Old Time & Electric Motors?

I know that it would be legal to put an electric in an old time plane but I just don't like the idea of doing it unless IC engines are are banned for use in models. To me, it would completely nullify the nostalgia intent of the event. How does everyone else feel about electrics in OTS planes?

Jim Pollock

Hi Jim,

As an ECL contest flyer I have mixed feelings on this issue. Some ECL pilots, like Bob Hunt, have used wet systems in their OT planes to honor the spirit of OT. And I have also seen E power used in OT at contests. So we have mixed views even within the ECL community.

I understand your point about the "spirit" of the OT event. But I think your question misses the real point about the spirit of the OT event.

It is not just modern E power. The real question is: should we fly "OT period" power supplies in OT?

I think that modern E power in OT is no different than the PA 40s, PA 60s and Aerotiger engines I have seen in OT planes. The difference in performance between stock, low power, foxes, etc. and modern power systems is way beyond the spirit of OT.

If there is a movement to use OT planes power systems from the OT period then I would agree that modern E power is not in keeping with the OT events intent. BUT, as long as you allow modern, very powerful and reliable engines, then it would be hypocritical to say that E power is not in the spirit of the OT event.

Some point out that there was E power in the OT period, but it was using the lines, and my understanding is that it flew, but could not do the OT pattern. So, for me to say that we could use that example to let in our modern powerful E power into OT would really be stretching it a bit.

If you do propose that we use "OT period" engines only, then of course you would have to address the availibility issue, among other things.

If you want to start a movement, (after finding out what we think) please include banning modern engines along with your ban on modern E power. If you did this, then I would agree that you have a very good point.

Regards,

I think Rudy summed it up about as well as possible.

The only other point that might be made is the flying site angle: if I fly electric I can fly in my back yard. IC with a muffler I drive 35 miles. Sparker and open exhaust - the RIGHT way to fly OTS - I do not know where I can fly one...

It's never clear to me if the nostalgia is suppose to be in the eye of the flyer, or everyone else.

""I think that modern E power in OT is no different than the PA 40s, PA 60s and Aerotiger engines I have seen in OT planes. The difference in performance between stock, low power, foxes, etc. and modern power systems is way beyond the spirit of OT. ""

I don't think Rudy summed it up quite right,

Hi Rudy , in addition to what you mentioned this also need to be added:
with that mindset you would not only have a problem with engines that come from me, ie PA 40s PA 60s , Aero Tigers, you would also have the exact same problem with these engines:

Magnum
Saito
Most all other 4 cycles
Thunder Tiger
Rustler
Merco
OS LA
OS FP
ST 51s and 34s
BRODAK 40s 25s
Double Stars
Retros
Newer FOX loop charged engines engines
FOX 35s with Plasma or ABC sets
ST 46s with ABC or plasma sets
ST 51 or 60s with ABC or plasma sets
Jetts
and to an extent any McCoy or K&B chromed reworked or ABC motors
And the New Horizon 36

I am sure I missed quite a few others but I think the point is made.
So where do you think we could get all the old period motors to supply people who wanted to fly ?

I think that would become a large problem, and of course we could then look at other items that are not period such as APC props, Bolly props, Eather props, and about a dozen others.
Polyspan, CF bellcranks, most all modern spinner...the list would keep growing...

Regards
Randy

>So where do you think we could get all the old period motors
> to supply people who wanted to fly ?
>
>Regards
>Randy
>

Where do people get the old ignition engines to compete with?

I know guys that wouldn't allow a Barnstomer to compete in OTS if it didn't have a stitched canopy so you can imagine what they think about modern power plants in OTS.

If you're going to use modern I.C. engines then you should allow electric motors as well. It's about fun isn't it?

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

>>So where do you think we could get all the old period
>motors
>> to supply people who wanted to fly ?
>>
>>Regards
>>Randy
>>
>
>Where do people get the old ignition engines to compete with?
>
>I know guys that wouldn't allow a Barnstomer to compete in OTS
>if it didn't have a stitched canopy so you can imagine what
>they think about modern power plants in OTS.
>
>If you're going to use modern I.C. engines then you should
>allow electric motors as well. It's about fun isn't it?
>
>regards,
>Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

Hi Rick

No where did I say that you should not allow electric motors.
My point was if you go by that mindset many other engines and props, parts and materials will need a serious look at.
I still think many people would have problems both finding enough old motors and would have problems making them work to their satisfaction. This would result in less people flying VSC and all other OT and Classic events.

And by the way I am sure I have a photo of a Barnstomer back in the OT time period with non a stitched canopy

REgards
Randy

With all due respect Randy I think the point you make by listing all of the modern engines and all the modern modifications to OT engines is exactly the point Rudy was making. If the sum total of all the these engines in acceptable in OT and are not against the spirit of OT then why would electric be a violation of OT spirit? I really do believe Rudy makes and excellent point in his position. Modern power plants IC or Elec. will out perform true OT engines any day of the week.

