More News from France

Weather today was pretty good, but deteriorated in the afternoon. I stopped by the stunt practice field and took some pictures:

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I thought the orange tail and checkerboard fuselage band on this Czech plane was particularly tasteful.

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Paul Ferrell, our Junior member, also has a Rhapsody. His is blue: he's a concert pianist who plays the Gershwin.

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Dave Fitzgerald's new plane. It flies very well, but still has a few bugs, as you can see in the last photo.

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The Japanese guys were hand launching at the grass practice field. Here is Kaz launching his son Oki's electric. Kaz and Oki were at the 2007 US Nats.

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Kaz uses a special form for coaching Oki. A good coach is essential for World-class stunt.

I'll post more pictures later.

We have had some difficulties, some of which are pretty amusing.
The American flag was not among those being flown. I went to the CD and notified him that there was a Revolution, and that the American colonies now have our own flag and control line team. He pointed out that he was aware of the revolution, and that France had sent people to help out. I thanked him for LaFayette's work, and he in turn thanked me for our folks coming over a couple of times in the 20th century to help France. He then produced a copy of Old Glory and hoisted it up the pole.

I then asked him the location of the F2D practice field. He told me where our lads could practice: a field out of which they were then thrown. I hope to straighten this out in the morning.

The F2D World Cup contest is a monster: 91 contestants. Rather than revert to single elimination to get the contest done in the time allotted, the organizers chose to spill the contest over through Monday and probably Tuesday. I watched some lovely combat today. One match between a Russian (their team manager, I believe) and a name-brand Ukrainian got off to a slow start, but progressed to three fine mid-airs. In another match, Whacker Whillance took the whole streamer in one pass. We rather expected to see some whacking thereafter, and we weren't disappointed. Richard Stubblefield and Mark Rudner were eliminated from the World Cup contest, but Rich Lopez and some of our other guys are still in. Rumor has it that the World Cup meet won't be allowed to spill over into the World Champs time, so the World Cup meet has been canceled. This will be revealed to the contestants, some of which came thousands of miles to attend, in the morning.

Here at the hotel, we are playing musical beds. No, not like that. The only hotel big enough to accommodate us has a double bed in most of the rooms. We assign two people per room, which means that we have a bunch of guys sharing beds. Some object. I went to the hotel management and got them to distribute all the extra portable beds they had to the rooms of our largest team members. Thereafter ensued much bed reallocation. Married couples who found an extra bed in their rooms had it whisked away in their absence- we're not sure by whom. One of the guys whose room I had the hotel people furnish with an extra bed raised a fuss because there wasn't room for his airplane and the bed. He cast it out into the hall. Rich Lopez and I spirited it away to another room before the Brits got it. I don't know how this allocation ended up. We tried to keep the portable beds in US custody, but the hotel has the upper hand, because they have keys to everybody's room. Things will really get nuts if they try to charge us for the extra beds.

I can hardly wait for tomorrow.

Howard Rush
Mexy, France

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Thanx, Howard. Please keep us posted when you get time (or when not trying to find a bed.)

mk

Don't a just love it?

This all sounds like a very perplexing problem but thank God that Howard has it all under control. Remember this from is from the guy who ran out of gas with his Hybred Prius in the middle of nowhere, which I understand was really only about a mile from a gas station.
I'm glad that the US team is in such great hands.
Hey Howard we missed you in Vancouver this weekend.
Alan

>>I thought the orange tail and checkerboard fuselage band on this Czech plane was particularly tasteful.<<

You would.

Howard,
Please tell the usa team I wish them lots of sucess.OK
And tell Kaz I said HI.

Thanks
Gordy

Howard, God Bless you . This is really great stuff! The Czech plane looks like Jiri Vezmola's ship.

Keep it coming Howard

Thanks for the info Howard.

What size spinner is that on Dave Fitz's plane?

Allan Perret

>What size spinner is that on Dave Fitz's plane?


