Sport Versus Hobby ...

Some C/L purists (hmmmm, zealots, fundamentalists, elitists?) get their underwear in a knot if you refer to C/L as a "hobby." AND, heaven forbid if you use the word (even whispered) TOY!

I have some news for everybody on this subject ... TO EACH HIS/HER FREAKIN' OWN!

Personally, to me it's a hobby and my planes are toys! I don't understand why someone's Ferrari or snowmobile is fondly referred to as a toy and yet some folks jump out of windows in tall buildings if you so much as hint that their toy airplanes are toys. HEY! Toys are something you're supposed to have fun with. I do believe that Dale Earnheart, Jr. refers to what he does as a sport but that doesn't prevent me from having fun behind the wheel of my own car.

I love building model airplanes but I'm not a master builder. I do it for FUN.

I love flying control line but at age 71 I've yet to place better than one up from the bottom in a contest. I fly because it's fun!

Maybe building and flying model airplanes doesn't make me feel like I'm 12 years old again but 17 years old ain't too bad!

My point: I spent 46 years in a very competitive highly pressurized profession. Now it's time to play.

I kinda look at it as building being a hobby and flying being a sport, but that's just one opinion.

George

"building being a hobby and flying being a sport"

To me, building is a hobby, flying for fun is also a hobby, and competition for fun is a sport.

Paul

>"building being a hobby and flying being a sport"
>
>To me, building is a hobby, flying for fun is also a hobby,
>and competition for fun is a sport.
>
>Paul

To me the word "sport" is more synonymous with a team endeavor where one team is pitted against another. Thus we think of baseball, football, hockey, etc. However, golf? Bowling? Maybe we do it for fun or maybe for some it is an occuplation. But is it a sport? I don't know.

If I enter a chess competition, I don't consider that a sport. If I build a plastic display model of an airplane and enter it in a contest, I don't consider that a sport. I still have trouble thinking of us as individuals entering our little toy airplanes in competition (there, I said the word, "toy") and considering that a sport.

But, to each his own. Call it what you want. Just allow me to call it what I want.

Yeah, I'm not really anxious to see Control Line Precision Aerobatics on ESPN8 (The Ocho). I'm satisfied with the entertainment value, personal development and the fine company our hobby affords.

Derek

>Some C/L purists (hmmmm, zealots, fundamentalists, elitists?)
>get their underwear in a knot if you refer to C/L as a
>"hobby." AND, heaven forbid if you use the word
>(even whispered) TOY!
>
>I have some news for everybody on this subject ... TO EACH
>HIS/HER FREAKIN' OWN!

I refer to it as a hobby when I am being serious, and "toy airplanes" when I am talking about it as general. Hobby is probably correct for my money. While obviously I think there is a lot of value in the hobby, I get concerned when people take it too seriously or think that winning a few contests makes you some sort of hot-shot in general. I can tell you from direct experience that even winning at the highest level doesn't count for much once you drive out of the contest site parking lot! Nor should it, really - you aren't curing cancer nor bringing world peace.

The "sport" versus "hobby" controversy was created by John Brodak. John thinks that you will get more "coverage" if you call it a sport. It had been sort of a low-level argument than nobody really got too wound up over for years, but it was just another of the many aggressively-promoted efforts to "change" the, uh, activity. A few people agree with him, and I wouldn't doubt their sincerity. It's clearly not the prevailing opinion.

I think calling CL Stunt a "sport" lowers it to a simple performance activity. As I and many others have noted over the years, there's a lot more to this hobby than simply flying the airplanes. If it had been strictly about performance, the hobby would be dead or dying just like most other CL events (or, to be honest, most modeling events of all varieties). There's WAY more to it than a sport, and that's why I think stunt in particular has been so wildly successful. I don't want to belabor a point that we have hashed over again and again, but that's the crux of it.

Brett

I just have to put in my feelings. I started in 1947 with a strombecker piper cub. The challenges and successfully rising to the occasion are what it is all about for me. No mater what level of enjoyment you get to, if it isn't fun any more I will quit. Yes there are times when it is a great challange but that is what makes it fun (most of the time). There are some that take it serious sometimes, me included, and total enjoyment sometimes, me too.
It is my golf. The relaxation I have in the workshop can not be duplicatd any where.
Because I am a traveling sales man I get a lot of windshield time. I use that time to solve building problems and complete the work when I return home.
I am afraid we have lost many very good modelers due to the fact that they took it to seriously and could not stand to be second best.
Winning isn't every thing, just being with friends is.

> I refer to it as a hobby when I am being serious, and
>"toy airplanes" when I am talking about it as
>general. Hobby is probably correct for my money. While
>obviously I think there is a lot of value in the hobby, I get
>concerned when people take it too seriously or think that
>winning a few contests makes you some sort of hot-shot in
>general. I can tell you from direct experience that even
>winning at the highest level doesn't count for much once you
>drive out of the contest site parking lot! Nor should it,
>really - you aren't curing cancer nor bringing world peace.

This is a point we can agree on well said. To me it is Art. A sport is something you break sweat in and unless your in the summer heat you not sweating much. Racing is considered a sport but to me its racing. Golf is a sport (is it really?) not for my money! Everyone call it what you want. To me its in the Ballet category, I call it ART.

Brett,
This is not intended to be argumentive, and perhaps John Brodak was involved in the Sport/Hobby controversy, however I recall an editorial by Robin Hunt some years back discussing the merits of calling our "Hobby" a "Sport".
I don't remember everything Bob effused at the time but the general gist of the piece was that we could perhaps get more attention and cooperation from governmental agencies (Like Parks and Rec's), if we referred to our endeavor as a "Sport".
He may be right. In some cases these people are beaureaucrats that pigeon hole money and considerations by "buzz words". In other words if money is earmarked for "sports" it might be very difficult to get any of it for something considered a "Hobby". This argument has some merit.
What we call it among ourselves is totally unimportant and it's Toy Airplanes to me personally, but when I talk to anyone that might have any official or media status I would always use the term "Sport"... Just good politics!
This is not intended to demean anyone that holds a different opinion but we do have to live in a "big, unfriendly" world and a little "disguise" sometimes helps.

I am not sure what the "peanut gallery" spectators think it is. Ever heard these, or similar comments?

"Oh, you fly 'em on strings! My uncle has some, but he flies 'em remote control."

"My uncle's toy airplanes are like yours, but a lot bigger and faster."

And - - - It is always an UNCLE!

Larry Fulwider

OOOoooops!

I forgot to mention "COLLECTORS"!

I have "collected" about 150 engines from vintage 1930s to present. Most of them are engines that I always wanted but couldn't afford as a kid.

I love starting them and trying them out in airplanes. All of my planes have had at least one engine swap and some a half dozen. I belong to MECA but I've yet to attend a Collecto, and I don't consider myself a collector.

I'll probbly do the same thing with my engines as I do with my old motorbikes: Restore all I can to good running condition, ride the dickens out of them, hold back one favorite, and then take the rest (and the left over junk) to the biggest and best motorbike and scooter "big-doo" and sell everything at a h3llish profit.

