AJ Firecat?

Is the firecat OTS legal?

Bob Hills in CT.

Bob,

In some cases it kinda depends upon whom you ask this question.

However, in many quarters it is now accepted that the Firecat is a legal OTS model.

Dan

>Bob,
>
>In some cases it kinda depends upon whom you ask this
>question.
>
>However, in many quarters it is now accepted that the Firecat
>is a legal OTS model.
>
>Dan
>

Actually, it really isn't.
Dennis

Ads for the kit first appeared c.1954, meaning "no". However, through the years some purported evidence has been offered that the Firecat was designed well prior to that.

If memory serves (and it often doesn't), De Hill has the lowdown on this. Let's hope he jumps in here....right after the Colts finish whipping the Bears today.

Mike Keville

For a design to be legal for old time stunt means that it has to have been designed, kitted or published prior to dec. 31 1952.

If the firecat is old time stunt legal where is the proof?

Jim Walker is one of my heroes, and I would love for the Firecat to be o.t.s. legal.

>For a design to be legal for old time stunt means that it has
>to have been designed, kitted or published prior to dec. 31
>1952.
>
>If the firecat is old time stunt legal where is the proof?
>
>Jim Walker is one of my heroes, and I would love for the
>Firecat to be o.t.s. legal.
>
> I don't remember where I read it, but I thought Frank Macey ( Mr American Junior) verified that it was leagal, but I could be wrong. I'll post an email to him tonight and put the question to him. I would accept him as an authority on anything Jim Walker.
Dan McEntee

Frank Macy did produce some evidence of the Firecat being legit for OTS and that was published in Stunt News a few years ago. Well, maybe 5. My recollection is that Bob Smurthwaite designed and built the first Firecat well before the S-1 Ringmaster came into being. Steve

Steve Helmick
Renton, Washington
USA

>Frank Macy did produce some evidence of the Firecat being
>legit for OTS and that was published in Stunt News a few years
>ago. Well, maybe 5. My recollection is that Bob Smurthwaite
>designed and built the first Firecat well before the S-1
>Ringmaster came into being. Steve
>
>Steve Helmick
>Renton, Washington
>USA

The following is an email I received from Frank Macy tonight. As far as I'm concerned, this settles the issue. Just have to build one now!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee

Hello Dan McEntee<
I truly thought that this question had been settled long ago. I've written in response to this question many times. The A-J Firecat was designed in 1950
by Bob Smurthwaite of Baker, Oregon. Jim Walker had instructed Bob that he wanted a newly designed stunt airplane to replace the aging Fireball. He
told Bob " I want it designed in such a way, that if you throw all of the parts in the air, they will assemble themselves correctly on the way down". Bob built
the prototype model and took it to Portland to demonstrate to Jim. At first Jim was very alarmed, as he noted there were no wing spars. Bob flew it for Jim
and finally Jim took over and flew it all day, doing every abrupt and sharp manuever he could think of . He saw the Firecat was strong and was not going
to disintegrate in the air, and gave Bob the order to start producing the Firecat. I have the original photos, and the letter from Bob Smurthwaite telling of
shipping the model kit to Jim Walker at the Model Show in Chicago, February 1952. The A-J Firecat was produced and sold on the local market for awhile
before it was advertised nationally. But if I read the (rules??) right this must all be done prior to December 31, 1952.

In fact, an American Junior advertisement telling of new planes to come when the War was over (WW2) said in print, one of the new U-Control planes
will be the Firecat. This ad appeared in a 1943 issue of Air Trails magazine, seven years before it actually appeared.

Dan I hope this helps you, but I have written to the "powers that be" before, apparently to no avail. With both Jim Walker and Bob Smurthwaite now
deceased, and no national ads before 1954. and all records have long ago been trashed, I don't know what else I can do for you. Please let me know
if I can be of further assistance. Thanks for writing. Send me some photos of you 'cat when you get her built. I've got lots of original decals if you need
any. Blue Skies to you.
Frank Macy