1 3/4". Yes, I don't know how he does it, either, even with a 2" I can't keep from having the motor mount nuts show through.

Brett

>>What size spinner is that on Dave Fitz's plane?
>
>
> 1 3/4". Yes, I don't know how he does it, either, even
>with a 2" I can't keep from having the motor mount nuts
>show through.
>
> Brett

Threaded inserts?

>>>What size spinner is that on Dave Fitz's plane?
>>
>>
>> 1 3/4". Yes, I don't know how he does it, either,
>even
>>with a 2" I can't keep from having the motor mount
>nuts
>>show through.
>>
>> Brett
>
>Threaded inserts?


If he's using inserts to hold in his 75, I am sure not going to be standing in front of it any more!

Brett

>>>>What size spinner is that on Dave Fitz's plane?
>
>>>
>>>
>>> 1 3/4". Yes, I don't know how he does it,
>either,
>>even
>>>with a 2" I can't keep from having the motor
>mount
>>nuts
>>>show through.
>>>
>>> Brett
>>
>>Threaded inserts?
>
>
> If he's using inserts to hold in his 75, I am sure not
>going to be standing in front of it any more!
>
> Brett


I don't believe that he's using inserts. On my S6B I have a 1 inch spinner and the nuts don't show. Depends how the woodwork is done. Good job Dave.

>>>>>What size spinner is that on Dave Fitz's
>plane?

>>>> 1 3/4". Yes, I don't know how he does it,
>>either,
>>>Threaded inserts?
>>

>I don't believe that he's using inserts. On my S6B I have a 1
>inch spinner and the nuts don't show. Depends how the woodwork
>is done. Good job Dave.
>

WEll,
I certainly have to agree that it's a "Good Job"....however I'm with Brett. The blending of the nose seems to be very much in keeping with the curve of the spinner. The PA75 is a fairly wide motor, at least mine is. There must be something going on in there besides "wood work". It will be interesting to ask Dave when he returns from France. I've tried to use 1 3/4 inch spinners with a PA 61 and ran into the same kind of problems Brett mentioned. Obviously it can be done but there must be some special tricks in there somewhere. I doubt that it's threaded inserts. A radial mount on a firewall is the first thing that comes to mind that might work. I've done that before but it creats some other problems.

Randy C

I don't know about the the PA 75, but my new plane has a 1.75" needle nose spiner and a RO--Jett 65. No problem shaping the nose. And I used 1/2" square maple for the motor mounts.

and how long is the prop shaft extension on that one Randy?

Mark,

None. I had planned to use Richard's extended drive washer, but didn't need it.

One thing that always bothers me about the typical nose construction is that when you shape down to the spinners contour you end up going thru the balsa then the ply doubler which is harder and causes an issue when doing the final sanding. Seems you always end up with a high point at the interface between 2 different densities that is hard to get rid of. On my next project I'm thinking about trying something I saw on one of Bob Hunts videos. Cut/carve the appropiate taper into the motor mount crutch and then mold/form the fuse balsa sides and ply doublers to the crutch so that where the fuse sides curve into the spinner ring, there will be a continuous balsa layer, none of the ply doubler will come out to the finished surface. Should also result in a stronger nose, at a minimal weight penalty.. So it will be a challange for me to see if I can do it with a 1.75 spinner like Dave's.. The nose on his plane is really cool looking.

Allan Perret

>
>I don't know about the the PA 75, but my new plane has a
>1.75" needle nose spiner and a RO--Jett 65. No problem
>shaping the nose. And I used 1/2" square maple for the
>motor mounts.

The PA75 is significantly wider across the mounts and crankcase than the RO JETT 65. Also looking at the photos of Davids plane it would appear that given the position of the venturi relative to the spinner that there is no extension on the engine.
Nice job.....still want to know how he did it.

Randy C

"""The PA75 is significantly wider across the mounts and crankcase than the RO JETT 65. Also looking at the photos of Davids plane it would appear that given the position of the venturi relative to the spinner that there is no extension on the engine.
Nice job.....still want to know how he did it.