Now, I've met some REALLY SERIOUS model engine collectors at Brodak's thingie and I'll tell ya this: I'm no COLLECTOR!

John,
Could you PLEASE call my wife and inform her that I'm a COLLECTOR? She refers to me as a pack rat...

cheers,
Ken

What a sore subject!! But I find as I age and see the general relative decline of FF and CL with repect to RC ARFS & etc, I don't really care what its called anymore. Further, if Sport is the magic word that will once again make us acceptable to the general public, let's do it (though I'm not convinced yet).

To me, Building is hobby, if there is sport, its in competitive flying, I can readily accept that. Again, if "Sport" is the buzz word that gets it done, I'm OK with that.

I agree with Sparky that "Art" truely describes fine modeling, but so does craftsmanship. These are the reasons that the term "Toy" urks me so badly. Sure, I have fun with it, and on a personal level that truely makes it a toy. But to present it to the public as a toy certainly will not promote the "Sport" aspect of it. In order to do that our models must become "equipment". That's an acceptable term to me, though to me my models are still small fully functional aircraft that carry killing and maiming potential that need to be addressed far more seriously then does a toy. Their operation must be performed safely and responsible.

The difference I see is not necessarily what we call or models, but how we present model aviation to the general public. Are we grown men playing with toys? Well, to us we are, but to make a respectable presentation to the public, we need to be Enthusiasts competing in a sporting endeavor, controlled, responsible, serious and INTERESTING!

Let's try to quit the unproductive terminology discussion and try to figure out how to:

1. Present our activity to the general public as a satisfying and worthwhile activity.
2. In doing so draw from the general public to grow the activity.
3. In that growth maybe just get the numbers required to gain some clout with city municipalities that will result in site support.

Whatever its called, to me its my hobby. But I've decided that the survival of my hobby depends on the public's impression of it. If I'm a noisy nuisance, I lose, and so do you. But if we are collectively responsible and creative, we can enjoy this for a long time to come.

Randy Ryan <><
AMA 8500
SAM 36
BO all my own M's

Whatever your personal comments here, it might behoove you to read Dave Brown's column on page 5 of the latest MA. Looks to me like the AMA may well be heading toward wanting our modeling activities to be rated as a "sport".
With me modeling is more of a disease from which I hope never to be cured.

Joe Just

Never Give up! Never Surrender!

I always remember the line from the book "Flight of the Phoenix" and I sort of quote "toy airplanes you wind up and let them run across the floor, model airplanes fly" or something like that. And yes, when I go flying I always tell my wife I am playing with my toy airplanes. But the statements about it being a "Ballet" and an "Art" did strike a cord with me. I find flying the pattern, such as I do, an artistic activity. Something I never felt flying R/C in all the years I did it.

Hello all,

It is said that there are only three sports: Hunting (as in: with hounds), Shooting, and Fishing...all the rest are just games.


Cheers


Harry

(none of the above....)

Whenever I tell someone that I fly model airplanes the standard reply is: "Oh, I did that when I was a kid", or something like that. Another reply is: "My 7-year old might want to do that". Toys seem to me to be something you buy that is pre-packaged and ready to play with, with very little effort exerted. They are usually made in China, some of the ARF's are close to meeting those requirements. I never bought the "Sport" line or designation, certainly not worth sueing over. To each his own, man, I could sure use some global warming! [photo not recovered: sipcof.gif]

After my first posting about Dave Brown's report on the AMA's possible wanting to name our hobby as a "sport" rather tha "hobby" I turned the page for Bob Hunts column.
I quote from his article on page 6.

"ARF's have allowed....to be able to enjoy our sport without...."

Yep, two of the AMA's top respected people using the forbidden word "sport"

Gee Bob Hunt, one of the best of our's saying the word 'sport"
Maybe, just maybe John Brodak is not entirely alone, or the cause of all the evil in the world.

Joe Just

Never Give up! Never Surrender!

>After my first posting about Dave Brown's report on the AMA's
>possible wanting to name our hobby as a "sport"
>rather tha "hobby" I turned the page for Bob Hunts
>column.
>I quote from his article on page 6.
>
>"ARF's have allowed....to be able to enjoy our sport
>without...."
>
>Yep, two of the AMA's top respected people using the forbidden
>word "sport"
>
>Gee Bob Hunt, one of the best of our's saying the word
>'sport"

No one said it was forbidden. The same discussion has been going for the 30+ years I have been involved. I still think the majority position remains that it's a lot more like a hobby than a sport.

I respect Dave Brown and Bob Hunt's position but that doesn't change the debate. I don't think the underlying reasoning really makes sense. But that's just me.

Brett

BIG SNIP

> No one said it was forbidden. The same discussion has been
>going for the 30+ years I have been involved. I still think
>the majority position remains that it's a lot more like a
>hobby than a sport.

Probably dependent on level of involvement.

>
> I respect Dave Brown and Bob Hunt's position but that
>doesn't change the debate. I don't think the underlying
>reasoning really makes sense. But that's just me.
>
> Brett

I certainly agree with your assessment Brett. I always figured the ploy to use the word sport was to make a better impression with the city fathers when asking for a flying field or even just premission to use a existing field. I always had my doubts that this would work. For instance, if those of us in the Portland area might approach the city council for another field, it might go like this.

Model rep. We would like to be able to use blank field to fly our model airplanes. They are controlled by cable wires and so are restricted to an area approximately 200 feet by 200 feet. Our activity is a great sport.

Portland Council OK, just how many are involved in this sport of model airplanes?

Model rep. There are probably 6 or 7 active model airplane sport flyers at this time.

Portland Council OK, what is the average age of these sport model airplane flyers?

Model rep. Well, the oldest is I think 74, I am 66 and the rest are in the middle 50's.

Pretty much end of story in my opinion. Calling it a sport means nothing. I might as well pi$$ off a few more by saying that IMHO, flying things like Bi-Slobs makes a very poor impression of our activity. It is demeaning to stunt, makes our models look like toys and give the public a silly view of our hobby. Grown men are like little boys, they must have their toys. Fire away!!!!!!!!!!!!

SNIP>>>>I might as well pi$$ off a few more by saying that IMHO, flying things like Bi-Slobs makes a very poor impression of our activity.

So why do I go to Schools, air shows, museums? To put out the word that we (control line) is alive…HOBBY
I go to contests for competing my skills against yours…SPORT
If I go to the Worlds and receive $$$ to fly…PROFESSIONAL

Ah, I just reeled in the first one!!!

>Ah, I just reeled in the first one!!!

AH Roy....so I can't have fun?

