power will no longer produce that battery in those dimensions. This will occur for ALL current Lipo batteries regardless of manufacturer at some not too distant point! On that date SHOCKWAVE would not be worth building again. A whole new airframe based on the new battery weight, strength, and physical dimensions would need to be designed.

Q:
I have read that electric power trains are pretty simple compared to IC?

A:
If you mean that you can throw a switch and the engine springs to life then yes. If you mean that there is no challenge in developing an electric power train then you are in for a rude awakening!
Starting with the battery, you must decide which form factor, the number of volts, the number of amps, the number of cell in series, the number of cells in parallel, the required “C” rating, how you will mount it, how you will cool it, how you will remove it, how you will connect it, how to break it in, how much to charge it, what to charge it with, when to charge it and how to measure its various parameters.

Brushless out-runner electric motors are complex. You can change and may want to know the impact of changing the number of poles, the number of winds, the gauge of wire, the type of wind whether WYE , DELTA, STAR, the air gap, the type of magnet, the length and thickness of magnets, stator core material properties, motor shaft support, the diameter and length of the stator, type of case material, balance of rotating parts and cooling.

The Electronic Speed Control (ESC) is no less complex but if you are going to make improvements here you will need to know some hardcore electronics and be able to understand complex logic. Not all ESCs are made the same and not all Governor modes function the same. If you really want to have control over this environment you had better become fast friends with the guy who made your ESC since without his help, you will not achieve the results you had anticipated. Will he want to become fast friends with you? Not likely.

The timer/processor is no different. To make one yourself, you will have to know a fair bit about electronics and if you want to manufacture one then you will need to deal with surface mount technology and embedded programming.

So do you really need to know all of the above? No. But simple or lacking in challenge it is not!

Q:
Can I retrofit an electric power train into an existing model?

A:
While it may by possible to mount all of the components somewhere in or on the fuselage of an existing plane, I think the most likely outcome will be a nose heavy model. This would be OK if your intent was only to test various components for future use. If you want competitive performance, you may be disappointed. Check out how the battery is mounted in the electric Clown. The battery in SHOCKWAVE is mounted more than one inch inside the leading edge of the wing and the nose moment is shorter than a normal IC powered stunter.
Smaller systems do not generate as much heat as larger systems and you may get away with just mounting things where they will fit. In larger planes, the battery, ESC and motor will need to be cooled since they will be run at almost full power for the duration of the flight. There are also limitations on the length of cables you can use from the battery to the ESC and then to the motor.

At a minimum, I would suggest that you start with either a kit and modify it for proper balance from scratch or use an ARC (like the Vector 40) and rebuild the nose from the wing forward. In any case, your tail moment will probably still be too short to balance properly without the addition of extra weight. As a benchmark to compare where you are weight wise, SHOCKWAVE weighs 38 ounces as a full take apart, fully painted 710 square inch model. The plane less battery weighs 54 ounces and with battery 70 ounces.

The best result will come from building a plane which is matched to the chosen power train and is structurally optimized for electric power.

Q:
Are the AMA and FAI trying to eliminate the use of existing IC model engines?

A:
Nothing could be further from the truth. I am not aware (and I am reasonably well informed) of ANY movement to limit or reduce the use of IC model engines in control line aerobatics. You see they don’t have to. The society in which we live is doing a bang up job of seeing to it that if we want to continue to fly at many sites, that we modify the manner in which we do so. So if you want to fly “Shelf Line” (that the new event where old geezers sit at Formica tables in their polyester pants and white belts and drink coffee from melmac cups while engaging in exciting conversation about the models that line the shelves of their hobby rooms) then just stick your head in the sand. Personally, I want to continue to fly my models ON the CIRCLE at the PARK. That said, I think it will be some time if ever before the above organizations need to enforce a ban on IC engines. I fully intend on going to the VSC someday soon with a sparker.


Q:
Are the rules governing the use of electric models slanted in their favour?