Having tried to compete at VSC with a stock Fox .35, stock McCoy .35 and replica Forster .35 ignition against modern high performance IC engines has proven to be a real challenge, I might also add one I very much enjoy.
Andy

Yeah---- lets put piped engines in them too--- it's ALL about fun ain't it??? HA!!!

Bigiron

> Yeah---- lets put piped engines in them too--- it's ALL
>about fun ain't it??? HA!!!
>
> Bigiron

Just so you understand, I don't fly OTS because people use modern engines. If you're going to use the expression "Spirt of the Event" then it should represent the event as close as possible. This includes cranky, underpowered period correct engines. Where have you heard something along this line..."If you can't find a period correct engine and make it work then maybe you should fly in another event."

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

> Yeah---- lets put piped engines in them too--- it's ALL
>about fun ain't it??? HA!!!

OTS is a freaking fun-fly. I find it hard to understand why the rules make so much difference to people.

Brett

Well....
The point is simply one of availability.
Where are all these old engines going to come from?
Maybe only "rich" collectors should be able to fly Old Time or Classic!.....
Replica engines could be made but they would likely be more expensive than the collectibles in small quantities.
Incidentally...I've seen some very competitive airplanes at VSC with Fox 35's in them. How about Paul Walkers Cobra!!!....

Randy C

>Well....
>The point is simply one of availability.
>Where are all these old engines going to come from?
>Maybe only "rich" collectors should be able to fly
>Old Time or Classic!.....
>Replica engines could be made but they would likely be more
>expensive than the collectibles in small quantities.
>Incidentally...I've seen some very competitive airplanes at
>VSC with Fox 35's in them. How about Paul Walkers
>Cobra!!!....
>
>Randy C

Randy,
I am by no means a "rich" collector and I've got several period correct engines. I've even got a replica engine that wasn't anymore expensive than a modern LA engine. There's nothing wrong with trying to compete with a FOX, or a McCoy, or a Veco all three of which are easily found and made to run.

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

Rick,
I agree except for the Veco's (they are starting to get a little scarce in good condition). However, how much would they cost if everyone was restricted to only those engines....
Can you find several hunderd of them "cheap" (other than the Fox of course). So the events then become Fox events?
I have several period engines "New in the Box" but they did cost as much as most of the new specialized engines. The supply of these engines would soon dwindle to nothing if everyone was forced to use only them....or as an alternative the events would simply die!

Randy C

>Rick,
>I agree except for the Veco's (they are starting to get a
>little scarce in good condition). However, how much would
>they cost if everyone was restricted to only those
>engines....
>Can you find several hunderd of them "cheap" (other
>than the Fox of course). So the events then become Fox
>events?
>I have several period engines "New in the Box" but
>they did cost as much as most of the new specialized engines.
>The supply of these engines would soon dwindle to nothing if
>everyone was forced to use only them....or as an alternative
>the events would simply die!
>
>Randy C

I picked up a reasonably priced remake of the Veco .19 I suspect if it's properly cared for it could probably have dozens of years of service. It will most certainly outlast my tired body.

Not many cheap engines as it is and several hundred vintage engines can be found in Oklahoma alone. Besides it was pretty much a FOX event in the past and that brings us back to "Spirit of the Event" doesn't it?

My dear sir the event is going to eventually die as it is, regardless of what powerplant is used. At the very least the number of modelers participating in this event will start to steadily decline in the next decade thus reducing the demand on older engines. This of course is my opinion and not meant to incite a riot.

regards,
Rick "catdaddy" Blankenship

>
>With all due respect Randy I think the point you make by
>listing all of the modern engines and all the modern
>modifications to OT engines is exactly the point Rudy was
>making. If the sum total of all the these engines in
>acceptable in OT and are not against the spirit of OT then why
>would electric be a violation of OT spirit? I really do
>believe Rudy makes and excellent point in his position.
>Modern power plants IC or Elec. will out perform true OT
>engines any day of the week.
>
>Having tried to compete at VSC with a stock Fox .35, stock
>McCoy .35 and replica Forster .35 ignition against modern high
>performance IC engines has proven to be a real challenge, I
>might also add one I very much enjoy.
>Andy


Hi Andy

I think that if you go back and read my post, you will see I was adding to Rudy's point, not argueing with him.
Also no where did I say that electric is a violation of the OT spirit and the other motors were not. I believe that we should give flyers a wide latitude, in engine selection to keep as many of the OT and Classic planes flying in contest.
I am positive that insisting that only period equipment (equipment includes much more than engines) will deter participation in these events.
REgards
Randy

Please bear in mind that we do have an award called the "Spirit of '52" for those entries which best exemplify "the way things were".

At VSC XX this year the award went to Tom Hampshire (NJ), whose Williamson Ringmaster had silk covering, cloth hinges, soldered-washer wheel retainers, several other "period" features...and a three-bolt Fox .25 for power.

Presenting such authentic reproductions for consideration in "Spirit of '52" judging is sort of a "contest within a contest" whereby models are (secretly) judged for being faithful reproductions --- yes, including engines.

