Soviet Su-47 "Berkut" Fighter WOW!!

What a challenge it would be to model this! Awesome Fighter, and certainly a match to anything we have. With all the missle tech.today, is Air-to-air combat obsolete?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z6onhk2tDA

Looks like the X-29 from the 1980's to me.

Doug,

Take a look at the Raptor on this site: http://www.f22-raptor.com/

Isn't that the plane Clint Eastwood flew a few years ago?.
Derek

>Isn't that the plane Clint Eastwood flew a few years ago?.
>Derek

Yeah, (roll eyes) the Russians copied the movie plane..

Seriously though, they DID copy a crashed B-29 and some others during WWII.

>>Isn't that the plane Clint Eastwood flew a few years
>ago?.
>>Derek
>
>Yeah, (roll eyes) the Russians copied the movie plane..
>
>Seriously though, they DID copy a crashed B-29 and some others
>during WWII.

Actually, the B-29s (there were three) that they copied were not crashed, but ones that diverted to the Soviet Union for one reason or another after a bombing mission to Japan.

V/r

Bob

Doug,

The video is a pretty good fantasy for the Russian viewing public.
I think in a 1-1 dogfight the Raptor wins without the SU-47 ever knowing where the Raptor was at!

P.S. It's named Raptor for a reason.....

Jim Pollock

Wow...........That Raptor is one beautiful performing airplane. What an aircraft! .......... TDurrill

It has been reported in air-to-air combat at Nellis AFB, NV in engagements of numerous F-15C Eagles against two F-22s, the exchange is 100 to zero. The Raptor is the "800 lb Gorilla." And what does one give the 800 lb Gorilla when he asks, anything that he asks for and more.

Not to take anything away from the awesome F-22, but perhaps some of that depends on who's doing the flying.

For example, I suspect that in his prime the late Robin Olds would probably have altered the F-15/F-22 kill ratio somewhat.

Mike Keville

[photo not recovered: 29758.jpg]

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

>Not to take anything away from the awesome F-22, but perhaps
>some of that depends on who's doing the flying.
>
>For example, I suspect that in his prime the late Robin Olds
>would probably have altered the F-15/F-22 kill ratio
>somewhat.
>
>Mike Keville
>

In a fair (visual)fight I suspect Olds, Ritchie, Cunningham, etc would have a decent chance. Maybe better than even, as the F-22 is pretty huge when you see one in person, and you can't hide something that big from a set of eyeballs. F-22 can hang out way beyond visual range, though, and pop them with an Amraam before they know he's out there. Not "fair", but effective.

I always thought the NJ Air Guard F-105B's were the loudest planes I ever heard, till I heard the F-22 doing its airshow routine. Some 70,000 lbs of thrust is noisy!

Steve

Unca Mikey,

The young Fighter Pilots flying the Raptors and Eagles at Nellis are the direct descendants of Gen Robin Olds and his attitude and techniques of aerial combat. The USAF Fighter Weapons School at Nellis is the offshoot of his efforts and that of Col Moody Sutter and his creation "Red Flag." So, in other words, Robin Olds is there and those pilots flying the F-15 and F-22 are his legacy.

>Unca Mikey,
>
>The young Fighter Pilots flying the Raptors and Eagles at
>Nellis are the direct descendants of Gen Robin Olds and his
>attitude and techniques of aerial combat. The USAF Fighter
>Weapons School at Nellis is the offshoot of his efforts and
>that of Col Moody Sutter and his creation "Red
>Flag." So, in other words, Robin Olds is there and those
>pilots flying the F-15 and F-22 are his legacy.

No "Gabby" protégé types these days?

I met Grabreski's son at George AFB, CA in the early 80s. He was a pretty good Phantom pilot. But, for today's jet jocks, the orginators are Robin Olds, Moody Suter, Bill Lodge, Steve Ritchie, John Boyd.

Well I attended Jr High school with Yeager's two daughters. Neither of them flew AFAIK.

Enjoy watching both of them, they are probably the last generation of manned fighters, some of the most awesome war machines ever.

If you have been to a meet at Marietta, GA, then you get to see several of them on test hops during the contest. They are assembled there. Not all that big, really compared to the F15 and now gone F14.
Twin engine fighters tend to be big and have lots of internal fuel tankage, thus the larger fuselage, pluss all her armament is internal..As to the russkies, fugem, bringem on. "Never Fight Fair". I learned that in the Navy and it still applies.