A:
If you mean have the rules been modified to enable electric powered models to start and stop on command and thus be able to be used the answer is yes. If you mean is it a good idea to promote the use of modern technology to our new born child above, the answer is also yes. If you mean do they enjoy an unfair competitive advantage over existing IC engines the answer is no. At best, they are on a par. If you can think of a model that can not be powered in a competitive manner with a .90 two stroke and tuned pipe, then you are not current on the state of modern IC model engines. After all, the motor is only turning the prop, it is not moving the handle.

The rules are constantly under review and if ANY unfair advantage was perceived by the rules makers, it would be acted upon. This is the case with the rationalization of engine displacements to .90 for both two and four stroke.

Q:
Should electric power be allowed in OTS?

A:
IMHO, Unless and until the society in which we live or some other authority tells us we that we can not fly our old IC engines or we simply run out people interested in flying the event, I do not think that electric should be permitted. You see as much as I embrace the hi-tech world with open arms, I truly love the spirit of an event that was enacted to preserve the past. No electric in OTS. I have no issues with it being used in Classic although I think you would have a hard time putting a competitive package together.



If you love model aviation or all of aviation as I do, you will realize at some point that you have a responsibility to protect and preserve the best elements of what you have participated in and pass them on to someone else hopefully much younger that yourself. If control line flying survives for any great period of time, it will be with battery powered electric motors on the plane and young people who know what all of the gibberish at the top of this post is all about.


I welcome your comments.


Kim.

Well said, Kim!

Though we may differ on the model size we prefer, I'd say we're pretty much on the same track here...

Greetings,

Bruno

Nice post. I'll probably be sticking with IC engines, quite possibly with OS mufflers on other engines. But I heard it through the grapevine that PW is currently flying an old ImpAct forefather with electricity. I don't expect to see it at NW Regionals, but you just never know. Maybe another B-17... Steve

Steve Helmick
Renton, Washington
USA

>I welcome your comments.
>
>
>Kim.
>
I have only one...Excellent post.

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

Now, if I could just buy a 5 oz. battery with 4000 mah and 20C capacity for $10!!! Then I could risk it in a combat plane.

Excellent post on the subject of electric controline pattern. I work in the computer industry and the notebook computer is a major driving force in battery technology development. I keep hearing about an alcohol powered fuel cell under development for notebook PCs. You fill it up with alcohol and it starts making electricty. When it runs dry you refill it. It seems to answer all the charging problems and it uses a common product for power source. Don't know any more details, and as we know "The devil is in the details".

Kim is the best the three electric stunter flyers that I've personally witnessed, and the only one to complete a full AMA/F2b pattern. The problem is that all three people were existing piston-engine flyers, not new people brought in by the new technology.

I'm not sure what the worst-case scenario will be:

If the electric system performs as advertized, it will rise to the top and dominate all classes of stunt.

If the pioneers decide to share their technology, or it somehow leaks out, we'll be able to get back into game merely by spending $2,000 and building/buying new airplanes. Or perhaps some will spend the $2,000 on a fishing boat or some other new hobby.

If they're able to keep the secret, Stunt will be like Carrier and Scale, with only as many flyers (electric) as trophies.

>Kim is the best the three electric stunter flyers that I've
>personally witnessed, and the only one to complete a full
>AMA/F2b pattern. The problem is that all three people were
>existing piston-engine flyers, not new people brought in by
>the new technology.
>
>I'm not sure what the worst-case scenario will be:
>
>If the electric system performs as advertized, it will rise to
>the top and dominate all classes of stunt.
>
>If the pioneers decide to share their technology, or it
>somehow leaks out, we'll be able to get back into game merely
>by spending $2,000 and building/buying new airplanes. Or
>perhaps some will spend the $2,000 on a fishing boat or some
>other new hobby.
>
>If they're able to keep the secret, Stunt will be like Carrier
>and Scale, with only as many flyers (electric) as trophies.
>
>

Paul,


No, you are right, I wasn't brought in to control line flying by electric power. I was prevented from leaving by electric power because I was ready to quit!

