"Biodiesel Diesels"

Dieselheads!!

Things are boring in Iraq, and people do all they can to keep busy. A couple buddies of mine have been talking long and hard about bio diesel. The asked me if there were any small diesel motors out there with which they could expirament with here. "Well DUH!" I thought to myself.

But since I have never messed with diesels before, i dont know where to start. They are only looking to spend a hundred or two on the motors, which shouldnt be too hard i think. Any tips, reccomendations, or any other help would be cool.

And so the discussion loose...

Hey, Sean!

Good to hear you have time and opportunity to discuss modelling...Islam has some problems with alcohol, as Uncle Mikey told us a while back. They shouldn't be bothered by kerosene, castor and ether...

Depending what the guys want to do, and what they have now, there are several ways to start off. If they have some engines, back home, they might be able to get Davis Diesel conversion heads that fit. I think you were there when I wiped that big stabilator profile behind Clothing Sales? That had a DDD converted Fox 15 Schn BB... Davis makes heads for just about all sizes of glow engines... Catalog should be on-line.

ENYA has just introduced the CL version of a few of its mid-size diesels. .15 and .25 in particular have had good word. ENYA Direct can ship. Catalog also on-line. Only complaint I ever heard on ENYA engines is that 1) the iron/steel ones take a while to break in completely, and 2) they never wear out...

Ed Carlson, in Phoenix, also has a catalog. His site on line is being worked on. His paper catalog used to have a good intro to how running diesels is different from glows.

PAW, in England, has a fine line of diesels. Catalog should be findable on-line. Their nicest engines for starting out are around .19 (~3.25cc) w/single or double BB shaft. Not cheap nowadays, but what is?

Main differences in operation?

TWO adjustments - mixture and compression. An over-rich setting can hydraulic-lock the top end and break things. An over-compressed setting can run rough, overheat and wear the engine out in a hurry.

Diesels take several seconds to warm up on first strart, and both mixture and compression may need to be changed from best running settings to get that first start. Much simpler for subsequent starts, unless it's been so long since the last, tht the next is - in efffect - a cold start.

Diesels, native or converted, produce torque like the next size larger displacement glow, or more. They usually don't wind out the way glows can, so - strictly - horsepower isn't more. Usable torque where we usually want it makes it feel like more power, though. This usually means they work well on larger props than the same displacement glow engines. They are also a bit quieter, even unmuffled.

They also aren't as thirsty for fuel...

More "help" is available as needed. We are visiting the other end of MO to see our grandson, this week, but daughter allows me to use her system.

Be good....{edited -spelling)

Further edit - Your thread title...totally lost in the fumes and greasy kid stuff diesels gurgitate...

There's a thread on RCUniverse, Everything Diesel, that may be approaching 100 pages, on bio-diesel. Most feel it isn't worth the effort, even though a few obsessive-level model diesel experts have had some success with weird brews.

Simplest for fuel is still kerosene (say, jp-4 or preferably -5), AA castor (SIG may ship?), and some means of finding solvent or technical ether that won't bring out every CID agent in the Middle East. If you can locate these ingredients, the basic blend is 1:1:1 - i.e., one part each. Better power and less mess if you cut the oil factor to about 25% and put the 8% difference in as kerosene, making a 33% ether, 25% oil, 42% kerosene blend.

Store blended fuels in a cool place,(HA!) well sealed against leakage. Ether fumes seem to penetrate the plastic fuel bottles, and losing ether means starting and setting problems.

Neoprene or tygon for fuel lines - diesel ingredients swell silicone to double or more original size. They also attack "neoprene" as used in fuel syringe plunger seals over time...

...Islam has some problems with alcohol, as Uncle Mikey told us a while back. They shouldn't be bothered by kerosene, castor and ether...
==================================================================

Not quite. When I ran the Diesel-powered 'Galaxy' in Kuwait, the ether had to be obtained from an Egyptian pharmacist who was my pal because I provided him with smuggled Johnny Walker Red from (ta-da!) Iraq.

Apparently the Kuwaitis were not ignorant of the fact that ether is often a prime ingredient in the manufacture of meth' or some other evil substance. So my pharmacist pal ordered a liter of ether, as he was licensed to do, from a supplier in Germany. As I recall, the price was exhorbitant (THREE bottles of Johnny Walker). At the time (this was 1992) he told me that if I was caught with it, the authorities would view it the same as booze -- perhaps worse.

Therefore Sean, you might want to cultivate a local pharmacist and check the local reg's on that.

Mike Keville

[photo not recovered: 29748.jpg]

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

I don't see why Bio-diesel won't work as long as you mix in the proper ratios of Ethyl ether, castor oil and amyl nitrate*, although the *latter may be considered a controlled substance?