Randy C ""


HI Randy.. All

There is not any real problem I have ever seen doing the shaping on a 1 3\4 in NN spinner. I have done it and seen it done many times before on PA engines.
The PA 65 is 1.410 iches wide and the PA 75 is 1.450 inches wide, only 40 thou larger .
I beleive all of David's airplanes in many years has used my 1 3\4 in NN spinner.
The PA engines are pretty long so shaping hasn't been any problems I have heard of up until now
I have just recently made an extra long drive washer ( these are a 1 piece drive washer and short extention built into 1 piece) for them that is about 1\4 inch longer than stock. this may help a lot in shaping, KAZ uses the longer extented drive washers on his ships.

Regards
Randy

>"""The PA75 is significantly wider across the
>mounts and crankcase than the RO JETT 65. Also looking at the
>photos of Davids plane it would appear that given the position
>of the venturi relative to the spinner that there is no
>extension on the engine.
>Nice job.....still want to know how he did it.
>
>Randy C ""
>
>
>HI Randy.. All
>
>There is not any real problem I have ever seen doing the
>shaping on a 1 3\4 in NN spinner. I have done it and seen it
>done many times before on PA engines.
>The PA 65 is 1.410 iches wide and the PA 75 is 1.450 inches
>wide, only 40 thou larger .
> I beleive all of David's airplanes in many years has used my
>1 3\4 in NN spinner.
>The PA engines are pretty long so shaping hasn't been any
>problems I have heard of up until now
>I have just recently made an extra long drive washer ( these
>are a 1 piece drive washer and short extention built into 1
>piece) for them that is about 1\4 inch longer than stock. this
>may help a lot in shaping, KAZ uses the longer extented drive
>washers on his ships.
>
>Regards
>Randy

Randy,
Thaks for the info.....guess I'll try it. Possibly the balsa doublers with carbon veil makes it easier to shape the nose drastically. We'll see. If it's possible to screw it up I probably will......

Randy C

I take F1 and F2 and design them so they drop the beam an 1/8" from the top of the fuse side. Then install blind nuts and the 1/8" balsa over them at the very front. The beams for the motor run all the way out to the nose ring. To avoid the uneven "bump" from sanding through balsa to the doubler and the beam I use 60 grit paper that is designed for hardwood floors. It cuts those doublers and beams like butter. If the blind nut starts to show that tough paper goes right through them. But dropping the beam that 1/8 from the top helps prevent that. I haven had a show through in several attempts now.

Hope this helps.

> To
>avoid the uneven "bump" from sanding through balsa
>to the doubler and the beam I use 60 grit paper that is
>designed for hardwood floors. It cuts those doublers and
>beams like butter. If the blind nut starts to show that tough
>paper goes right through them. But dropping the beam that 1/8
>from the top helps prevent that. I haven had a show through
>in several attempts now.

Mine are 3/8 below the top of the fuse sides, but that doesn't change the relationship of the nuts to the engine/spinner. I agree with the sanding hints - just use very light pressure with very coarse paper and you can get a good shape without lumps. Then, when finished, sand flat spots on the hard parts to make a depression, ( I seem to recall grinding the nuts down with a Dremel tool on the current airplane ) then glue in balsa and sand it off flush.

I actually do see how Dave does it - his spinner has a much steeper angle at the base than the spinners I use, and he carries the shape at that angle much much further than I do. Just personal preference, but I like my shape better.

Brett

Howard,
Interesting organizational challenge for the F2D World Cup guys (especially if the target is pasted on someone else's forehead). After reading about Paul Walker's ingenious solution for seeding stunt at the Nats, I'm curious if the only alternative open to the F2D WC guys would have been single elimination, which does seem like a drastic solution (though not as drastic as ending up with the show cancelled).