I'm not sure there is any greater "worst case scenario" than not being permitted to fly at your club's flying field. Will electric power solve this? Maybe, maybe not.

There is nothing altruistic in what I did. I have competed at the top level for a long time and throughout that time have used only one other model (SkyWriter). It took me a long time to realize that everyone else had passed me by in the power and technology department. I was tired of being blown out of contests and tired of paying thousands of dollars to participate in those contests with only so-so results. I decided to do what any true competitor does when they are not winning, I changed my game.

First I tried out some concepts that I thought would be competitive on a piped model that I designed and won the Canadian team trial with(Classic),then when the final vote was taken to permit electric power I thought about who might be able to put a true full sized no-holds-barred world class electric stunter together and I saw my face in the mirror. I am a very hi-tech person and quite familiar with integrating disparate technologies together to build something better than the sum of the parts. I looked at what resources I could draw on and made some preliminary phone calls. Once I was convinced that we could do this, I made a vow to myself that I WAS going to take an electric powered model to the 2006 W/C's and that it WAS going to be competitive regardless of the effort needed to make it so. Thus was born SHOCKWAVE.

The rules permit it and I in no way will apologize for capitalizing on my strengths and trying to gain a competitive edge. Perhaps you think it fair that the flyers from your country have access to any number of top flight coaches with years of experience and knowledge. I have none. I practice by myself and always have. (Do you not think I would kill for a coach?)I'm not complaining but your flyers are capitalizing on decades of knowledge with IC engines, tuned pipes, etc. to gain a competitive edge. That is what I was attempting to do except by utilizing technologies I have more experience with. I guess in some small way I succeded. I personally hope that many of the people I compete against find electric power intimidating and will not take this path. I want to WIN!!. If that means that electric power ends up dominating control line aerobatics then that is what was meant to happen.

I can see that you think that you will never be given the key to the lost scrolls which contain all the SECRETS about electric power. Well, I have posted EVERYTHING I have done on the web for all to see. And if you only knew how stupid your statement was in light of whom I have shared this information with I hope you would be more than embarrased.

How much I (or anyone else) spend on this hobby/sport (trying not to offend either camp ) is entirely up to me. I drive a twelve year old car. I live in a modest condo, I have not had a good job in 6 years, I do not smoke and I rarely if ever drink. I spend a great deal of time helping kids and others who wish to try our hobby. If it had taken twice as much to put the plane on the circle in Spain I would have done it because I new I could. It was a challenge worth taking. It was fun!

Some people just never got over that fact that George Reeves died of a bullet wound. Suck it up my friend. You are only hurting the very thing that you love to do.

Kim.

While I certainly think that you will eventually see me flying an electric plane, it probably won't be for awhile. Just the costs will keep a lot of folks from using such a system in a competitive plane for some time yet. And the truth is, if I had the money today and wanted to start using an electric system, I wouldn't have the faintest idea of where to start or what to buy. I suspect that the future will hold complete articles and descriptions for masses that don't know a watt from a volt, but for now, it's a black art to many.

I have no beef against electric systems. But I think we are looking a couple of years before they are 1) readily available in some sort of "kit" form with all elements needed or at least instructions on what is needed in addition to the stuff included in such a "kit" and with instructions to work the thing that idiots like me can understand and 2) available at a price that is seen as a reasonable investment as compared to an IC system.

All things considered, I believe Kim is right and the time will come where if you want to fly at all, it will be with an electric system. Around here, folks are ridiculously sensitive to anything resembling a complaint. There can be 200 people engaged in an activity, any activity, and if one person complains, you are closed down. No recourse and no appeal. Any sort of tolerance for others is practically non-existent.

>Now, if I could just buy a 5 oz. battery with 4000 mah and
>20C capacity for $10!!! Then I could risk it in a combat
>plane.

Imagine getting bellcranked in the Lipos, though...

You left out GIGO! Smaller electrics are much more efficient than small IC. Just look at an R/C shock flyer.

Hey Kim,

F2b is the all-out World Championship Top Fuel event. Go for it. Good luck.