I don't think that air-to-air dogfighting will ever be obsolete. Before the Vietnam war, the US Navy and Air Force decided that any future fighting done between aircraft would be done with missiles, so no guns were installed in the F-4 and possibly other newer fighters. It didn't take long for experience to prove that missiles, especially radar-guided missiles like the Sparrow, don't always do the job, and that a fighter pilot can be in serious trouble if he doesn't have a gun to defend himself or to use as a secondary weapon.

The F-22 has a cannon, along with its complement of missiles and I'm sure that lessons learned in Vietnam were a big part of the decision to include it.

Air to air combat will still exist, but likely not against manned aircraft. How many fighter jets has Al Quaeda fielded in Iraq, or anywhere? At present nobody in the world in their right mind would take on the US military in a head-to-head war. About the only thing that could really cause a problem is if several countries, perhaps China, Iran, Pakistan, India, and Russia, all started limited wars in different places and we had to respond. The Iraq war was very poorly planned, leaving the military in a very extended position. Multiple incidents could really put the pressure impossibly high. This is really a ground forces problem. The Air Force and Navy are pretty well-equipped for what they have to do, but without an Army force to follow they have limited ability to win a war.

>Air to air combat will still exist, but likely not against
>manned aircraft. How many fighter jets has Al Quaeda fielded
>in Iraq, or anywhere? At present nobody in the world in their
>right mind would take on the US military in a head-to-head
>war. About the only thing that could really cause a problem
>is if several countries, perhaps China, Iran, Pakistan, India,
>and Russia, all started limited wars in different places and
>we had to respond. The Iraq war was very poorly planned,
>leaving the military in a very extended position. Multiple
>incidents could really put the pressure impossibly high. This
>is really a ground forces problem. The Air Force and Navy are
>pretty well-equipped for what they have to do, but without an
>Army force to follow they have limited ability to win a war.

Good assessment! [photo not recovered: sipcof.gif]

The best pilots on the planet are NOT the Americans, it's the Israeli's. We as Americans, whether it is control line stunt,front line fighters or even golf, we never seem to want to give other people their due. Every time somebody other than us wins the Worlds,we scream it's a fix. Other people and other nations CAN TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS!!! Our sense of our false superiority is deeply rooted in a long history of racism and setting other people and races at nought. The greatest fighter pilot of all time was NOT an AMERICAN! He was a German and his name was Erich Hartmann. The greatest jet fighter pilot OF ALL TIME was not an American. He is a JEW!! and he is alive and well and flies for EL-AL airlines-he is the great Giora Epstein Even. The greatest control line pilot of all time IS NOT AN AMERICAN,he is Chinese and his name is Han Xing Ping. And, he remains the BEST control line pilot I have ever seen,(beside Gene Schaeffer).

The best tank of all time is NOT an American tank, it is a Russian Tank. The best combat rifle of all time is NOT an American rifle, it is a Russian rifle. The best hand held missile\grenade is NOT an American missile, it is a Russian missile\grenade. Around 2009, the Americans will FINALLY field a sniper rifle that will be on parity with the famous Russian Dragunov.

The F22 is a Gen five fighter. The Berkut is a Gen 4.5 fighter. The Russians have proved since WWII that they can develope and SURPASS ANYTHING we or anybody else can put up in the air if they so chose. If they want to make the Berkut fully Gen five, THEY CAN!! If they want to develope technology to make the Raptor FULLY VISIBLE, consider it done!!!

My goodness, we are a mite testy, aren't we?? Mild Bill

You know I may agree with you about the Israelis and their air-to-air prowess. They outwitted the Syrians in the Bekaa Valley in the early 80s and established a kill ratio of 81 to zero using F-15s, F-16s, and F-4s over Mig-23s and Mig-21s. But it was with US equipment.

>The best pilots on the planet are NOT the Americans, it's the
>Israeli's. We as Americans, whether it is control line
>stunt,front line fighters or even golf, we never seem to want
>to give other people their due. Every time somebody other than
>us wins the Worlds,we scream it's a fix. Other people and
>other nations CAN TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS!!! Our sense of our
>false superiority is deeply rooted in a long history of racism
>and setting other people and races at nought. The greatest
>fighter pilot of all time was NOT an AMERICAN! He was a German
>and his name was Erich Hartmann.

If I remember correctly, Hartmann did have the most kills, but he was shot down by Russian fighter pilots as well as Americans and Brits. He was lucky they didn't kill him.