Why do I have to take my Contest planes out all of the time? HOBBY Cox planes..I still fly. HOBBY
MY thing is to have fun. HOBBY

Roy I know we’ve had this discussion before. I agree with a lot of principals.
However, saying that “FUN FLYING” BI-SLOBS, 1/2A is bad for the hobby. I know it’s not your thing.
Guess I’ll have to re-evaluate MY thinking between sport, hobby and fun…

Scott (just have fun)Riese

Scott, I am not saying that you are restricted from having "fun". What you fly is you own business, as it should be. I do think some people do irresponsible or frivolous acts under the guise of having fun. An example would be the pole bashing thing of a few years ago or flying C/L models into a gargage can. I think the use of the term, "having fun" can be a cop out. I am not including you in that group, but..........
You seem to have become the self appointed ambassador or public relations person for control line modeling in the Pacific Northwest. You might even be commended for your efforts. However, I believe using a Bi-Slob during these exibitions, at schools, museums, airshows, etc.,where ever you travel, is probably entertaining to your adoring audience, probably as entertaining as the crash they are waiting to see. I feel the Bi-Slob demonstration simply does not convey what C/L model aviation is about.
So, fly what ever you like. It is still a free country as far as I know. What I would ask you to do is to rethink your public relations work. What kind of image are you trying to present? I would hope that you would be trying to present a hobby that is educational, teaches math, science, economics, and a host of other skills. Or do you prefer the frivolous?? If you still do not understand,so be it. I will let it go and get on with other things

>Scott, I am not saying that you are restricted from having
>"fun". What you fly is you own business, as it
>should be. I do think some people do irresponsible or
>frivolous acts under the guise of having fun. An example
>would be the pole bashing thing of a few years ago or flying
>C/L models into a gargage can. I think the use of the term,
>"having fun" can be a cop out. I am not including
>you in that group, but..........
>You seem to have become the self appointed ambassador or
>public relations person for control line modeling in the
>Pacific Northwest. You might even be commended for your
>efforts. However, I believe using a Bi-Slob during these
>exibitions, at schools, museums, airshows, etc.,where ever you
>travel, is probably entertaining to your adoring audience,
>probably as entertaining as the crash they are waiting to see.
> I feel the Bi-Slob demonstration simply does not convey what
>C/L model aviation is about.
>So, fly what ever you like. It is still a free country as far
>as I know. What I would ask you to do is to rethink your
>public relations work. What kind of image are you trying to
>present? I would hope that you would be trying to present a
>hobby that is educational, teaches math, science, economics,
>and a host of other skills. Or do you prefer the frivolous??
>If you still do not understand,so be it. I will let it go and
>get on with other things


Hi Roy,

Oh, I don't know. I think, if kept in perspective, the occasional BiSlob flight at a C.L. demonstration wouldn't be a bad thing. I mean, we used to show cartoons before a showing of Gone With the Wind or Casablanca, didn't we. One of the things we would like to do is to capture the attention of kids and doing crazy things sort of fits that bill.

Sure, try to impress them with the "science" of the thing but also make it blatantly obvious that the "science" can be "fun" no matter what your age.

Ted

Hi Ted

My concern is how the adults perceive us. After all, if the parents do not get the right message, they will most likely be unwilling to support the kids interest. Parents support is more important that ever. The kids can't do it with a bicycle and lawnmower like I did over 50 years ago. Cheers.............

>Hi Ted
>
>My concern is how the adults perceive us. After all, if the
>parents do not get the right message, they will most likely be
>unwilling to support the kids interest. Parents support is
>more important that ever. The kids can't do it with a bicycle
>and lawnmower like I did over 50 years ago.
>Cheers.............

My parents supported me when I got into model airplanes. Building them kept me at home. Flying them kept me with other kids (and their parents) doing the same thing. We weren't out doing what a lot of kids are doing. ("Do you know where your kids are?" Answer, "No, are we supposed to?" I would hope so, and I would hope you would approve.)

Another thing came to mind in this "debate" of sport verses hobby. I also think of sport as an endeavor in which one does or can get paid for participating, and paid more for winning.

Thus golf is a sport that we sometimes take up as a hobby. Football, baseball, basketball, etc. are sports that we sometimes join in for pure pleasure whether we call it hobby or not. Fishing is a sport for a few and a hobby for many. Running is a sport for a few and a hobby for many. But our model airplanes?? The chase, even in competition, is for a certificate to hang on the wall or maybe a trophy of sorts. I think for most (if not all) it is just a hobby.

>Scott, I am not saying that you are restricted from having
>"fun". What you fly is you own business, as it
>should be. I do think some people do irresponsible or
>frivolous acts under the guise of having fun. An example
>would be the pole bashing thing of a few years ago or flying
>C/L models into a gargage can. I think the use of the term,
>"having fun" can be a cop out. I am not including
>you in that group, but..........
>You seem to have become the self appointed ambassador or
>public relations person for control line modeling in the
>Pacific Northwest. You might even be commended for your
>efforts. However, I believe using a Bi-Slob during these
>exibitions, at schools, museums, airshows, etc.,where ever you
>travel, is probably entertaining to your adoring audience,
>probably as entertaining as the crash they are waiting to see.
> I feel the Bi-Slob demonstration simply does not convey what
>C/L model aviation is about.
>So, fly what ever you like. It is still a free country as far
>as I know. What I would ask you to do is to rethink your
>public relations work. What kind of image are you trying to
>present? I would hope that you would be trying to present a
>hobby that is educational, teaches math, science, economics,
>and a host of other skills. Or do you prefer the frivolous??
>If you still do not understand,so be it. I will let it go and
>get on with other things


OH I agree ROY. That’s why we fly the spectrum of control line planes at these events. Slob’n is one. Finishing is another. Other disciplines as math, science, and other teachings are the involvement or evolution of the hobby. As with any hobby we all have to get wet before we can fly with eagles. I do see a lot of “WE SHOULD DO THIS TO PROMOTE” but it all comes down to money, location, and personnel. These are toys that fly, high-end toys that fly. WE make it what we want to get out of this hobby. RELAXATION.

I might as well pi$$ off a few more by saying
>that IMHO, flying things like Bi-Slobs makes a very poor
>impression of our activity. It is demeaning to stunt, makes
>our models look like toys and give the public a silly view of
>our hobby.

LMAO
That's funny Roy and I somewhat agree. Don't forget those goofy flying STOP Signs and Lawnmowers...good grief what a sport.

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

>I certainly agree with your assessment Brett. I always
>figured the ploy to use the word sport was to make a better
>impression with the city fathers when asking for a flying
>field or even just premission to use a existing field. I
>always had my doubts that this would work. For instance, if
>those of us in the Portland area might approach the city
>council for another field, it might go like this.
>
>Model rep. We would like to be able to use blank field to fly
>our model airplanes. They are controlled by cable wires and
>so are restricted to an area approximately 200 feet by 200
>feet. Our activity is a great sport.
>
>Portland Council OK, just how many are involved in this
>sport of model airplanes?
>
>Model rep. There are probably 6 or 7 active model airplane
>sport flyers at this time.
>
>Portland Council OK, what is the average age of these sport
>model airplane flyers?
>
>Model rep. Well, the oldest is I think 74, I am 66 and the
>rest are in the middle 50's.
>
>Pretty much end of story in my opinion. Calling it a sport
>means nothing.