It would just be nice it we could save an event or two for those of us who prefer the piston engine.

>Hey Kim,
>
>F2b is the all-out World Championship Top Fuel event. Go for
>it. Good luck.
>
>It would just be nice it we could save an event or two for
>those of us who prefer the piston engine.

Paul,

You must be given credit that you have not given up to make yourself look rediculous.

You have even suggested that the "pioneers" of electric stunt might "keep their secrets" and not "share their technology". Is there any proof that you can muster to support such allegations and inappropriate information? Contrary to your poorly thought out statement, one does not have to look very long or hard to learn all about current technology and application of electric powerplants for CL Stunt models. You apparently do not understand that the attitude throughout the CL Stunt community is that there are no secrets. This applies to electrics, 4-stroke engines, tuned pipes, tank evolution, controls evolution, materials, flight trimming or whatever. To even suggest that the growing list of expert electric stunt flyers as well as other model enthusiasts with considerable expertise with electric power for model airplanes might keep their secrets is just plain wrong.

Maybe you have not yet noticed that your negative comments on another forum about electrics in Old Time Stunt seem to have not had much attention or traction.

Perhaps you can find some support to "save an event or two" for yourself. After all, you are a self professed participant in Combat, Racing and Carrier which right now do not have any provisions to allow electric motors. Maybe your energies would be better spent if you would "SAVE" those programs before they become tarnished with these dastardly electric gizmos.

I will admit, your persistence is getting to be enjoyable. Your posts are really getting to be funny.

>Hey Kim,
>
>F2b is the all-out World Championship Top Fuel event. Go for
>it. Good luck.
>
>It would just be nice it we could save an event or two for
>those of us who prefer the piston engine.


Paul I think you may have miss read Kim's post.He has already gone to the FIA F2B worlds in Spain and competed for Canada with his electric Shockwave.He has competed in the Worlds before also. Maybe I miss understood the way you said it but there it is.

Kim,
Great post. My hat's off to you for being a pioneer in a very difficult situation.

Personally I have no interest in flying electric but realize that it is indeed the future.

I'm too old and dogmatic, and enjoy what I know, too much to change. But, thanks to pioneers like you and Bob Hunt (and others) there is a choice to be made.

For your efforts to the Sport/Hobby...Thanks!

Look where electric was two or three years ago. Look where it is today. I guess that statement echoes Kim. Electric hasn't got me yet. I like to compete but am not serious about it. Rather play with my noisemakers. Which are real cheap the way I do it.

Many flyers in my club, however, are doing electric stunt or getting ready to. Of course Mike Palko's among us to do the math and keep up with the new stuff which is getting cheaper. A range of aircraft are being considered. One member flies an electric ARF Vector 40. Flies well. Didn't hear painful screams while the conversion from IC to Electric happened. No grousing and complaints. I think the conversion and assembly took a few weeks. I saw Mike put an electric system in an ARF P40 during the Brodak contest week. Didn't take very long. Would have flown it in profile, but there were a few bugs with the timer. Otherwise, if he'd been using a system he'd already tested and perfected for compatibility, the P40 would have been flying and competitive. I don't know why a new battery system/motor necessities junking a good flying plane. Bob Hunt converted a Caprice to electric, as many of you know. It was a Caprice set up originally for an internal combustion engine.


Actually, electrics are much less a hassle, from what I've observed. Cost can be hedged here and there with electrics, when starting out. If you've folks around who are in the know. Two battery packs are really enough for a typical day. Four or six flights easily possible. (I've seen it). I believe Mike Palko only had two battery packs when he initially competed at the NATs two years ago. Electric planes fly as well as IC, weight not a problem for a number of reasons. One thing is the battery pack can be located at the cg. Mike built his Silencer light. About 26 ounces for the complete airframe. This for a forty sized plane using an electric system equivalent in power to a 40 engine. All up weight was around 44 ounces. This system put together nearly three years ago. Builders who compete in Expert should be able to hit weights in that range. First off, no heavy motor mounts.