[email protected] wrote:
> Hello Mr. Macy;
> Just a quick question about the Firecat and it's eligablity for > Old Tyme Stunt competition. The question was posted on Stuka Stunt > Works Forum tonight, and I figured you would know for sure.
> Old Tyme stunt models must be designed, kitted, or pubished before > December 31, 1952. It was noted that the first adds anyone can find > are in 1954 magazines.
> Can you fill in the rest of the picture on the FireCat? I think > this has come up before, but I can't find anything on it in my files. > I have your plans for the airplane, and WILL get around to building it > soon, I hope!
> I really enjoy your email newsletter, and I wish you continued > success with your endevors to keep the Jim Walker name and American > Junior Aircraft alive.
> Best Regards,
> Dan McEntee
> Florissant, MO
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Check out the new AOL* > <http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/1615326657x4311227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eaol%2Ecom%2Fnewaol>. > Most comprehensive set of free safety and security tools, free access > to millions of high-quality videos from across the web, free AOL Mail > and more.

That's the one. Several years ago I received a similar mailing but today could not recall the author, and was thus was unsure of the details and accuracy of the claim.

Since Frank Macy is THE recognized authority on all things "AJ", the info received by Dan McEntee would seem to answer the question.

Mike Keville

Unfortunately, the Pampa committee who took The GSCB OTS Rules, and turned it into Pampa OTS Rules didn't provide a procedure to prove the authenticity of old newly discovered stunters.

I think the world of Frank Macy. That being said, there should be some period plans, pictures or publications showing a Firecat.

I agree with De Hill on this issue.

Certainly Mr. Macy is an authority however there must be some "documentation". It should be presented and the design certified or forgotten for OT Stunt. The line must be drawn somewhere.

>Unfortunately, the Pampa committee who took The GSCB OTS
>Rules, and turned it into Pampa OTS Rules didn't provide a
>procedure to prove the authenticity of old newly discovered
>stunters.

De,

Actually, the PAMPA rules do provide for a process to authenticate what might be considered as obscure designs.

From the PAMPA rules,

"Proof of eligibility lies with the contestant. Challenged contestants may show dated published plans, magazine construction article, dated photographs orn/or letters of confirmation of the date of the design."

A copy of the letter by Frank Macy above or his previous letters regarding the Firecat or the several reports that have appeared in Stunt News regarding various designs that have been researced and documented using appropriate sources to be OTS legal should be sufficient for any Contest Director to satisfy eligibility for the event.

Keith,

Where there plans, or period pictures along with the letters?

I do not see letters as proving authenticity.

De,

My intenttion here is not to start an argument. You are correct that there is not a "standard" that specifies what must be provided in order to authenticate an otherwise obscure model for OTS. What a Contest Director might find acceptable for documentation of such a model would and should probably vary.

In the case of the Firecat is a letter from a recognized authority on the background of that design and the fact that the "design" was in a kit. I also think that there was material in Stunt News using the information from Frank Macy and some comments from the PAMPA rules committee to the effect of the Firecat eligibility. There are some that might question if the "Firecat" that was designed in 1950 (or before) is the "same" design that is in the kit. I think Mr Macy's letter would debunk that question.

In other cases, sometimes there is only a photograph of a model. In such cases, the builder will need to do one of several things. Ask the contest management where he intends to fly if his model, based on the photograph would be elibible for OTS in that contest. Or, the builder could assemble whatever information he can and approach the PAMPA rules people (as others have done) and ask for a ruling on eligibility.

In other cases, a 3-view sketch in a publication, developed from what remains of an "ancient" design can be the basis for a legitimate OTS model. Case in point is the Jamison Special that Charles Mackey had in his book "Pioneers in Control Line Flying". The drawing in that book of the Jamison was based on measurements taken from the actual model.

Again, there is no "standard" to establish what is acceptable documentation. In keeping with the philosophy of the event which is to be "enjoyment, for more relaxed competition and for nostalgic recreation of the era" one should not expect to have iron-clad documentation requirements. However, reasonable expectations for acceptable documentation would require that some combination of written documentation from a recognizable authority regarding a model in question, or a dated photograph or photographs, or dated drawings, or drawings developed from actual models, or approval from PAMPA rules people, or anything else a builder can provide to validate that he has a legitimate OTS design.

I think what could be acceptable documentation for any specific model is as wildly different as are the models that were flown in that period.