That was very similar to my initial comment when I heard this. My example was going to the local sports director at the TV station, and asking for coverage (as was one of the claimed "advantages"). So, say I got to KPIX in San Francisco, ask to see the sports director - Hall of Fame Quarterback Dan Fouts. Now I get to spend 10 minutes convincing Dan Fouts to bump a story about the Niners, Raiders, Giants, A's, Sharks, Stanford, Cal, or whatever, and put on a story about middle-aged men flying little model airplanes in a parking lot? Same argument applies to any local paper in the area, and I'm pretty sure there's not going to be a Stunt Competition Call-in on sports radio.

IF it was going to make any difference in our coverage then I wouldn't necessarily be against it, even if I think it is a, uh, distortion of the truth. "Hobby" or "Sport" a minor point, in the big scheme of things, and it certainly wouldn't make a lot of difference to you and me and all the other people involved in it. It was the unsound reasoning behind it that bothered me. If some local paper or TV station has a slow news day, then, you might get an article or a picture of it, whether you call it a "sport" or a "hobby". If there are high-school intra-mural Lacrosse results or a water-skiing squirrel to fit in, it's not going to make it, whether you call it a "sport" or a "hobby". People aren't going to be fooled by semantics.

Face it, we wouldn't outdraw the water-skiiing squirrel or a scuba-diving dog (who had an entire SERIES, for years, on our major-market CBS station). If we can't even count on our AMA District VP to mention the 10 National Championships or WC placings won over the years by D10 competitors, I really don't think we are going to knock The Big Game off the local sports map.


> I might as well pi$$ off a few more by saying
>that IMHO, flying things like Bi-Slobs makes a very poor
>impression of our activity. It is demeaning to stunt, makes
>our models look like toys and give the public a silly view of
>our hobby. Grown men are like little boys, they must have
>their toys. Fire away!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know what you mean, and I slightly cringe with this sort of thing. But people enjoy their Bi-Slobs so who am I to say no? And the fact of the matter is that watching BiSlob flights is probably a better spectator experience than watching stunt. And more likely to get coverage, just like the squirrel. I really don't care to watch stunt flights unless I have some reason to and am somehow engaged (like judging or competing, or have been asked to help somehow. And I LIKE the event. I doubt that the flying lawnmower/Snoopy doghouses really hurt anything, overall.

I assume the appeal of stunt competition will always be very very limited, because if nothing else the standards to be competitive are so incredibly high. If it was easy, a few more people might become involved, but I know that either you nor I would be all that excited to making the event "easier" by lowering the standards. The challenge IS the appeal, to me. There are plenty of other similar events where the standards are immeasurably lower, like RC Sport flying. Those will always draw more people and have more general appeal than the high end of anything.

Another look at it, too - more people probably enter the NATs in the various stunt events NOW than at any time in history. The last 3 NATs have been as big as any, including the so-called Golden Age. The last 3 years have pushed the limits of the ability to deal with. So one wonders what more success we can stand

Back to the original post, I don't think it's AT ALL appropriate for anyone to *insist* or pressure anyone into calling it anything. I hadn't heard of that ever happening, frankly, before this thread.

Brett

Yup, yup.

Go ahead and call it whatever you want. I'll call it a hobby.

One thing I know for sure is that we'll never all call it the same thing.

Hey John,

C'mon down here and fly with m

Phil Coopy

Randy,
As per my comments to Brett above, I agree completely with your assesment.
Clear thinking!

Randy,

Watch out. If you call it an "Art", the government won't like you. Then you'll need to get permission to display. Probably get picketers

I tend to call it an activity primarily to avoid classifying it as a sport or hobby.

Hmmm...But then again call it ART and maybe I can get big fat government grant and scratch build that P-40 I been thinkin' of...

>Hmmm...But then again call it ART and maybe I can get big fat
>government grant and scratch build that P-40 I been thinkin'
>of...

Nah, call it art and they will probably subsidise your buying a real P-40.

Randy-

I very seldom do this, but you have stated your perspective so lucidly and eloquently that all I need add is that I am entirely with you on this. I cannot imagine anyone disagreeing seriously with what you have said. Thanks.

But I can't resist...On the sport vs. hobby front: there shouldn't even be contention on this. Aeromodeling IS a hobby. The use of models in any competition involving physical effort and coordination makes that a sport. Most sports are someone's hobby and many hobbies are sports. Were a few get the idea that these categories are mutually exclusive, I cannot imagine! I fail to see why anyone should care, except for the considerations mentioned by Randy and others, including Bob Brown in this month's MA editorial. Why has anyone been fighting over this?

Aeromodeling though is much more than just a sport or hobby. Art is high on my lists of both aspects, but I love the design aspects too. I often wonder why so often on these forums someone has to question or disparage - or RESTRICT - someone's enjoyment of something with such universal appeal.

As usual, FWIW.

SK

Well said. We must evolve to survive. But the truth is "you can tell the men from the boys by the price of their toys". My wife even calls my full size Skylane my toy. I'm cool with it. I'm from the old school where I don't care what you call me (within reason), just as long as you call me. If we publicly have to call our hobby a sport, lets have at it.

GUY B
AMA 14272

My take on it is that they can be one and the same. If you play golf, soccer, softball, bowl, touch football, or any other stick and ball sport after work for recreation, then that is a hobby also, in my opinion. People that participate in that manor do so for the exercise, stress relief, and escape from the hum drum work a day world that we all, or at least myself, build and fly model airplanes. If you get a paycheck for it, then you can consider it a profession. Some consider what we do an avocation. Some call it a passion. I don't care what you call it as long as you don't call me late for supper!
Have fun,
Dan McEntee

Here's what I've learned on this thread so far:

Anything that you repetitively do on a card table, such as bulding model airplanes, is a hobby.

Anything you do competitively on a ball field, such as flying model airplanes, is a sport.

Anything in between is just plain old fun.

Perhaps in the future the Walker Cup winner may be named ESPN's athlete of the year. Kinda like whats his name, "Tiger Something" named Athlete of the year a few years ago. I really do believe the average human can walk eighteen holes on a golf course and swing a club. Unless of course you are physically handicapped. Some of these so called athletes may have extrodinary "skills" but to me that hardly makes them an athlete. To me Golf is on par with bowling as far as athletic abiity goes. Now I am in now way demeaning those activities but lets seperate the real athletes from the non athletic sports.

I use to play varsity softball in the military and did a lot of traveling for the base I represented. I took it very seriously and hated losing. My model airplanes I consider just a hobby and don't take it too seriously but do enjoy the fun when I am competing.

Go into your local Sport Shop, and ask for some C/L stuff. On the other hand, my local hobby shop does not have to much C/L stuff either. I like to think of it as craftsmanship and art also, but it still comes under the heading of hobby for me. Altho; Flying with my friends is great sport, at contests, or just getting together to fly. I am not sure what to call it, but I have enjoyed it in several different forms for many years. I may be somewhat of an introvert, as I love spending hours and hours alone in my shop. Back in the 40's and 50's, it was almost the great American past time. To me it still is.