There are many advantages to electric. Many of them mentioned. One statement that struck me as making sense is as follows. I've heard flyers say that they fly better using electric power because they don't have to listen for an IC Engine that goes in and out of tune. They don't have to pay attention to engine sound, alert to engine power shifts. Instead, they give complete concentration to the flight. I heard Mike say that one day at our field. I think it was a spontaneous conclusion made at that moment. A thought having just occurred to him after flying electric for three years plus.

Frank Carlisle
proud member of R.C.C.D


Putting together an electric airplane is an easy thing to do if there is someone around to tell you what to do.
Contrary to Paul's comments about secrets (I hold Paul in pretty low regard)I've found that anyone doing well with electrics will give you everything they know to help you get started. I saw Rick Sawicki flying his early electric planes and told him it was cool. He let me fly his plane. Then he gave me a shopping list and all the support I needed to get an electric up and flying. I'm a charge and fly guy with no understanding about how it all works but I fly! I don't think Rick is the exception. Any of the guys into electric will help you get there. All you need is cash or a credit card and the desire.
There truly are no secrets.

This is an excellent thread!

I've been an electronics engineer (specialising in power electronics) for more than 40 years now. When I started transistors were just coming into use, and Texas Instruments had as not yet invented the IC. (Integrated Circuit - not Internal Combustion ) I actually started on tube technology in radiocommunication and instrumentation.

What this waffle is getting at is that progress can be amazing, in fact usually is amazing and especially so in "young" technology. What we accept as commonplace now was truly inconceiveable in the 1950's and 1960's.

Unlike my sons, I never buy current technology - I wait a year until the prices have dropped by half. This too will happen with electric C/L (and RC). If there's a market - and there sure is - the product will evolve. Electric is expensive now for the reasons given, mainly low production volumes due to the specialised nature of the components. The actual cost of the materials is not that high, and eventually that is what sets prices. You can buy a digital watch for a couple of $ now - and there's some quite advanced technology there. You can also buy a CD player for peanuts, and in those there is some really fierce technology, both electronic and mechanical.

Power sources will be the key. As someone said earlier, portable computing appliances (and other things) are driving the power source hard. Notice I did not say "battery" - that is because indeed fuel cells etc. MAY become viable. The ingenuity of the human mind when challenged is really amazing.

So, I'll wait a little until I can buy a viable electric system "off the shelf" for stunt. But when that does happen, indeed I WILL buy a system. Meanwhile, I'll keep my IC motors running as quietly as possible.

Charles

I'm in full agreement with the above. Electric has been around for awhile. I recall seeing early models of the Vought V143 flying with tethered power and control during WW2, I remember when the first FF was being sold by Aristo or Polks or somebody in the early 70s, I think. I remember reading about some of the early work by Fred Militky (I think I have the name spelled close to correctly). I even remeber an article in AAM while I was in the AF about the first flyable RC helicopter. I remember my first electric CL, a Cox Spitfire that flew with a high degree of mediocrity unless you were good at whipping. In the late 70s and early 80s, I remeber several EEs I knew in our RC club who experimented with electric RC without much sucsess. Then about 1988 o so, I started regularly flying a Goldberg Mirage showing that electric was finally getting practical.

Time will tell if electric CL will ever be competitive or practical. Fuel Cells? They have come a long way since I first did a report on them from an article in Popular Science about 1954, and they have come a long way since then, but still have a little way to go yet for our purposes.

Things take time to develop. Our senior electronics class completed our program work a couple weeks early, so the prof offered us an pportunity to study something new that wasn't in the curriculum. Something just coming out that might in the future replace the tubes we had struggled with. Something called transistors. There apparently were some in the computer we had inherited as a project from the preceding class. A Heathkit Analog. When I started on my current job, we were writing software on an Intel Series 2 Development system. 10 years later, we donated the unit to our local community college, and they fire it up once a class to demonstrate how far things come with time. You insert the 8" floppy, turn on power, go through a number of key strokes, then go to the cafeteria for qa cup of coffee. And people complain about how slow some of today's 3 year old computers are.