Maybe something for the PAMPA rules people to consider is to compile a list of eligible designs and establish a procedure that a builder can follow to establish eligibility for an otherwise unlisted design. Such a list for currently known OTS designs would be quite large. Reference Dave Day's listing, the GSCB listing, the PAMPA OTS Plans Book, and the several articles in SN that shows such research besides the lists that I think you have. But even the existence of such listings does not mean that the model that is called one of those designs on the listing is really an "accurate" representation of that design. In order to do that would require a presentation of validated drawings, photographs, letters of authenticity in some combination to validate any and every model being flown in OTS. So far, the "Spirit" of the event has not required such documentation.

However, to preserve the OTS events (PAMPA OTS, GSCB OTS and any derivatives) for what they have become, I think judgement on the part of builders and Contest Directors is needed to prepare sufficient justification/documentation for eligibility of an otherwise obscure design. Part of the enjoyment of finding a little known design is the research needed to determine/justify its eligibility.

There is no doubt in my mind that the FIRECAT is OTS legal.

No I don't have any pre-December 31, 1952 magazine ads, dated plans, or other hardcopy to prove the point, BUT I do have the airplane designer's word on the matter. That's enough authentication for me!

Over 30 years ago (mid-1970s) Bob Smurthwaite, designer of the FIRECAT, stopped by the Sig Mfg. Co. plant for a visit on his way cross country. I had only been at Sig a couple years, and I was privileged to have Glen Sig introduce me to Bob. When Glen was called away for a few minutes I had some one-on-one time with Bob. I told him that when I first got started in control-line I had inherited an old AJ FIRECAT from my uncle. Powered by a Torp .29S Greenhead, it was my second "big" airplane (the first being a Flite Streak that didn't last long enough for me to get used to it) and the airplane that I learned to fly inverted with.

With a big smile on his face Bob proceeded to tell me about the FIRECAT. He said that it was designed and flown well before the Ringmaster (1950). He said that the FIRECAT isn't as well known as the Ringmaster simply because the Ringmaster got on the market first. He said the FIRECAT could have been in production years sooner than it was, but that there were more urgent projects American Junior at the time. We only had a few uninterupted minutes of talk, but I vividly recall that one of Bob's main points concerned the no-spar wing design, which he felt was very different for that time and probably the first of it's kind (the Ringmaster also had a no-spar wing).

I didn't realize back then that the FIRECAT's origin would become an issue with Old Time Stunt fliers, or I would have urged Bob to set this history down in writing - via a letter to a CL magazine columnist or to the AMA. We were simply having a fun conversation about one of our favorite airplanes.

If you ever met Bob and had him standing right in front of you telling you this stuff, you would never doubt it for a second! That's the kind of guy he was - low key, looking you straight-in-the-eye honest, not self serving (to a fault), and EXTREMELY knowledgeable about all things to do with model airplane design and production. A very impressive man, especially to a young person (myself at the time) who was just learning the model production business. I rank Bob just behind Glen Sig and Claude McCullough as far as model industry designers who I admire and would try to emulate.

I find it somewhat amusing that the eligibility of the FIRECAT for Old Time Stunt is still in question by some. Isn't the word of the airplane's designer enough proof of its age? Here we have an event where some people are taking liberties in moving landing gear around, changing airfoils, etc., yet on the other hand they won't accept the word of the designer as to the age of his design. Ridiculous. Is this a court of law or a fun hobby?

FYI - the FIRECAT is legal for Old Time Stunt at the SIG CONTEST.

Mike Gretz
SIG Mfg Co.

Evidently there are no period pictures or plans depicting the Firecat.

>Evidently there are no period pictures or plans depicting the
>Firecat.