As a thought experiment (if you have time and any interest in reading this), maybe there is a way that the organizers could divide the contestants into two groups, "Prequalified" and "Qualifiers", somewhat like golf. If there is some sort of world ranking in F2D, or again, using WC results for the last X years, similar to Paul's 10 years of Nats stunt, those who fall below a certain mark, or are newcomers with no prior WC record, would be required to qualify for the finals.

For example, with a nice round number like 91 contestants, depending on the total contest time available and average time per match, you might want to designate the top 19 as Prequalified. The 72 Qualifiers would be hacked down to 18 in two rounds of single elimination. Then the finals would switch to the normal format with 37 contestants, another nice round number. The percentage of Prequalified vs. Qualifiers could be calculated during contest planning as a projected estimate to fill the allotted contest time, bearing in mind the number of Qualifiers obviously must be divisible by 4 if you want 2 rounds of single-elimination qualifying.

No doubt easier to pull off in theory than in practice.

Kim Mortimore

Single elimination should have been obvious.

That's an interesting idea about seeding. We have never done that in combat. We seed geographically to keep guys from the same posse from flying each other, and in multiple-elimination contests we prevent people from flying others twice as much as possible. I have never heard a combat flier suggest seeding by reputation. Unlike stunt fliers, I doubt if you could find any combat flier who is afraid of any other.

Howard Rush
Mexy, France

>Unlike stunt fliers, I doubt if you could find
>any combat flier who is afraid of any other.
>
>Howard Rush
>Mexy, France

It is not a matter of being "afraid", Howard, it is a matter of trying to make it possible for the best 20 to qualify for the top 20. If all flyers flew before the same judges in the same round, who cares? But if you divide them into two circles where the top ten in each circle move on, and one circle has, say, potentially the 15 top flyers, five of those who should move on will be eliminated. And it becomes even more of a problem when you have four circles as we did at the Nats. Now only five from each circle move on. So if you had eight or ten of the best flyers in one circle, some who should won't be able to move on.

And, no, it won't affect the five best flyers and certainly not the top flyer (unless he doesn't put in the greatest score in qualifying). But it does affect others. And if the argument is put forward that "all we are really concerned about is to determine the winner", well, why do all these elimination rounds in the first place? Just let each person fly and then give the trophy to the one who puts in the top score. It is an endurance contest the way we do it at the Nats, and we should give each contestant the best opportunity to qualfiy so that the very best end up on top.

However, as to your comments concerning combat...maybe there should be a seeding process here. Do it the way they do it in tennis. Number one seed plays the bottom seed. Number two plays the next to the bottom and so on. Next round the winners do it all over again with the highest seeded player playing the lowest, and so on. That way, potentially, the two best end up going against each other in the final.

Just a thought from a non-combat flyer.

I just talked to someone who just got back from the F2d world cup. I have never heard him mad about a contest. Very poorly run. The orginizers did not even try adapt to the number of pilots they had, when it was clear they had to do something.

Giving everyone a single loss after the first day would have allowded them to finish the contest on time, and still been fair. The contest had lots of time (7hrs) on the last they did not use.

Oh yes, he was 3-0, and beat some very good guys, and it cost him a lot of money to get there.

He is so upset that he is skipping Chicago this weekend....

Seeding isn't the answer, get a CD that knows what he is doing and can make a decision.


Just a sport flier
Dave Siegler
AMA 720731

I heard nothing from people about beds today. Either the US has captured all the extra beds or the guys are getting better acquainted.

Tomorrow we have an opening ceremony and will learn when people fly. The locations of all meetings and ceremonies remain unclear, despite repeated inquiries. In that respect, it's not much different than maintaining the Stunt News contest calendar, for which it often took several requests to get CDs to reveal their contest venues.

The World Cup combat contest indeed ended after three rounds, a peculiar outcome. The guys who were still in are peeved. It did give the fliers, officials, and spectators some good practice for the big contest.

The World Championships has 41 countries represented. The Stars and Stripes were flying today on the flagpole on the end-- flags are in alphabetical order. I guess Venezuela and Yemen didn't show up.