>The greatest jet fighter pilot OF ALL TIME was not an American. He is a JEW!! and he is >alive and well and flies for EL-AL airlines-he is the great >Giora Epstein Even.

The greatest jet fighter pilot of all time is an American by the name of Major James Jabara (16.5 kills in WWII and Korea and a jew) but that doesn't matter, he was an American. BTW, the new USAF Chief of Staff is soon to be a jew, General Norton A. Schwartz. A great American. Giora Epstein Even has 17 kills that is true, but one was a helicopter. All of Jabara's kills were against fighter aircraft and nothing else. And another great American Jet Fighter Ace was Capt Joseph McConnell with 16 confirmed Korea Jet kills.

The greatest control line pilot of all
>time IS NOT AN AMERICAN,he is Chinese and his name is Han Xing
>Ping. And, he remains the BEST control line pilot I have ever
>seen,(beside Gene Schaeffer).
>
>The best tank of all time is NOT an American tank, it is a
>Russian Tank.

Strange, if I remember right in two wars, Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom, the US Army Main Battle Tank, the M-1 Abrams, took on the Russian's best and it wasn't even a fair fight. I refer to the battle of the Euphrates River against the Republican Guards.

The best combat rifle of all time is NOT an
>American rifle, it is a Russian rifle. The best hand held
>missile\grenade is NOT an American missile, it is a Russian
>missile\grenade. Around 2009, the Americans will FINALLY field
>a sniper rifle that will be on parity with the famous Russian
>Dragunov.
>
>The F22 is a Gen five fighter. The Berkut is a Gen 4.5
>fighter. The Russians have proved since WWII that they can
>develope and SURPASS ANYTHING we or anybody else can put up
>in the air if they so chose. If they want to make the Berkut
>fully Gen five, THEY CAN!! If they want to develope technology
>to make the Raptor FULLY VISIBLE, consider it done!!!

I hope the Russians believe you, because every time they have, US fighter aircraft have changed their opinion. And we have the F-35 coming along too.

>The best pilots on the planet are NOT the Americans, it's the
>Israeli's. We as Americans, whether it is control line
>stunt,front line fighters or even golf, we never seem to want
>to give other people their due. Every time somebody other than
>us wins the Worlds,we scream it's a fix. Other people and
>other nations CAN TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS!!! Our sense of our
>false superiority is deeply rooted in a long history of racism
>and setting other people and races at nought. The greatest
>fighter pilot of all time was NOT an AMERICAN! He was a German
>and his name was Erich Hartmann. The greatest jet fighter
>pilot OF ALL TIME was not an American. He is a JEW!! and he is
>alive and well and flies for EL-AL airlines-he is the great
>Giora Epstein Even. The greatest control line pilot of all
>time IS NOT AN AMERICAN,he is Chinese and his name is Han Xing
>Ping. And, he remains the BEST control line pilot I have ever
>seen,(beside Gene Schaeffer).
>
>The best tank of all time is NOT an American tank, it is a
>Russian Tank. The best combat rifle of all time is NOT an
>American rifle, it is a Russian rifle. The best hand held
>missile\grenade is NOT an American missile, it is a Russian
>missile\grenade. Around 2009, the Americans will FINALLY field
>a sniper rifle that will be on parity with the famous Russian
>Dragunov.
>
>The F22 is a Gen five fighter. The Berkut is a Gen 4.5
>fighter. The Russians have proved since WWII that they can
>develope and SURPASS ANYTHING we or anybody else can put up
>in the air if they so chose. If they want to make the Berkut
>fully Gen five, THEY CAN!! If they want to develope technology
>to make the Raptor FULLY VISIBLE, consider it done!!!


Rather than just SHOUTING about how great the rest of the world is compared to America, how about giving us some credentials so we will all know where you are coming from?

You also need to realize that "not giving other people their due" is an attitude that is not unique to Americans. Most other countries have this attitude down just as well as we do, if not more so.

Where did you come up with this burr under your saddle about America? Your stridency is overpowering any possible message.