Hello De;
Reread my post #7. Frank Macy has the original photos, and a letter from Bob Smurthwaite to Jim Walker about shipping the original kit to the Chicago Model Show in February 1952, and that the FireCat was in production for a length of time before it was nationaly advertized, being designed in 1950. To me, with the reputation that Frank Macy has, and that of Mike Gretz and his talks with the designer, I need no other proof. As far as we know, that may where Matt Kania got the idea for the construction of the wing for the Ringmaster. I'll see if I can impose on Mr. Macy to provide a copy of the letter and/or photo to further put this to rest.
Now I gotta go dig out the plans for my FireCat!
Best Regards,
Dan McEntee

BLACK HAWK

I am an outsider on all of this, don't know and don't care! I think that Mike Gretz was right about to many people trying to take the fun out of Control Line flying. RULES, RULES, RULES the number one rule in any event should be that EVERYONE has FUN! Keep all of the trophies, I don't need them, all I want is to enjoy friends and flying.
Larr

Gee Larry,
Without some rules then I can fly my Geo XL in Old Time Stunt... After all it's a lot more "fun" to fly than a ringmaster or Jamison.

It's great to have fun in competition but there has to be organization and rules otherwise it's not competition just "Fun Flying".

>BLACK HAWK
>
>I am an outsider on all of this, don't know and don't care! I
>think that Mike Gretz was right about to many people trying to
>take the fun out of Control Line flying. RULES, RULES, RULES
>the number one rule in any event should be that EVERYONE has
>FUN! Keep all of the trophies, I don't need them, all I want
>is to enjoy friends and flying.
>Larr
Amen brother, Amen! Richard

>>Evidently there are no period pictures or plans depicting
>the
>>Firecat.
>
>
> Hello De;
> Reread my post #7. Frank Macy has the original photos, and a
>letter from Bob Smurthwaite to Jim Walker about shipping the
>original kit to the Chicago Model Show in February 1952, and
>that the FireCat was in production for a length of time before
>it was nationaly advertized, being designed in 1950. To me,
>with the reputation that Frank Macy has, and that of Mike
>Gretz and his talks with the designer, I need no other proof.
>As far as we know, that may where Matt Kania got the idea for
>the construction of the wing for the Ringmaster. I'll see if I
>can impose on Mr. Macy to provide a copy of the letter and/or
>photo to further put this to rest.
> Now I gotta go dig out the plans for my FireCat!
> Best Regards,
> Dan McEntee


Hi Dan,

If you could get the the photo's and letter and post them here, it would put this to bed. Then the contestant who flew one wouldn't have to prove that his Firecat was ots legal every time he flew in a contest.

De Hill,

I just reread my post and am sorry that the last paragraph was poorly worded. I did not mean to imply that the same people who alter their old time models are the same ones who question the Firecat's eligibility. I was trying to point out the irony I see in both things happening in the same event ... not that they are by the same people.

Believe me I was not thinking of you when I wrote that! I understand completely your wanting to find iron-clad proof of the model's origins. That would be great, and maybe Dan and Frank Macy can provide something. I'm sure Bob could if he were still around.

Frank, do you know what became of Bob's own collections? Does he have family left in your area?

De, my intention was simply to tell my Bob Smurthwaite story. I hope it adds slightly to the knowledge base. I hope further "hard" proof can be found. But if not, in my opinion the word of Bob Smurthwaite should be proof enough for this event. That's what I wanted to say.

Best regards,
Mike

Yes, we have rules. Let us follow them. What we have here is, as specifically stated in the PAMPA rules, "a letter of confirmation of the date of the design". The design is therefore OTS legal according to PAMPA rules. Certainally the more documentation the better; but the PAMPA rules are quite clear that documentation requirments have been repeatedly satisifed in regard to the Firecat.

There is a mechanism for changing the PAMPA rules if they do not suit you.

<>

Mike:
I talked to John Brodak when ordering some oval-shaped brass leadout eyelets for a Bobcat I was working on. John told me he had purchased the entire J.Roberts stock, and a large box of these eyelets was included. I was intrigued, as these items had disappeared from existence. I didn't ask what the purchase included, but John did mention some old plans.

Boy what a shame the Bears did not play the cardinals in the super bowl

>Boy what a shame the Bears did not play the cardinals in the
>super bowl . . .
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nah...the Cubs could take them both (in my dreams). ANYWAY, let's try this:

If amenable to everyone, I'd like to publish a verbatim transcript of the Bob Smurthwaite/Frank Macy letter seen above in Dan McEntee's post. This would appear in the May-June "Trailing Edge" column in Stunt News. (March-April is already in.)