Howard Rush
Mexy, France

>The World Championships has 41 countries represented. The
>Stars and Stripes were flying today on the flagpole on the
>end-- flags are in alphabetical order. I guess Venezuela and
>Yemen didn't show up.


Last time I was there (2000), they had all the flags, including ours, on the poles. Everything was in alphabetical order, Germany on the first pole as I recall.

Well, alphabetical order when you spell the countries in French!

And that was true for all the flags EXCEPT the U.S. flag (which is Estates des Unis or some-such in French), and they placed us at the end of the line. Either somebody wasn't French-literate, or it was a purposeful placement. Never could get an answer from the organizers (same ones then as this year).

Bill

Etats Unis

Howard...see if you can get a copy of Kaz's coaching diagrams for me. I'll post a link to it on the club's website, so folks can download it and print copies. Email it, if you can? A really fine idea! Say hello for Mike, Mieko and myself! Uh, P.Peterson, too. Steve

Edit: How's the Prius doing in France?

Steve Helmick
Renton, Washington
USA

>Howard...see if you can get a copy of Kaz's coaching diagrams
>for me. I'll post a link to it on the club's website, so folks
>can download it and print copies. Email it, if you can? A
>really fine idea! Say hello for Mike, Mieko and myself! Uh,
>P.Peterson, too. Steve
>
>Edit: How's the Prius doing in France?
>
>Steve Helmick
>Renton, Washington
>USA

They look like what we got from PAMPA a number of years ago. I used those for years while coaching Matt. Only I would be cheap and use three different colored pencils and could thus use the same diagram for three consecutive flights. (It also helped when one could see that the same mistakes were being made.)

Steve,
Doesn't PAMPA products offer such a sheet? We did some coaching over here in Michigan a couple of years ago and a similar sheet appeared. Perhaps someone will have some more information.
John

>Steve,
>Doesn't PAMPA products offer such a sheet? We did some
>coaching over here in Michigan a couple of years ago and a
>similar sheet appeared. Perhaps someone will have some more
>information.
>John

There is nothing on the PAMPA web site similar to what Kaz was using. There is Dave Cook's excellent Judges Training Guide, but nothing on one sheet.

However, if someone will send me a scan, I will be glad to upload it to the site and make it available to PAMPA members.

V/r

Bob

Um, guys ... the critique sheets available from PAMPA Products are *exactly* what Kaz and Oki are using. Just click on the following link, look under PAMPA forms, and place your order.

http://www.control-line.org/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/PAMPA%20Products%20Price%20List.pdf

For $0.25, it's a hard bargain to beat.

>Um, guys ... the critique sheets available from PAMPA
>Products are *exactly* what Kaz and Oki are using. Just click
>on the following link, look under PAMPA forms, and place your
>order.
>
>http://www.control-line.org/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/PAMPA%20Products%20Price%20List.pdf
>
>For $0.25, it's a hard bargain to beat.

Mike;

And so it is. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

V/r

Bob

>Um, guys ... the critique sheets available from PAMPA
>Products are *exactly* what Kaz and Oki are using. Just click
>on the following link, look under PAMPA forms, and place your
>order.
>
>http://www.control-line.org/Portals/57ad7180-c5e7-49f5-b282-c6475cdb7ee7/PAMPA%20Products%20Price%20List.pdf
>
>For $0.25, it's a hard bargain to beat.

To give credit where credit is due, the very first example of something like that I used was developed by Al Rabe for FAI (back when the scoring was even worse than it is now - the first and second square 8, for example, were judged separately, with a higher K factor on the second!). These were hand-drawn but very effective. Others came up with similar sheets that were tuned to the current rules. I have seen at least 10 different independent versions of something similar.

Over the past 20 years I haven't seen a lot of people using these sorts of sheets. Locally we tend to use a sort of shorthand on a note pad. But the coaching sheets still work and can be put to effective use.

Brett

So, the first official flights were yesterday. Any news on that?