>The best pilots on the planet are NOT the Americans, it's the
>Israeli's. We as Americans, whether it is control line
>stunt,front line fighters or even golf, we never seem to want
>to give other people their due. Every time somebody other than
>us wins the Worlds,we scream it's a fix. Other people and
>other nations CAN TAKE CARE OF BUSINESS!!! Our sense of our
>false superiority is deeply rooted in a long history of racism
>and setting other people and races at nought. The greatest
>fighter pilot of all time was NOT an AMERICAN! He was a German
>and his name was Erich Hartmann. The greatest jet fighter
>pilot OF ALL TIME was not an American. He is a JEW!! and he is
>alive and well and flies for EL-AL airlines-he is the great
>Giora Epstein Even. The greatest control line pilot of all
>time IS NOT AN AMERICAN,he is Chinese and his name is Han Xing
>Ping. And, he remains the BEST control line pilot I have ever
>seen,(beside Gene Schaeffer).
>
>The best tank of all time is NOT an American tank, it is a
>Russian Tank. The best combat rifle of all time is NOT an
>American rifle, it is a Russian rifle. The best hand held
>missile\grenade is NOT an American missile, it is a Russian
>missile\grenade. Around 2009, the Americans will FINALLY field
>a sniper rifle that will be on parity with the famous Russian
>Dragunov.
>
>The F22 is a Gen five fighter. The Berkut is a Gen 4.5
>fighter. The Russians have proved since WWII that they can
>develope and SURPASS ANYTHING we or anybody else can put up
>in the air if they so chose. If they want to make the Berkut
>fully Gen five, THEY CAN!! If they want to develope technology
>to make the Raptor FULLY VISIBLE, consider it done!!!

Wow!
Where did you come by such a negative anti-American attitude.
Pride and confidence in American ability comes from our history of superiority in many things. Not the least of which is our desire to protect our way of life and freedom. America has proven many times that when it truly counts we can overcome any odds.
This is not born of any deep rooted history of racism as you suggested but instead from a sense of pride in what we have accomplished. I'm sure even you must realize that America is the best place in the world to live (even California for that matter), and has the most opportunity to offer of any country. Why would you criticize simple pride in our accomplishments?


Randy C

Milton-

>The greatest control line pilot of all time IS NOT AN AMERICAN,he is Chinese and his name is Han Xing Ping.
>And, he remains the BEST control line pilot I have ever seen,...

I only saw him fly twice during one WC, and if you'll excuse my disagreement here, he was far from a superior performer on that occasion. Even things I was told were his particular strengths were disappointing that day and certainly not up to what I'd come to expect from top US or WC fliers.

SK

>...Han Xing Ping...
>===============================
>Saw him fly (and win) at the '96 Worlds in Sweden, and must
>agree with Serge's observations. The words "flat
>spots" come to mind.
>
>The fact remains that his skills are far better than mine.
>

Mike,
Ahhhh.....but can he judge as well as you can??????

Randy C

It is not Jabara,( there is an airport in Kansas named after him), it's Giora Epstein. "Hawkeye" Epstein is a Sabra, Jabara is not. The Israeli's are surrounded by their enemies. They have held Total Air Dominance in the region for over 50 years. No nation in history has ever accomplished such a feat given those circumstances. And by the way, the Mirage III was not American, it was French,(Dassault Aviation) and they kicked butt with that too!!

Milton,

I will have to disagree that the Russians have a better anti-tank missile than the U.S. There are many things you just don't know and that can't be told to you.

Jim Pollock, Once an insider in the anti-tank realm.

I never said anything about an anti tank misslie. Read the thread again.

Milton,

I was referring to this statement: The best hand held missile\grenade is NOT an American missile, it is a Russian missile\grenade.


Jim Pollock, Have a nice day, please?

Once again with feeling,I never said anything about an anti-tank missile. That said, the Americans have generally held the preeminance in anti-tank missile technolgy for many years and very deservedly so!!

As to Tom Mcclains response concerning Jabara and Hawkeye, On Feb 6, 1991, while assigned to the 706th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 926th Tactical Fighter Group, Capt. Robert R. Swain, ( I personally remember the interview) USAFA '79, scored the first ever air-to-air victory in an A-10 aircraft. Capt. Swain shot down an Iraqi Bo 15c helicopter during combat operations over Iraq. It is interesting to note that the same United States Air Force that you flew for classifies Capt. Swain's accomplishment as an official air to air kill but you won't give Hawkeye his. The United States Air force seems to have no qualms about giving Capt. Swain his rightful due.

That said,if you feel Jabara has the edge, I will respectfully defer to you. But, I don't think that one will fly down in a restaurant on a Saturday afternoon in Haifa!!

Sir, you have no refuted anything I and Jim have countered you with. I merely pointed out that Jabara's kills as well as McConnell's were against jet fighters and the best that the Russians could put up.