Time will decide if electric power will meet our needs in control line. I predict it will within the next 1 to 3 years.

I think smaller electrics have potential, too, perhaps not as all-out Stunt models, but for indoor flying on short lines, as Igor Burger showed us by flying the pattern with something like an RC Shock Flier. Those CD-ROM outrunners and matcing speed controllers are getting awful cheap.

>Time will tell if electric CL will ever be competitive or
>practical.

Uhh.... No, kind Sir, it is competitive already.
Been using it in last year's World Champs. I was the only limiting factor, not my equipment. And I could handle it, so it must have been practical
Would I like to improve on certain aspects? Shure, and that will take some hard work.

>Time will decide if electric power will meet our needs in
>control line. I predict it will within the next 1 to 3
>years.

I'm telling you, it is more than adequate already. But to see it out-performing all IC set-ups will take some time. But a lot less than some people dare to admit....

Right now electric is very practical and effective. The only real stumbling block is the cost of getting started, and the cost of batteries in the $150 range. Kind of like buying all the fuel for a plane up front. Not a real problem for IC engines, the fuel keeps OK for a year. But it is a bit problematical for electric when the battery can get done in, or do itself in, almost any time. I know I'd get real upset if I spilled 20 gallons of fuel one day at the flying field. Then add in the fact that for practical flying you need at least 2 and maybe as many as 5 or more batteries, it gets expensive.

>Right now electric is very practical and effective. The only
>real stumbling block is the cost of getting started, and the
>cost of batteries in the $150 range. Kind of like buying all
>the fuel for a plane up front. Not a real problem for IC
>engines, the fuel keeps OK for a year. But it is a bit
>problematical for electric when the battery can get done in,
>or do itself in, almost any time. I know I'd get real upset
>if I spilled 20 gallons of fuel one day at the flying field.
>Then add in the fact that for practical flying you need at
>least 2 and maybe as many as 5 or more batteries, it gets
>expensive.

Phil, you're talking a different kind of practical here then what I was thinking of. Didn't look at it that way.
You're right about the intitial cost and yes, I had a battery that died for no apparent reason. But since my traveling expenses are a multitude of those of my equipment, I don't complain.
By the way, I survived the W Ch on 3 batteries.

Anyway, I caught up on Bob...
At our debut W Ch in 1978 he won and I became 56th. Last summer he was 19th and I got 50th....

>Right now electric is very practical and effective. The only
>real stumbling block is the cost of getting started, and the
>cost of batteries in the $150 range.

...But it is a bit
>problematical for electric when the battery can get done in,
>or do itself in, almost any time. I know I'd get real upset
>if I spilled 20 gallons of fuel one day at the flying field.
>Then add in the fact that for practical flying you need at
>least 2 and maybe as many as 5 or more batteries, it gets
>expensive.

But that't the whole point, don't cha know?

If batteries cost $200 and only lasted one flight, that would be just fine with 2 or 3 guys who could afford it, of got 'em free at work.

In one of the RC columns, someone put up some figures on LiPo battery cost, battery life, and a couple other factors including the number of flights available from those packs. I did a couple quick calculations based on the fuel economy I was getting with 8 ounce tanks on my 40s and 45s, and even with 14 ounce tanks on a couple 60 sized aircraft I was flying, and figured for the same cost I could get almost 50% more flying on glow fuel for the money, and didn't need to pull a pack out of the plane for recharging and putting a freshly charged pack in it's place so I could go back up. I would guess if I had experience with electric CL, I would come up with approximately the same results.
The figures get a bit more even with NiMh packs, which are lower priced, but with a weight penalty. It might be a bit more even for small 1/2A and A sized planes, but there might be some weight concerns.
What it amounts to in my rather weak mind is fly whatever you want that fits into your particular situation. I might find myself having to go to electric CL in my location anyway. I have even been seeing more interest in electrics in our local FAC FF club.