Based on that letter and the post by Mike Gretz, it's my opinion that the Firecat is OTS-legal. (That said, please bear in mind that my OPINIONS mean diddly-squat in PAMPA, or any other, competition.)

The Society of Antique Modelers (SAM), primarily an Old Time FF and RC organization, has a specific manner in which obscure and/or unknown designs can be submitted for authentication as to eligibility. They have a Chairperson (Gene Wallock) who shepherds this effort and bases his decisions on submissions of various proof such as dated plans, photos AND EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS.

I might suggest that PAMPA consider adopting a similar process.

In the meantime, I will speak with those now responsible for hosting the VSC in an effort to resolve the Firecat's eligibility there (which, as outlined above, should be a no-brainer).

Any opposed?

Mike Keville

Hi Mikey,
I think the Firecat would be nice different addition to OTS. Looks like there is more than reasonable proof about the Firecat. I need to retire my well used Ringmaster. It has been a good airplane to me and the best part alot of fun !!
Cheers,Dan

And, Dan,

It is a very nice flying design. Good looker, too. One of the Cholla Choppers had one a few years back, and spoke very nicely of it...

It would/will be very nice to have a "competitive" Old Timer from the guys who did so much to get CL going. I don't guess anyone in this crowd hasn't heard of Jim Walker, if only in terms of the NATS Walker trophy. Bob Smurthwaite, and Mike G correct me if I'm wrong please?, also developed and sold the J. Roberts 3-line handles and bellcranks. (His name was J. Robert Smurthwaite...)

De's point is well taken. SSW may reach a lot of us, and I'd like to see the documentation in a Stunt News article. That way we'd reach those who haven't found this site, or just don't do the web.

(edited for a typo)

To all, and Mikey...

I worked long and hard on this many yrs ago. I
built one of these based on the "shake it out of the box and fly it" ad. I have no proof of date. But I did talk long and hard with Frank at that time over the "situation". I have 3 sets of plans for different versions of the 'Cat". All have identical exterior dimentions. Internals were modified for simplification of construction.

Attached is (maybe) the missing letter from Bob Smurthwaite discussed in the posts above. Hopefully this may shed some light on the history of this very interesting model. Surly its history is clouded and perhaps no clear answer will ever be decided.

But this is my contribution to the mystery...


Ward-o

[photo not recovered: 22079.jpg]

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

Ward O

Can't read the letter. Too small or too low resolution. I suspect that you made it small to get under the forums picture file size limit. I downloaded the pic and looked at it in Photoshop. Still couldn't read it, but I did notice that it is in RGB (color) format. If you have a higher resolution scan of it, convert it to Grayscale (b&w), and then resave it in a larger size so it can be read. If you are unsure of how to do any of this, private email the picture to me in the highest size and resolution you have, and then I will fix it so it can be read on the forum and repost it asap.

Anxious to read the letter.

Mike Gretz

send it to
[email protected]

You guys are going to make me dig through the last 5 years of Stunt News to find the page where it says that all this was already done, and that the Firecat is OTS legit? It's already been done and decided. It's legal. Build some, and have a good time with them. Steve


Steve Helmick
Renton, Washington
USA

Mikey, sounds like much to do about nothing. If Mr.Macy says it was then it was. Don't know what all the fuss is about.

> . . . Don't know what all the fuss is about.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again, in my opinion only, the "fuss" is about some folks who apparently have way too much time on their hands and are concerned about some perceived advantage of this-or-that design.

Be that as it may, we all recognize that in any organized competitive event there must be rules, lest these endeavors become a free-for-all, effectively limiting competition to a select few and/or destroying the event entirely...(witness numerous "official" events).

I do agree that entirely too much has been made-of-nothing regarding the Firecat, and---as stated above---intend to lobby for its acceptance in OTS based on the Macy/Smurthwaite correspondence and conversation.

(Matter of fact, this would seem to indicate that I have way too much time on my OWN hands!)

Mike Keville

Just as an aside...



[photo not recovered: 22081.jpg]


[photo not recovered: 22082.jpg]


Mike, I'll send that letter to you direcly as an attachment



Ward-o

Attachment #1, (jpg file)
Attachment #2, (jpg file)

Thanks for sharing the letter.
Ward.