ENYA's rec's. are: Kero - 37-36%, Castor - 25%, Ether - 37-36% and Amyl nitrate - 1-3%.

We run Jet-A in all our Diesel ground equip. here at A'A in Tulsa. I'm thinkin' you guys have a ready source of "Diesel fuel" in the sand box.

USAF/ SAC `84-`88

Sean,

I doubt that bio diesel fuel is suitable for our model compression ignition engines.

We use ether as an igniter, rather than injecting a mist of diesel fuel into a hot compressed air charge in the combustion chamber like a true diesel engine.

Even some automotive diesels have to rely on glow plugs for starting, because compression temperatures are not high enough in colder weather. Our model diesel engines have way too little compression to ignite diesel fuel alone.

Bill

So I guess what's needed is someone to experiment with a Bio-diesel/ Ether mix (+ Castor & Amyl nitrate). Is Davis Diesel listening?

Ron B.
F4Fguy



Bill,

The reason our little compression engines need ether or some other ignitor,is that they're too small to contain the heat. In an engine as small as a model engine, especially 1/2A, or A their surface to volume ratio is simply too great to maintain the charge at a combustible temperature. Small size has a lot to do with this, but breaking up/vaporising the fuel in the mixture at the carburetor also lowers charge temp. This is an advantage in glow engines, but one more reason "diesels" without timed, high pressure injection are not true diesels.



Ron B.

Sean

Good to have slow time!

On Biodiesel;
We have a biodiesel plant upo the road from the shop, and they use about 12% methyl alchohol in the manufacture. They are using soy oil. If our "normal" fuel is offensive, then maybe.

In the distilate (carberated diesels) engines, they would start them on gasoline then switch to kerosene or diesel when the engine was up to temp. That is antique tractor info, for what it's worth.

Keep us posted
James Gifford

HI James. As to all those "old" Diesels being started on gasoline, they were at that point gasoline fueled engines. After they reached operating temps, a lever was thrown and the intake valves were locked up. This cuts out the carb. At that point the drive mechanism to the type "A" injector pump was engaged, the magneto disengaged,and then the engine was a Diesel. I know this from working on them, plus teaching them for six years. International Harvester Diesels as in TD type tractors. TD6, TD 8 and TD 10. Also stationarey generators used for welding, same thing, only mounted on skids.

Glow engines as we use are refered to as "semi" Diesels [photo not recovered: sipcof.gif]

> While at the wisconsin engine factory in 84, I observed some ten horse air cooled engines that were being shipped overseas.The fuel tank was divided into two compartments (two seprate tanks). One held kerosene ,one held gasoline. I was told you started on gas , then switched to Kero.
Seemed like a lot of trouble back then just to run a cheaper fuel.
>HI James. As to all those "old" Diesels being
>started on gasoline, they were at that point gasoline fueled
>engines. After they reached operating temps, a lever was
>thrown and the intake valves were locked up. This cuts out the
>carb. At that point the drive mechanism to the type
>"A" injector pump was engaged, the magneto
>disengaged,and then the engine was a Diesel. I know this from
>working on them, plus teaching them for six years.
>International Harvester Diesels as in TD type tractors. TD6,
>TD 8 and TD 10. Also stationarey generators used for welding,
>same thing, only mounted on skids.
>
>Glow engines as we use are refered to as "semi"
>Diesels [photo not recovered: sipcof.gif]

From reading threads about biodiesel, apparently model engines will run on it. The method most use is to use regular model diesel fuel to heat up the engine then switch to bio diesel for further running. I can't remember if castor oil was used, perhaps it is both fuel and lube. No ether was used except initial warm-up running.

With this limitation I can't see why anyone would use it in a model. I think most do it just to see if they can.

Again, this is from reading threads, I have not run biodiesel and don't intend to.

George

Sean,

Posts #3 through #9 about sum it up.

The only thing I neglected to mention is how easily our diesels can flood. If they do, they either feel totally dead - no sign of a bump at all, then go to what feels like hydraulic lock when the overprime gets up top. Feels like it because that's what it is...

Rolling the model to pour the loose juice up top, closing the exhaust with the piston, rolling it to an attitude where it pours out as you open the exhaust usually must be done several times...

It can also oscillate instead of rotating while still part-flooded. It will draw fuel enough as the piston rises to sustain the back and forth indefinitely, so closing the needle or pinching off the fuel line is the way to stop it. Further de-flooding, then try again...

Sounds like a lot of negatives, but not really. You've learned several techniques with glows that you don't even think about anymore - same-same with the diesel quirks...

When they do run well, and you can do that dependably, they are no more trouble than glows. And they do have the cited advantages...

For real info on bio-diesel experiments, the thread on RCUniverse is long, confusing and generally gloomy if you just want to go out, fuel up, fire up and fly... Fairly junior troops may not ever find an excuse or alibi good enough if "strange, dual-use chemicals" are involved.