Sport synonyms : hobby , game, activitey.
Definition:
1. Relating to or used in physical or recreational activities.
2. An individual or group competitive activity involving physical exertion or skill, governed by rules, and sometimes engaged in professionally.
3. An active pastime participated in for pleasure or exercise.

And many more of the same.

I am , for some lame reason, always amazed that people make up their own definition of words. So many seem to want to define a word based on what they want it to mean rather than it’s true or intended meaning in the English language. Kinda like making up meanings for the rules not in the rule book.
You say potato, I say___!


RO

Hi Richard and all interested............

My point is not if our activity is a hobby or a sport. My point is that calling it a sport does not really change the public's perception one bit. We are seen as flying those toys on strings when we all know there is a real difference between a modern pattern ship and a Cox plastic thing. That is the reason I dislike the Bi-Slob exhibition for example. It simply does not represent a skilfully constructed and flown model airplane. Much the same as a destruction derby, entertaining to some, does not represent a skillful driver in a race car.

(snip)
>And many more of the same.
>
>I am , for some lame reason, always amazed that people make up
>their own definition of words. So many seem to want to define
>a word based on what they want it to mean rather than it’s
>true or intended meaning in the English language. Kinda like
>making up meanings for the rules not in the rule book.
>You say potato, I say___!
>
>
>RO

This is my point, Richard. There are multiple definitions given for the word "sport" in the dictionery. So which one applies? It depends on which way you view it. I view a sport as... Someone else views it differently.

Although I may wear a sport shirt and sport a (you insert the "whatever") and be a good sport about it, I still may not be engaged in a sport as such. It is such a broad word that we can do most anything with it. But since we aren't doing this for profit, and for the most part engage in the endeavor as individuals (whether building in the basement or flying on the practice field) I feel that the word "hobby" gives a better description of the, er...hobby.

When I say "This is a hobby and I built it myself or fly it in competition" people understnad. When I say "This is a sport and I am one of the participants" people want to ask what team I am on.

When I say
>"This is a sport and I am one of the participants"
>people want to ask what team I am on.


Why Leonard that is easy, Team USA, of course!

Chris...

Gee....I don't know Len, there are lots of individual sports. Golf, swimming, running, tennis, skiing, and I seriously doubt that anyone ever called Javelin throwing a "hobby". Certainly hunting and fishing is not a "Team" Sport. Why is Model airplane flying different? Nobody ever accused my competitive shooting of being a hobby.

>Gee....I don't know Len, there are lots of individual sports.
> Golf, swimming, running, tennis, skiing, and I seriously
>doubt that anyone ever called Javelin throwing a
>"hobby". Certainly hunting and fishing is not a
>"Team" Sport. Why is Model airplane flying
>different? Nobody ever accused my competitive shooting of
>being a hobby.

Funny, because when your fill out a profile you are often asked "what is your hobby?" And people put in there "Golf, swimming, running, tennis, skiing"...and, yes, even "shooting".
Look at the profiles on this forum for more details.

It is just a matter of how you look at it. Certainly not something that we need to define or tear each other's hair out over.

>Here's what I've learned on this thread so far:
>Anything that you repetitively do on a card table, such as bulding model airplanes, is a hobby.
>
>Anything you do competitively on a ball field, such as flying model airplanes, is a sport.
>
>Anything in between is just plain old fun.

Gee John,

What is it called when you fly one of those small rubber models off a card table?

George

>Gee John,
>
>What is it called when you fly one of those small rubber
>models off a card table?
>
>George

A Kamakazi. Mine just kind of nose dived into the earth.

>What is it called when you fly one of those small rubber
>models off a card table?
>
>George


ROCT

And, if you are going to a College with military courses offered, and you also fly these planes, you are :

ROTC flying ROCT.

Currell

A couple of definitions from Wikipedia:

Sport - is an activity that is governed by a set of rules or customs and often engaged in competitively. Used by itself, sports commonly refer to activities where the physical capabilities of the competitor are the sole or primary determiner of the outcome (winning or losing), but the term is also used to include activities such as mind sports and motor sports where mental acuity or equipment quality are major factors. All sports have a winning player or team and a losing player or team. If there is no loser or winner its not a sport.

Hobbies - are practised for interest and enjoyment, rather than financial reward. Examples include collecting, making, tinkering, sports and adult education. Engaging in a hobby can lead to acquiring substantial skill, knowledge, and experience. However, personal fulfillment is the aim.

What are hobbies for some people are professions for others: a game tester may enjoy cooking as a hobby, while a professional chef might enjoy playing (and helping to debug) computer games. Generally speaking, the person who does something for fun, not remuneration, is called an amateur (or hobbyist), as distinct from a professional.

An important determinant of what is considered a hobby, as distinct from a profession (beyond the lack of remuneration), is probably how easy it is to make a living at the activity. Almost no one can make a living at cigarette card or stamp collecting, but many people find it enjoyable; so it is commonly regarded as a hobby.

Just food for thought.
Regards,
Dave Cook

(snip)
>Almost no one can make a living at cigarette card or stamp
>collecting, but many people find it enjoyable; so it is
>commonly regarded as a hobby.
>
>Just food for thought.
>Regards,
>Dave Cook

And they even have competitions where people display stamp collections and coin collections--or plastic model airplanes.

But just because there are competitions and people win trophies, doesn't mean they now call it a sport instead of a hobby.

(No physical exertion here. Is that the defining word? Watch Fancher fly sometime and you will call it a hobby.) (Sorry, Ted, I couldn't resist that.)

Leonard,
When Matt wins a berth on the US Team and needs it to be termed a sport to allow shipment of his model on an airliner, does it then become a sport?
Chris...

Chris,

The political "truth" will OUT!!!!

MY, MY....

Sometimes compromises must be made, Hmmmmmm.

>Leonard,
>When Matt wins a berth on the US Team and needs it to be
>termed a sport to allow shipment of his model on an airliner,
>does it then become a sport?
>Chris...

Do the airlines require that? Maybe we could hitch a ride on your Pitts Special.

All I know is if I am on the same airline as Shieks, I am not about to address him by his first name. (Hi Jack)

>>Leonard,
>>When Matt wins a berth on the US Team and needs it to be
>>termed a sport to allow shipment of his model on an
>airliner,
>>does it then become a sport?
>>Chris...
>
>Do the airlines require that? Maybe we could hitch a ride on
>your Pitts Special.
>
>All I know is if I am on the same airline as Shieks, I am not
>about to address him by his first name. (Hi Jack)


I don't know if it is going to go that way for every airline, but I read something about it lately and the easing of transport problems if the model boxes were referred to as "Sporting Equipment" in reference to international travel.

No, Pitts is too small to carry anything but a change of shorts.

