Question for CD's Concerning P.40 Event

1. Would you allow electric in the event?
2. How would you determine adherence to the .40 displacement rule?

I would certainly limit the P40 event to piston engines with .40 or less displacement.

However, many contest organizers have taken to having Profile-ALL-YOU-GOT so as to legalize tuned pipe 91's. Under those rules you might as well let the electrics take their shot.

I liked the P40 as an "economy" event and have no use for a profile event that welcomes $800 power systems, piston-or-magnetic.

I do see the point that the event was to be a low buck class, and I do understand that you have to "buy" your fuel up front (as in many batteries)and that could lead to a higher cost for the event. Thus an electric system could cost more than a good 40 pipe system in the beginning, so perhaps local rules would prevail to not allow electrics in the event. Thus the cost is encouraged to stay low. This is just a thought and advice, not a mandate.

to be more correct, the intent of changing the rules was NOT to allow tuned pipe 90 engines, but was to in fact allow a great many people with Tutor too and other ARF planes sporting LA 46 and ST 51 engines to compete. Oddly enough these to engines are still being manufactured so it kinda helps enhance the entry levels according to the general concesus, instead of limiting it to FP 40 type engines that are dead as far as production goes. oh incidently, if allowing piped engines were in fact the goal, I would think that the .40 VF would have been totally dominationg the competition by now without the rule change!
Please get the facts straight instead of trying to stir the pot because of your dislike of electrics

for what its worth, we had a contest last weekend, the open profile event was contested with If I recall close to a dozen planes,, I remember one ST 51 (new version) and the rest were LA 46, FP 40. Not a tuned pipe in the bunch,,

Crist,
I think were it me, you could specify a battery size limit, say for example the battery size that Alan Hahn is using in his Nobler, or perhaps the Adamisons in their electric experiments. That would be comparable to perhaps a decent .35 airplane. YOu could run a bigger motor but you could not maintain the energy for the whole flight,, so as such would limit both the performance and the cost

>to be more correct, the intent of changing the rules was NOT
>to allow tuned pipe 90 engines, but was to in fact allow a
>great many people with Tutor too and other ARF planes sporting
>LA 46 and ST 51 engines to compete.

At the time the event began the purpose was for a low keyed, low cost event with planes more capable than profiles available at that time that a new competitor would feel comfortable entering(no appearance points). The 40 displacement was chosen because it was so common and there was such a wide variety available which is no longer the case. As this isn't an official event what ever the CD wants to allow should go as long as the original intent is maintained which should exclude high dollar powerplants.

Just my 0.02 cents worth

Carl

Well,
Here in Tucson it has basically been a "Fly what profile you brung" event for many many years (as long as the event has been around here).
We've always just called it "Profile". Ya know what? I've never seen an entry here with a tuned pipe and in fact don't remember ever seeing an entry with an engine larger than .46. Lou Wolgast usually wins with his Prowler with a FP40 and I've done alright in the past with a Cardinal and LA46.
I don't think it has ever occurred to anyone to use a tuned pipe, or a 91.
'Course now that you've brought it up someone may feel compelled to do so.

Randy C

For what it's worth, I have been flying a Primary Force ARF with a Maxx Products Combo 30 (equivelent to a .30 glow) and a 3s1p 3300mah lipo. The airplane is capable of the full pattern as proved by some of the people that have flown it at the Sig fly-in. Unfortuately I'm not one of the them as I have yet to complete one, even the beginners schedule. But the point is this combination flies with authority and really does not cost a lot more that some of the stunt engine being used in this class. If this was a racing event then I would say you could debate engine verses electric, but let's face it, this is a pilot skill event and there is really no point in arguing for or against. The profile part and cap on the engine size should limit the size and cost of this event. After all, a $5,000 set of golf clubs doesn't make you a Tiger Woods.

I replied over on Stunthangar and I'll violate my personal rule about double posting my same answer on two different bulletin boards.

We have dropped the displacement requirement for all Treetown Profile "40" type contests.

As I mentioned to Crist and Mike Gretz at Sig, as long as "they" know you won't win, there will be no controversy! ( that's why Mike let me fly my Brodak Electric Super CLown at last year's Sig contest, and I certainly didn't disappoint the CD!).

And another point, the displacement issue is always so bogus--for example compare the Fox 35 to the Magnum 36 or Aerotiger 36, or..... Comparing displacement to electrics is bound to cause confusion and problems. I bet my electric setup is cheaper than an Aerotiger 36, so so much for keeping the event "cheap". (I have no problem with whatever anyone wants to fly.)

I think the fun about "P40" is that in the contests I've entered, you are flying against everyone, so you can see how you stand against different categories of flyers (Larry L. take note!).