However...chain of command may be responsive to a morale supporting, sort-of related, spare time activity, under sufficient supervision that any sharps are handle out on the table, etc.

When I was a kid (started driving at age 10), we had a Model A Ford converted to light tractor use, and it was also used for short distance transportation.

In a very few years, I developed an interest in some of the neighbor girls, and the gas bill suddenly ballooned into something I could no longer afford. We had a big drum of Kerosene on the farm that was used in the kitchen stove, in oil lamps, and some of the farm equipment. We even had chicken incubators that burned Kerosene!

I soon discovered that my trusty Model A Ford would run just fine on Kerosene, as long as I warmed it up on gas before switching! That meant keeping a small can of gas handy at all times. Also a recovery can was needed to hold under the updraft carburetor, while the fuel bowl drain was held open (to drain the remaining Kerosene before the switch back to gas).

The neighbors could always tell when I was in diesel mode, by the huge clouds of white smoke that trailed behind my Model A.

Bill

What still surprises me is, just before glow plugs were available, it was the "hot" trick to run high-nitro fuel with spark ignition. When things got going, the spark electronics were disconnected, and the darn thing kept running with the spark plug serving as a glo plug (and I guess glowing like a hot poker). I watched speed merchant Don Newberger pull this trick with a McCoy 60, and I was astounded!

p.s. Last I heard from Don N. he was still in Long Beach, CA, but that was 7 or 8 years ago. Hope he's still flying.

Floyd in OR

p.p.s. I have lots of fun with my Allis-Chalmers diesel tractor. It has glo plugs used to start on cold days.

Sean,
I know nothing about diesels, but I 3 ft of tygon brand new fuel line.
Well I just ordered it from Tower for my Chain saw only to find I can not use it. I expect the order any day now.

Just ask and it is yours.
Send me an email.

Paul Taylor

~I wish I knew everything you have forgotten about C/L.

Check out my Blog@
http://rootbeard.rcuniverse.com
A link to a slide show of a fun day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-_sR0ZydSQ

**Writing from Dad's account**

Hi All!

Thanks for the input everyone! Interesting information


A couple of buddies of mine have this wild idea of starting a "UAV business" meaning that once UAVs get integrated into US Airspace, Their "company" will help their "customers" with things like training, standardization, and other operational aspect. Personally I don't see this working. The manufactures of our airframe sends us Field Rep's whenever we fly, both flight instructors and maintenance personnel, and im sure other manufacturers do the same.

Anyway...

They were talking about self-producing their fuel, and bio-diesel came into the discussion. So they asked me if there were any smaller size diesels out there, so here I am.

oh, by the way... IM HOME!!!!!!

-Sean

Sean

WELCOME BACK TO THE WORLD!!!!

E85 may also be of interest/

Hi Sean via DPMCENTHUSIAST's account

The short answer is that none of the small model diesels engines produced today that we use in model aircraft will run on Biodiesel alone, period.
Will our model "diesels" run on Biodiesel? yes if mixed with ether, castor oil and ignition improver but not as well as the tradition mixture.

I have followed the RCU thread on etherless fuel and the use of Biodiesel and apart from a few "nutters" most of the readers agree that they are flogging a dead horse.

I can just image the US Army, blow torch in hand pre-heating cylinder jackets before applying the electric starter; #@**#&@ would be the comment

Ployd in OZ

Floyd

Well, that would get it flying.

Sean

Manufacturing Biodeisel has some inherent dangers.
The 12% methyl alchohol has 10% sodiummethylhydroxide!!
In the as mixed form this is a nerve killer, BAD STUFF!!
Handled properly is easy, but mistakes lose feeling in the affected area, and absorbable through skin. This from soy oil, I am not as familiar with deep fryer oil production. The glycerine produced is the profit.

They may want to explore the ethyl alchohol. It can be made by distilling wood, or other Biomass. Cook the wood at 750 F and there will be fuel.

The military uses so much materiel that all suppliers are welcome. Every soldier should have fly-by-wire recon issued to them, Preferably a Nobler with Fox 35.

Sean,

To your reply #19...

It might be easier to approach the mfr's to see if they are interested in additional 'theater-wise' tech reps... Gov't contracting is a mysterious, complicated business, and has much respect for established firms that are more likely to have...

...a track record of competemce,

...products or services confirmed by the agonizing gov't review processes which, not simply contractor greed, cost us $600 for a $4 hammer, etc., long ago. (You got guys savvy in this area? You got lawyers familiar with steering through this mess?)

Now, not knocking the idea, just aiming a penlight at the rocky path involved.

IMO, you and your buds have more value in the hands-on skills and theater conditions awareness than any other area just now. That could be parlayed into something better, once a start is made.

OBTW, W E L C O M E H O M E ! !