Good idea, but maybe one shouldn't call him by his last name either, especially as spelled in your post!

Chris...

>>>Leonard,
>>>When Matt wins a berth on the US Team and needs it to
>be
>>>termed a sport to allow shipment of his model on an
>>airliner,
>>>does it then become a sport?
>>>Chris...
>>
>>Do the airlines require that? Maybe we could hitch a ride
>on
>>your Pitts Special.
>>
>>All I know is if I am on the same airline as Shieks, I am
>not
>>about to address him by his first name. (Hi Jack)
>
>
>I don't know if it is going to go that way for every airline,
>but I read something about it lately and the easing of
>transport problems if the model boxes were referred to as
>"Sporting Equipment" in reference to international
>travel.
>
>No, Pitts is too small to carry anything but a change of
>shorts.
>
>Good idea, but maybe one shouldn't call him by his last name
>either, especially as spelled in your post!
>
>Chris...
>

Ach du lieber, mea culpa. No "i" and two "e"s. We surely don't want no shiek involved in the hijackin' of an airline, now, do we?

This is the greatest forum I have ever read and participated in. So many opinions and excellent ideas.I will continue to subscribe to this forum. Sounds to me that everyone is benefiting from it and the many diverse subjects.Knowing your in control is what its all about. George Eckhardt

Cabin fever has set in. Our next debate is...


Less Filling . . . Tastes Great

>Cabin fever has set in. Our next debate is...
>
>
>Less Filling . . . Tastes Great

Yeah, here I am in Indianapolis. The Colts are in the Super Bowl. And I am thinking spring training starts on the 14th of February for the St. Louis Cardinals. (Did you know that Indianapolis is the largest city in the US that does not have a major league baseball team? Just thought I would throw in a little sports trivia.)

>>Cabin fever has set in. Our next debate is...
>>
>>
>>Less Filling . . . Tastes Great
>
>Yeah, here I am in Indianapolis. The Colts are in the Super
>Bowl. And I am thinking spring training starts on the 14th of
>February for the St. Louis Cardinals. (Did you know that
>Indianapolis is the largest city in the US that does not have
>a major league baseball team? Just thought I would throw in a
>little sports trivia.)

Heck, that's nothing. I live close to Cleveland and they don't have a major league baseball team either! (Don't even mention the Brown )

>Cabin fever has set in. Our next debate is...
>
>
>Less Filling . . . Tastes Great

Better clear it with R.O. first.

Ted

Maybe a silly observation, but all my airplane stuff comes from hobby shops. BUT back in the dark ages all the sporting goods stores in the very small town where I lived sold guns and model stuff. They did NOT carry basketballs and sweats. There were 2 sporting goods stores, by the way, both long gone now. I still have stuff of both types that I purchased from them.

Yeah. I bought all of my first models from sporting goods stores in Elkhart. Well, not quite - the world's heaviest Yak-9, completed 40 years later an still unflown, came from a SHOE store that sold CL stuff! Later there were two "hobby" shops close enough to use.

SK

My Dad opened a small sporting goods shop and I and my buddies ordered all our flying stuff wholesale.

Across the causeway in Brunswick, Georgia, a PAWN SHOP was the only place that sold gas model stuff. That's what we called it then ... GAS MODELS.

So, here am I at the end of a long list of opinions. And here's mine: Model plane activity is a HOBBY>>>>

I believe a HOBBY is an avocation designed to challenge and exercise either the brain, body, or both. Unless model plane building is your primary professional source of income, it is a HOBHY.

I'm convinced that my 60+ years of model building has contributed to my present good health, both physical and mental.

How many stories have you heard where some bloke retires from his daily grind at age 65, and then soon dies for lack of something worthwhile to occupy his mind?

Floyd in OR

Hi Guys:

I've been reading the posts on this thread and my lip is impressively swollen from biting it hard and often. I really wanted to stay out of this one, but, alas, here we go...

The reason that I don't post too much on any forum is that I get an unfair advantage in the amount of "ink" I get to use to influence others by virtue of my monthly editorial in Model Aviation. They say familiarity breeds contempt and if I get to write stuff that cannot be easily rebutted in my column and also forward my thoughts and opinions here I'm likely to wear out my welcome. I'll risk it on this occasion...

Does it really matter what label we put on the activity that we all enjoy so much? Is it not more important that we at least try to package ourselves in a form that the general public will find acceptable? I don't care personally if you call the endeavor Fred! The point is we are not gaining the use of fields on which to fly by following our present course. And by that I don't mean just the label we put on our pastime.

One of the things that really annoys me is the fact that there is so much available in supported recreational activities for those who are sports minded, and so little for those who are technically minded. Like the Romans of old it seems that semi-violent ground acquisition games and not-so-violent team sports are accepted while the more esoteric and scientific pursuits like model airplane flying are distained for some unexplained reason. Perhaps we need to study why we are not being welcomed with open arms by Joe Q. Public rather than continue on our historical course and continue to be misunderstood and rejected. It is not, or at least should not be our thought to be "us against the world" in my humble opinion.

One thing I have learned the very hard way is that when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change (Thank you Dr. Wayne Dyer...). If we continue to expect others to suddenly open their minds and accept us after years of un-acceptance, we are truly kidding ourselves. If we say that "We don't care what you think of us," we are going to insure that they continue thinking of us the same way they always have. We need to break the mold and push our agenda into the consciousness of the public in a positive manner. And we need to make them think that they thought of it! (Thank you Mr. Dale Carnegie...)

I'll float a couple of random thoughts here and a few of them may be very unpopular (they were to me at first...).

The world of RC flying has grown significantly over the past few years with the introduction of the ARF Park Flyer type model. Interestingly the membership in AMA has declined over the same period. It seems that recreational modeling has arrived in very large numbers, but those who are trying it for the first time are not seeing any advantage in joining up with an organization that, on the surface, doesn't offer them anything that they need. That point is a subject for another spirited thread I'm sure!

These Park Flyer types are not organized or linked together in any way, and yet they are having some pretty good success in finding places to fly without too much trouble. Right or wrong they have read the box that their airplane came in and it said: Park Flyer. They apparently feel that they have the right to fly at recreational parks just because some very clever marketing man came up with a name for a type of model that seemed to suggest that they were entitled.

Yes, there have been some problems in some areas with these aero-squatters being told that they do not have the right to simply use any field at their discretion. But - and it's a big but - there are so many of them doing it that many local governments have thrown up their arms in resignation and acceptance. Numbers (votes?) do make a difference. These new generation aero-enthusiasts are blissfully unaware of our plight and our struggles over the years. In some cases they are helping our cause and in other cases they are hurting our cause. We need to focus on the common denominators of the successes and try to duplicate the results in other venues.

Here's the part that I was dreading to write. Please do not think that I'm trying to forward a personal agenda with the following. I'm not. All I'm going to do is point out one of the common denominators: Noise!