Milton,

The U.S. Short\Medium range Anti-Tank anti Bunker missiles are **HAND HELD** they are called Javelin's. I have seen them do things that are unrepeatable - you get the idea, right?

Jim Pollock, P.S. yeah, re-read it Milton... HAND HELD - RIGHT?

>Milton,
>
>The U.S. Short\Medium range Anti-Tank anti Bunker missiles are
> **HAND HELD** they are called Javelin's. I have seen them
>do things that are unrepeatable - you get the idea, right?
>
>Jim Pollock, P.S. yeah, re-read it Milton... HAND HELD -
>RIGHT?

I hope the third time is the charm LOL. I never mentioned anything about anti-tank weapons. If you say the Javelin is tops, then I'm your man!! Big cheese, Big kahuna, Top dog. honest

Milton,

Right! You didn't say anti-tank, you did say hand held missile though, right? Well, if your going to qualify the type missile as hand held, then I thought that brought *ALL* hand held missiles into your equation?
If not, then your listing of the Russian missile/grenade being the best is indeed correct since it would have no competition whatsoever. No one's ever copied it since most civilized countries have determined that actually hitting what their aiming at works better.

Jim Pollock The end.

>I never said anything about an anti tank misslie. Read the
>thread again.

Words mean things Milt. And read this: "The greatest jet fighter pilot of all time is an American by the name of Major James Jabara (16.5 kills in WWII and Korea and a jew) but that doesn't matter, he was an American. BTW, the new USAF Chief of Staff is soon to be a jew, General Norton A. Schwartz. A great American.

Colonel Giora Epstein Even has 17 kills that is true, but one was a helicopter. All of Jabara's kills were against fighter aircraft and nothing else. And another great American Jet Fighter Ace was Capt Joseph McConnell with 16 confirmed Korea Jet kills, all against fighter aircraft."

It's pointless trying to declare a 'greatest pilot' based on who has one or two kills more, or what type they shot down. A chimp firing AMRAAMs may well claim more kills than, say, Johnny Johnson firing only guns. Does that make the chimp a greater pilot?

As for helicopters, can I suggest that a manoeuvrable, well-flown helicopter is likely to be a lot harder to shoot down than a poorly-flown or second-rate fighter.

Not against an all aspect IR AIM-9M Sidewinder! And it is old technology. The new Sidewinder is even more ...., you fill in the line!

This may be pointless (which of course has never stopped me before), and will no doubt draw some fire from opposing viewpoints, but back in the '80s I was among those at Hughes Aircraft Co. (now Raytheon) who helped develop the AAMRAAM air-to-air missile --- not as a designer or engineer, but as a member of the Material Procurement team. Unless there have been some significant changes of which I'm unaware, nothing---absolutely nothing---in the air today will have the ability to avoid impact from one of those puppies.

Mike Keville

Tom

Suffice to say that I'm quite well acquainted with both the AIM-9M and the challenges involved in targeting a manoeuvrable helo from a fast jet.


The helicopter is not invincible, nor is the AIM-9M (AMRAAM is another matter...). What I said was, 'a manoeuvrable, well-flown helicopter is likely to be a lot harder to shoot down than a poorly-flown or second-rate fighter'. I stand by that - AIM9M or no AIM-9M.

>Tom
>
>Suffice to say that I'm quite well acquainted with both the
>AIM-9M and the challenges involved in targeting a manoeuvrable
>helo from a fast jet.
>
>
>The helicopter is not invincible, nor is the AIM-9M (AMRAAM is
>another matter...). What I said was, 'a manoeuvrable,
>well-flown helicopter is likely to be a lot harder to shoot
>down than a poorly-flown or second-rate fighter'. I stand by
>that - AIM9M or no AIM-9M.
>

Steve,

Today's IR all aspect missiles make all helicopters "Targets." It can do the Tango for all any fighter pilot cares and with a simple lock and shoot, it is history.

Hiya Tom

I think we might be drifting into a discussion somewhat at cross-purposes here, and away from my original point, which was that a helo kill shouldn't necessarily be dismissed as lightly as you appeared to be doing.

We seem to have similar backgrounds and could no doubt carry on at some length on the relative merits of current imaging-IR missiles, but this probably isn't the right forum for it!

I never said a helicopter was not a kill, I said Jabara and McConnell had all jet fighter or fighter aircraft kills.