There is, however, no requirement (at least at the VSC) that Old Time entries be powered with "period" engines. All are welcome, regardless of power...the goal being participation.

It's only a hobby, folks.

Mike Keville

In Australia the OTS event emphasises period equipment. I beleive significant points are awarded for using authentic period equipment. I cannot cite the specific Australian regulations.

I am told that down under OTS participation is much lower than in the US.

BTW - hi end power trains are not what separates the winners from the others in OTS here in the US. IMHO, Flying, building, and trimming skills tend to trump power trains or superior airfoils in OTS.

Jim Hoffman

...hi end power trains are not what separates the winners from the others in OTS here in the US ... Flying, building, and trimming skills tend to trump power trains or superior airfoils in OTS.
===============================================================

No question about it! OTS winner at the recently completed 20th Annual VSC was John Wright --- flying the same Barnstormer/McCoy 40 he flew at the very first VSC.

Mike Keville

Randy
Sorry guy I guess I missunderstood your point. I do believe there are plenty of engines out there that meet the spirit of the era the OTS planes were flown in. For me the fun of the event is trying to make the older engines work well enough to get through the pattern. Something I failed to do this year in ignition, but I made enough progress to continue the effort. I have no problem with anybody using any engine, look I don't finish where I do because of engines. Anyway as someone else said OTS is a fun fly and spark flying is a laugh a minute no joke!

Andy

>Randy
>Sorry guy I guess I missunderstood your point. I do believe
>there are plenty of engines out there that meet the spirit of
>the era the OTS planes were flown in. For me the fun of the
>event is trying to make the older engines work well enough to
>get through the pattern. Something I failed to do this year
>in ignition, but I made enough progress to continue the
>effort. I have no problem with anybody using any engine, look
>I don't finish where I do because of engines. Anyway as
>someone else said OTS is a fun fly and spark flying is a laugh
>a minute no joke!
>
>Andy


Andy

I agree, Some people love to work with Old Sparkers and other OT engines, to them it is what makes the event for them.
Others endeavor to make every part of the plane as it would have been back in the day,To them ,that is what this is about ,for them ,there are also awards and recognition for that.
However to others this is enjoyment and relaxation, some have major problems getting good old engines, and can't make them work right when they do...
FRUSTRATION is the last thing they want in this hobby, so the choose to use motors that they can get very repeatable stunt runs without the frustration and hassle of trying to use something they are not comfortable with.
In my mind this has always been about many people bringing OT airplane back, and showing up at contest and flying..sort of a fun event....

I think we should try to be inclusive rather than exclusive, in other words do what we can to help grow and promote this event while we still can. NOW IS the Golden age of STUNT!

Regards
Randy

>In my mind this has always been about many people bringing OT
>airplane back, and showing up at contest and flying..sort of a
>fun event....
>
>I think we should try to be inclusive rather than exclusive,
>in other words do what we can to help grow and promote this
>event while we still can. NOW IS the Golden age of STUNT!

Absolutely! And your efforts are a significant contributing factor to that fact.

Brett

Randy/Brett
I completely agree the more the merrier
Andy

Man, this thread got a lot of action in a short span of time...

The three best points, I think, are the:-

Fun factor...

Freedom to go at it the way you enjoy most...

(and less often mentioned: ) When the "eligible" OTS designs were the sharp edge of the state of the art, no one quibbled about the appropriateness of using glow, or diesel, or flaps, symmetrical airfoils, or any other technical method that appeared during the OT era. State of the Art is State of the Art...

Today, we have more range of choice for dependable and highly adequate equipment, than existed then. Sure, I prefer to re-create the models as they were then. If it is possible and practical... If not, then stay as close as is reasonable. (The limits on mods and changes have been spelled out quite well since the very first written rules. THAT pretty well defines the Spirit the event should have.)

(Oh, and I would consider that a full-size resonant pipe DOES change the external "character" of an OT model further than the mods and changes allow. Very few models of the OT era could fit one internally, and those that might have, are/were not promising stunters for the 1951-52 pattern.)

Personally I would never power an OTS model with an electric motor. In fact, I'd just as soon projectile vomit.

Besides, I'm thinking that in at least one aspect--noise reduction--to do such a thing would be exceedingly counter-productive.

Y'all chew on above statement for a bit. Responses and/or comments from Brett, Howard or Derek will be viewed as being in poor form as they are already known to "get it."

Dan

>
>>In my mind this has always been about many people bringing
>OT
>>airplane back, and showing up at contest and flying..sort
>of a
>>fun event....
>>
>>I think we should try to be inclusive rather than
>exclusive,
>>in other words do what we can to help grow and promote
>this
>>event while we still can. NOW IS the Golden age of
>STUNT!
>
> Absolutely! And your efforts are a significant contributing
>factor to that fact.
>
> Brett



HI Brett

Thanks, And there will be much more to come, the product from here will continue to grow this year, I am still astonished when people tell me that the Golden age of stunt is behind us !
Even with the wood shortage the number of extremely high quality kits we can choose from ,is nothing short of amazing.

Regards
Randy