CL was thrown off of sports fields years ago as civilization crept up on the boundaries of those fields. A collective non-tolerance for anything that infringed on individual's rights was justification enough to cause the ban to be enforced. Noise was cited as the main reason for outlawing modeling from local/urban sports complexes. Isn’t it strange that the noise generated by a spirited ballgame didn't get the same negative result...?

The noise generated by accepted sports was coming from the many sons and daughters of the locality. Those who might have been inclined to protest this type of noise knew that it was a losing battle and they simply accepted that noise as a fact of life. They changed the way they looked at things...

If we even pretend that we want to aspire to the legal use of sports fields when they are not in "official" use, we must increase the pressure on the community to see the need for and benefit of our pastime and then label it as something they can understand. Then they will eventually accept it. That means we must generate some numbers! We cannot rely on any national organization to do this. We must start our own programs and keep our eye on the ball....field.

One of the things that has recently made this seemingly impossible task a bit more feasible is the electric ARF CL model. Never thought I'd be forwarding this particular thought, but the quiet ARF may just be the savior of our pastime (Note how I'm using words other than hobby and sport...?). Yes, even those of us who are die-hard builders must admit that the ARF is a tool that may open doors (gates?). If we can institute programs that offer a free and positive experience to local groups or individuals then we may be able to increase our numbers to the point where we are accepted.

The Doppler Effect may be the root cause for CL being eighty-sixed from the public's eyes and ears. The sound of our model's circulating with the "wow....wow" sound may be music to our ears, but it is to John Homeowner the equivalent of what rap music is to the average middle-aged baby boomer. Out of sight, out of mind? How about out of earshot, out of mind?

Many of you are thinking that just because I have "gone to the dark side" (Interesting analogy, as when I think of electric, I think also of light...) of electric flight, and I'm just trying to promote it here. Not so. In fact I had no thought to even try electric again after my first experience with it several years ago. (Larry Sribnick of SR Batteries conned me into retro-fitting my son's RD-1 with an electric system back in the early 1990s, with far less than acceptable results...) What made me try it was the necessity of changing my practice schedule to early mornings due to my lifestyle which has me working from 8:00AM to 5:00PM at Model Aviation duties and then from 6:00PM to 8:30PM as a Site Coordinator and State Licenser for the sate of Pennsylvania's Motorcycle Safety Program (Too lucrative to turn down!). During the flying season I also work, teaching Motorcyle Safety 11 hours on Saturday and 11 hours on Sunday! (Hey, I like new toys, and this is a way to afford them!) When can I fly? Early in the morning! Can I run my glow engine at the local park at that time? Well, you get the point. Electric power done properly does not emit the Doppler Effect in enough volume to be heard more than a few feet, and hence I'm flying blissfully while the locals sleep.

I don't want this rant to turn into a commercial for electric flight, but it does serve up one alternative than we could/should consider. Getting the local newspapers to come out and cover such an unusual pastime done at such an unusual time (from first light to 8:00AM) should be an easy task. When they arrive to report on the activity the key is to get them to write a piece that enhances our chances. We do that by selling ourselves as something that is already accepted by the public: a sport.

That was the long way round Robin Hood's barn to get to the point that we need to package ourselves in many ways that are acceptable to the public. We cannot expect them to embrace a totally new concept. Play on the key phrases and words that they have already accepted.

Perhaps we need to start another thread with only positive thoughts towards the many things we all can do as individuals and as groups to promote our (choose one) sport, pastime, hobby, affliction, etc. to the public. Perhaps if we included them rather than alienating them we might stand a better chance.

For the record, and to get back on point, I'm voting that we call this thing a sport in public. What we call it (or what our wives call it) in private doesn't really matter to our long-term survival.

Respectfully - Bob Hunt

Holy Smoke! Where do you guys get the time to write all this stuff? Aren't you supposed to be down in the basement, building this season's new contest ship?

But it was interesting to read all the posts. Good points all!

Here's a saying to think about:

"The fun is in the flying, but the benefit is in the building!"

Next time you guys have a spare minute (ahem!)take a look at your state's Standards of Learning for, say, 3rd to 8th grade. You should be able to find them on the web under your states educational area. Sit down and make yourself some notes about how building model airplanes supports various individual Standards of Learning. You will find them in the Mathematics and Sciences SOLs. Now you can go to your nearest local grade or middle school and offer to help them improve their Standards of Learning Scores in math and the sciences. Tell them Scott sent you.

See, it's really not a hobby or a sport after all, but an educational activity!

Scott,

That's a great idea. I especially like "The fun is in the flying, but the benefit is in the building!" Some bumper stickers should be printed.

Howard Rush

Any "sport" I can think of has somebody somewhere making big bucks doing it. I can't think of anybody making big bucks playing with toy airplanes.

K.I.S.S.

/\/\/

Well, as someone who has personally seen a local flying field come into existence for a one dollar per year lease because of the word "sport", I'm all for it.

I do see it as a physical out door activity, at least the flying part. Heck, we have World Championship Teams for crying out loud.

And, just to throw a little more fuel on the fire of "when did all this hobby/sport" hyphenated talk start, here's a little ditty from Art Schroeder back in 1980 MAN where he uses the term in an off hand manner:

EricV

[photo not recovered: 22042.jpg]

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

Building the models, and just everyday relaxation flying to me is a hobby. The practice to be competitive, to learn any kind of precision flying, or the physical work and conditioning to become a decent flyer of things like free flight hand launch glider or Nordik towline glider converts what we do into a legitimate sport.

In fact, I recall reading that there was some talk about banning flying in a European country until the National equivalent of our AMA came up with medical research, I think I remember from Brasil, showed that the conditioning and work needed to be competive in certain aspects of International Model Airplane competition brought our competitors to a level with any other sport, even up to the level achieved by members of Association Football (Soccer)players, and above the level needed for other recognized sports like Golf, and definitely from the psuedo-sport being publicized on sport TV called 'Texas hold'em'.

We are definitely justified in thinking of what we do as either a Hobby, a Sport, or as the hyphenated "Hobby-Sport".

I believe that one of the current periodicals has a report on a model plane event with the winner taking home $25,000. Nonetheless, no dictionary definition I've seen for "sport" mentions money, and most people participating in sports earn no money through their participation. For every pro, there are many amateurs.

As I posted somewhere else. Many, if not all, sports are some people's hobbies, and many hobbies are sports. The terms are not mutually exclusive. Aeromodeling has its sporting aspect. My participation has thus far been in modeling and flying as a hobbie and an interest, but those who fly competitively are most definitely also participating in it as a sport.

SK

It is interesting how people define sport and hobby, even my dictionary gives a rather loose and unsatisfying definition.

To me though a sport is something powered by human physical fitness, speed, strength or endurance. It is not sufficient to rely on coordination only or you might class computer shoot em up games as a sport.

So I think of aero modeling as a hobby.

Free flight might come closest to a sport as they sprint off across country chasing their "TOYS"

Not sure how fishing would fit in some forms are more like hunting, searching out and stalking the quary, requiring fitness and endurance in difficult terain but others are way too sedentry for me to think of as sport.