Also I am disappointed about my $5000 set of clubs

Don't know about the rest of the country, but here in the NW, at the forefront of C/L stunt (!) we recently voted to make the old P-40 event open to any motor or any plane,just as long as it is a profile.

The old P-40 event was very popular, and now it seems to be even more popular. Not sure if that is a response to relaxing rules, or maybe folks realized that a "contest" model didn't have to take 2 1/2 years to build.

I love electric! I'm presently flying a 3-motor stunter! (it started with 2, but I needed more HP, so it also now has a pusher motor added).

So, as long as any motor is OK for the event, there cannot be any argument about electrics having a power advantage (or negative advantage).

Floyd in OR

Allen,

You know I was just joking. I don't mind if you win P-40 at the SIG Contest with an electric. I think it would be cool!

So just to be clear, there will be no displacement regulation at future SIG contests.

Mike G

I always thought the P-40 was designed to be a seperate contest with certain restrictions. The way it is changing around here it will soon be a PA event. Not exactly what I would like. Next change will be to allow built up fuselages. Its already a P-Anything event.

One builder in our area has been proudly posting progress pictures of his cheater profile.

It's an all-out CLPA full-bodied model with an expenisve, BIG, rear EXHAUST TUNED PIPE inverted engine. At the trailing edge, the body skinnys down to 3/4" so as to "get legal".

So much for the "honor system" and the "spirit of the event".

If you want to win, leave the Fox 35 and and the OS 49 home and BRING MONEY. When you stretch the rule to accomidate the 51, you have effectively killed the 40.

Ho hum ,,, money talks, and it overwhelms the concept of economy.

The reality of this is that a profile fuse aft of the trailing edge is a limiting factor in and of itself. The airplane may perform marginally better than a regular fuse model assuming the engine run benefits from the more solid nose. BUT the aft fuse will still flex and vibrate like any normal fuse model. the engine run will net him a bit better performance, but, you still have to fly the model. Bottom line, if it meets the rules it meets the rules. Of course it has to have the engine exposed from the lugs up to the plug. He probably thinks hes gonna beat the world, so be it,, hes still got to wiggle the handle at the right time!

Well,
He will likely waste a lot of time and money if he trys to fly it here because it simply doesn't meet either the intent or letter of the rules for a "Profile Fuselage". Got an AMA Rule book...
This may not be an official event but there are still rules and Profile fulelage is defined and it does not allow full fuselages either fore or aft of the wing.

Randy C

>It's an all-out CLPA full-bodied model with an expenisve, BIG,
>rear EXHAUST TUNED PIPE inverted engine. At the trailing
>edge, the body skinnys down to 3/4" so as to "get
>legal".

Check the AMA rules this is not legal in a profile event. The engine has to be fully exposed with no fairings and if inverted (upright)the motor mounts can't be faired either.

I also believe tuned pipes were outlawed but don't have a copy of the rules as originally written.

>One builder in our area has been proudly posting progress
>pictures of his cheater profile.
>
>It's an all-out CLPA full-bodied model with an expenisve, BIG,
>rear EXHAUST TUNED PIPE inverted engine. At the trailing
>edge, the body skinnys down to 3/4" so as to "get
>legal".
>
>So much for the "honor system" and the "spirit
>of the event".
>
>If you want to win, leave the Fox 35 and and the OS 49 home
>and BRING MONEY. When you stretch the rule to accomidate the
>51, you have effectively killed the 40.


Of course it doesn't. Both Orestes Hernandez and myself are managing very well, thank you, against 75s and 91s with little wimpy 60's in regular stunt.

And I promise that I can build a 20FP profile model that only about 5 people in the entire country could compete with in P-40. Heck, I already have one. It cost about $100 including the motor and has lasted for something like 15 years.

So what if someone builds a piped profile? If it was a piped 32, would you object to it? I have bought several 40VFs for $80 or so, and it will provide performance essentially equal to any custom 61 - a fact that I have verified with back-to-back flights on both. Is $80 too much?

BTW, by your description, I don't think said airplane meets the AMA profile rules, so it's going to be very disappointing at the first contest.

I actually partially agree with the engine limits for P-40, but exaggerating the problem doesn't help convince anybody. If you think money and horsepower rules, you don't understand stunt very well. Not very well at all.

Brett

Mike,
Definitely no danger in my winning! That has nothing to do with electrics!

Just as a comment.
I think "P40" is so big because it gives everyone a chance to fly more at a contest. I am not sure anyone actually flying gets upset at "high zoot" setups. I know I don't.

We fly "Profile" in District 3.

Every so often someone shows up with a piped profile. I have never seen one win.

The guys that do well are flying discontinued 40s or LA 46s.

The ARFS with LA 46s are becoming very popular. Not much build time, lots of fun. One more event to fly with out much pressure.

I would like to see more electric profiles. I could make that jump some day.

Profile is popular because the fun factor is high!