[photo not recovered: FirecatSmurthwaiteLetter.jpg]

For what its worth, at the 2005 VSC I entered a Firecat in old time stunt. Nobody seemed to have any heartburn about it. Of course, not like I was going to place.

> ... at the 2005 VSC I entered a Firecat in old time stunt. Nobody seemed to have any heartburn about it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In Tucson we don't get heartburn over much of anything -- except maybe temperatures of less than 60 degrees (F).

Mike Keville

BLACK HAWK

I once went to a contest that had one page that covered all of the rules for three events and the first rule was to throw away any rules that interfered with having fun. We just have to many lawyers flying model airplanes. If you know that what you are doing is wrong then you do not need to find a loop hole, you need to not do it!
Larry

>Hi Dan, If you could get the the photo's and letter and post them
>here, it would put this to bed. Then the contestant who flew
>one wouldn't have to prove that his Firecat was ots legal
>every time he flew in a contest. De Hill.

With much respect, I disagree. It would put this one to bed in De's mind, and those others of us who participated in this discussion, BUT:

>You guys are going to make me dig through the last 5 years of
>Stunt News to find the page where it says that all this was
>already done, and that the Firecat is OTS legit? It's already
>been done and decided. It's legal. Build some, and have a good
>time with them. Steve Helmick

Without an *official* OT legal list, once a plane gets a reputation for being marginal, rumors being what they are, the issue is likely to need "putting to bed" on a repeat basis, by other groups of OTers down the road.

>The Society of Antique Modelers (SAM), primarily an Old Time
>FF and RC organization, has a specific manner in which obscure
>and/or unknown designs can be submitted for authentication as
>to eligibility. They have a Chairperson (Gene Wallock) who
>shepherds this effort and bases his decisions on submissions
>of various proof such as dated plans, photos AND EYEWITNESS
>ACCOUNTS.
>
>I might suggest that PAMPA consider adopting a similar
>process. Mike Keville

Mike,
I assume that once authenticated by SAM, a design goes into a master reference resource of some sort which is available to everyone interested. A bible, with a small 'b'. I'm curious about the logistics of how this is handled (a positive curiosity ). Sounds like it's worth investigating.

A couple of thoughts:

1. A contest is an especially awkward place to judge the historical legality of a particular DESIGN. Contest/Event Directors have wayyy more than enough on their plates as it is, and are not necessarily qualified or even interested.

2. Judging the legality of a particular model claiming to be of a certain design can only be done at contest level, at least currently. This is a separate issue from 1.

OK, 3 thoughts:

3. In the case of a newly discovered OT design, or one whose authenticity hasn't been determined yet, the CD could (and likely would) decide to allow that plane to complete, pending an official decision.

That's enuff for now. Thanks for listening.
Kim Mortimore

ok i removed the offensive comment

(Deleted)

Mike Keville

This has gone way over the edge.

Walter

(Deleted)

MK

removed

>Rest assured that discussion has begun among several PAMPA
>members regarding a similar effort for Old Time Stunt.

I don't have a dog in this fight, not being a big OTS or Classic guy, but the argument against a list (ala GSCB) was to permit newly-discovered and obscure designs to be "sprung" on people at VSC, etc. If you have to get approval, that means you may have months of preparation needed to get it approved. I suppose it matters whether you think it is a serious contest or a fun-fly.

I would suggest that the cure may be no better than the disease.

Brett

Hi Guys;
I did not realize this was such a hot topic. I want to thank everybody who chimed in. I built one of these back about 1955 or so and recently found my tracings so I will build another one. I will enter it in OTS and let the chips fall. If there is a problem so be it. This is supposed to be a fun sport so lets have fun fun fun.
THANKS again to all for the info.

Bob Hills in freezing Connecticut.
P/S Hi Uncle Mikey, how about coming up to New England for the Northampton Contest?

Bob H. --

I recall the Northampton meets fondly. Been there twice...last time was '02. It's among the best-run and most fun contests ever attended, thanx to co-CDs Bill Hummel and Gerry Byers (sp?).

Chance of returning anytime soon? Slim-to-none, since the now-annual trip to Muncie pretty much shoots the budget.

(Well, there goes THIS thread off on a tangent.)

Mike Keville