Ken

Sports get much more TV coverage than hobbies.

To me, a sport is an event in which one competes against another individual(s) or team, to determine the better of the two in that given event. A hobby is something that is done for the sake of casual pleasure, and/or occupying one’s time, and should not be competitive - period. To me, this is cut and dried, black and white. I have always wondered how the term “sport flyer” came into model aviation. Whether it is C/L or R/C, the term, as it is typically used today, denotes a person who is non-competitive, and just goes out and flies for fun. I think there have been certain organizations formed over the years that focus on competitive building and flying, and to me, the formation of such groups clearly has been an attempt to delineate the hobbyist from the competitive flier. I am not suggesting that sport (competition) can’t be fun or a means of occupying one’s time, but once the competitive line has been crossed, it is no longer considered “just a hobby” in my book.

But at the end of the day, who cares what we call it? Whether you fly competitive C/L (stunt, combat, carrier, or whatever), or not, if you are having fun, don’t sweat the label.

Maybe I see the world differently and I am wrong

Pete Giammona, (a hobbyist type hopefully turning to a competitive/"sport" type this year)
Reno, NV

>To me, a sport is an event in which one competes against
>another individual(s) or team, to determine the better of the
>two in that given event. A hobby is something that is done
>for the sake of casual pleasure, and/or occupying one’s time,
>and should not be competitive - period. To me, this is cut
>and dried, black and white. (snip)

Definitions are hard to pin down. I collect chess sets as a hobby. I play the game for blood. I don't plan to lose. Now, since the game of chess is competitive pitting one individual against another to determine the better of the two in that given event, does that make it a sport? Hmmm.


>I have always wondered how theterm “sport flyer” came into
>model aviation.

Our English language is peculiar, to say the least. Sometimes words can have opposite meanings or opposite words can have the same meaning. You can walk into a room where a party is going on and ask "What's going on here?" or you can ask "What's coming off here?" and it will have the same meaning. So I guess in this case a "Sport flyer" is one who does not compete in a sport. Makes perfectly good sense...uh, maybe.

I've seen chess listed as a "sport." However, while I do not see physical conditioning as necessary to all sports, I think that if there is competition, and some form of physical effort that is a MEASURE of your prowess (can be strength, endurance, or simply coordination of physical movements depending on muscles), then it's a sport. That sport can also be a hobby. A hobby can be a sport - or not - depending on competition and kind of effort. Some of that is probably more connotational than strictly by definition. As I say to the wifely one sometimes, "It's not a problem." So use the term where appropriate and advantageous.

SK

Serge,
There you go injecting common sense in to a perfectly good argument.

This does make a lot of sense!

>
>Free flight might come closest to a sport as they sprint off
>across country chasing their "TOYS"

Ken, seen a good F2C race recently? Finding pilots who are fit enough, and prepared to stay fit enough, is a major problem - In Oz all the top F2C pilots have a training programme, usually cycling,running, swimming, basketball or squash - or all of these!

Hi Friends

I felt like saying something concerning this issue. First and foremost isn't a hobby and a sport?

Rigidly trying to box or define it likewise makes little sense to me.

CL stunt has some very complex qualities that cross over into both a hobby and a sport.

The competitive element I think really characterizes the sporting aspect of stunt. When one considers a sport one variable that jumps out is the competitive feature of the sport.

CL stunt is also a hobby, a hobby with a very artistic quality. I think thats one feature that separates it from a sport. We are creating pieces of art, maybe building and ceating a NASCAR type automobile for racing is Art too.

I dont know I try and evalute or define this thing I do called CL stunt in very broad terms.
I think when we try and stuff it into one particular box (hobby vs sport) we lose sight of all its varying qualities and characteristics.

Identifying it as a sport isn't going to help promote the event in my thinking..Identfying it as genuinely as possible which will bring all of stunt's richness to the description seems like the right way to approach this issue to me.

Just wanted to add to the comments.

thanks david eyskens not gitslide.....

I would just think that if we could start giving more thought to considering that the flying of model aircraft, with the attention to developing eye-hand co-ordination, especialy for formal competition, is in fact a Sport, maybe it could help raise the respect level of non-participants, especially when there is a need to either defend a current flying site, or to obtain a replacement or even open a new site.

Hey, if Sports Channel can present some ludicrous couch potato non-activity like Texas Hold'em as a sport, why shouldn't we get at least as much consideration?!

Just a matter of pride and prestige.

Bob,
Thanks for posting on this subject. I think you actually started all this discussion years ago.

I agree completely with your conclusions and as I stated earlier, try very hard to present CL flying in that manner.

There seems, however, to be a lot of resistance from many people that have the most to gain from enbracing this philosophy.
Go figure...

I understand the BBC is broadcasting a TV show on the British RC and CL Nats tonight. Incidentally, In England model aviation is an officially recognized sport.

>I understand the BBC is broadcasting a TV show on the
>British RC and CL Nats tonight. Incidentally, In England model
>aviation is an officially recognized sport.

If that's the case, hopefully one of our Brit or BBC enabled SSW readers will record the show.

V/r

Bob

Looking at this post about Brittain recognizing Model Aviation as an actual sport, it reminded me that the source of a statement about a European country preparing to ban model airplane flying until medical evidence was found regarding the physical conditioning needed for competition was in an Aviation Model International, and the country was in fact England.

Apparently being recognized as a sport could have tremendous impact.

>SNIP....................>
>For the record, and to get back on point, I'm voting that we
>call this thing a sport in public. What we call it (or what
>our wives call it) in private doesn't really matter to our
>long-term survival.
>
>Respectfully - Bob Hunt
>

Hi All,
I don't post here a lot, but I read most things posted here. Bob's post strikes a definite chord with me. I have seen a number of local flying sites both gained and lost due to poor public relations. PR has become very important. We used to have a number of open fields which were private land that no one objected to if we flew on. Now (at least in our area) the only decent open spaces left are government controlled of one kind or another, whether county or federal. This means we have had to convince a government body to take the risk of letting us fly on their property. Having dealt with government entities for over 25 years, I know for sure that if you describe something in a way the decision maker is familiar with, using semantics that they can respond to, there is a much greater chance of getting the point across as well as getting a positive decision. And public officials know what a sport is. Because of this, we have stressed the "sport" aspect very strongly to the public officials who control the land we now use. In significant part, we did this to compete with the soccer/baseball/football/etc *sports* players who also wanted use of the land. (And also by the way, HORSESHOE sports players!!) This has helped us get (and keep!) flying sites and in one case, the county government not only leased us the land for a very nominal fee, they paid for a number of improvements to get it ready for use. *WE* call it a hobby to ourselves and just smile. But to those who are unfamiliar with it (especially those in the public eye), it is presented as just as much a sport as the other competitors for the use of the land.

The bottom line is I *STRONGLY* agree with Bob. We can call it what we want to in private. But by all means, it really *must* be described as a sport to the public.......