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Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 24 of 24 known posts recovered

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 10:23 AM

edited#0 source
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For the past couple of weeks I have been having countless problems with engine runs, most of which resulted in at least some screaming lean laps, and sometimes a full flight screaming lean. Some flights would begin normally, then run lean for a couple of minutes before dropping back into a normal four cycle. Some flights had sudden engine stoppages at odd points in the pattern. A couple of times the engine just refused to start ending the session. Amidst this series of sorry engine runs there was further confusion until I positively identified a bad glow plug. I finally attributed most of theses bad runs to a series of new tanks. Some, but all, of these bad runs were showing up in flights with each of the new tanks. The tanks were of relatively conventional design and the construction was adequately competent. I could see no reason for the problems. Some of the lousy runs seemed to be similar from tank to tank, others were not. The problems were very hard to diagnose and I'll admit to having, for awhile, suspicions of engine, rather than tank, problems.

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Finally I remembered the sage words of my engine guru, Dubby Jett. The master says "80% of all engine problems are the tank. The rest are the tank". Taking his wise words to heart, I finally figured it out. When pressure testing these new tanks, I would hold them under watter and apply pressure to the tank with a fuel bulb using the full weight of my upper body. Any leaks would show up as streams of bubbles. These leaks show up in some new tanks and simply indicate a pinhole in a solder lap joint, easily fixed with a little more heat and solder.

[photo not recovered: 29868.jpg]

While testing, I discovered a new problem. My fuel forty year old fuel bulb was disintegrating. To get the tank tested and into the airplane without further delay, I taped the top of the bulb where most of the leaks were and held a finger over a leak at the bottom of the bulb to complete the tank test. While testing the two tanks that leaked, pressure was lost by the bulb while the tank was still under water. Water was sucked in unnoticed where bubbles had come out. The leaks were repaired, the tanks tested OK and seemed normally empty when installed.

OK, once again I demonstrated that engines won't run on water and run very poorly on water contaminated fuel.

Over the last 40 years or so, I've built a large number of tanks and never had this problem. I attribute this human failure to the distraction of attempting to pressure test tanks with a deteriorated bulb (which has since been replaced, $6.75+).

Once again, the sun shines, the birds sing and so does my Ro-Jett .76. The last couple of nights, engine runs and lap times have been perfect. I am amazed, considering the amount of screaming lean that I have flown during this episode, the Ro-Jett still seems happy. It has a really strong seal, hot and cold, and turns the same prop as before at the same RPM. I guess the new metal technology saved the engine, which is a very comforting thought.

[photo not recovered: 29869.jpg]

I got tired watching Snaggletooth roar around in endless laps of screaming two stroke. I started doing full patterns with sub 4 sec laps. Last night, after another happy practice session, while wiping Snaggletooth, I discovered stress cracks on the bottom of the fuselage under the flap hinge line from the violent high speed maneuvering. Well, what the heck. Its windy today anyway. Tomorrow I'll be able to practice again with a strong 2 - 4 breaking Ro-Jett turning a wide blade 15" PROP singing happily and well fed from its new tank.

MORAL: "80% of all engine problems are the tank. The rest are the tank", Or maybe, fuel contamination. Tanks are easy to build. Its a handy skill for most serious flyers.

Al

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perretar · Jul 28, 2008 11:27 AM

#1 source
Hey Al:
Those 3 tanks in the 4th picture, with the wedge at the right-rear location, are upside down, right ?

Allan Perret

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 03:02 PM

edited#4 source
Allan,

Yep, they are upside down but show the configuration of the tank better. Also, this is what they look like when installed in the inverted airplane with the cowling off. The bevel on the front of the tank is for clearance from the exhaust manifold.

Al

Aerowrench · Jul 28, 2008 11:40 AM

#2 source
Turkey basters are cheap, lol. Your tanks look great!

Do you use the Du-bro solder-on barbs on the tubes? ...or are they not needed?
-Doug

johnbyrne · Jul 28, 2008 01:50 PM

#3 source
I'd love to see one of your wonderful how to threads on how to build a tank.

hint hint



Thanks
John

PS, thanks for sharing
"Often Wrong" .... wife

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 10:13 PM

edited#12 source
>I'd love to see one of your wonderful how to threads on how
>to build a tank.
>
>hint hint
>
>
>
>Thanks
>John
>
>PS, thanks for sharing

John,

I did a fairly complete tank build in the Mustunt IV Building tutorial, part 9. I may do another one with some of my newer techniques. The Mustunt IV tutorial is still available here on this forum.

Go back to the main forum page. At the top click on "search". In the block labled "keyword(s)" type "Mustunt part 9" and enter. All 11 Mustunt IV parts show up. Click on Part 9.

Al

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 03:03 PM

#5 source

Doug,

I don't know what Du-Bro barbs are, so, I guess these are not needed.

Al

Bruce H · Jul 28, 2008 03:22 PM

#6 source

I wouldn't use the cardboard tanks as they will leak! Hey I am kidding. Thanks for sharing with us.


Bruce

Jim Thomerson · Jul 28, 2008 04:09 PM

#7 source
Al, try this. Run hot water in the sink. Seal the tank up and hold it under water with a big pair of channel locks. If there are any leaks they will show up and there will be no water getting into the tank. I even put the tanks in the freezer for a few minutes before sealing them up to get even more pressure from the air inside exanding as it heats. You can get more pressure this way than you can put in with a bulb.

greggles · Jul 28, 2008 11:07 PM

#15 source
Jim,

you took the words right out of my mouth. Except, I boil the water for testing, it helps to remove any traces of solder flux.
Regards

Greggles ;^}>
"Oh! Do you come from a land down under? (oh yeah yeah)
Where women glow and men plunder?
Can't you hear, can't you hear the thunder?
You better run, you better take cover."

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 06:12 PM

edited#8 source
>
> I wouldn't use the cardboard tanks as they will leak! Hey I
>am kidding. Thanks for sharing with us.
>
>
> Bruce

[photo not recovered: 29847.jpg]

Bruce,

Cardboard tank models are very handy for creating a model of the tank to visualize the proposed tank and determine its capacity. With the cardboard model I can install it in the airplane and check the fit before building the metal tank. Also, believe it or not, the cardboard model will hold water for a couple of seconds without much damage. The water can then be dumped into a graduate for a very exact reading of the tank's capacity. Finally, these tank model unassembled cutouts are used as templates when traced onto tank metal to begin the construction of actual tanks.

[photo not recovered: 29849.jpg]

A really neat feature of these tank models is the process of creating these models. The tank design is drawn on a sheet of paper, scanned into the computer and printed, as many as needed, onto manila folder material.

[photo not recovered: 29848.jpg]

Al

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peabody · Jul 28, 2008 06:46 PM

#9 source
Hi Al:
Windy made a video a year or so ago about tanks and carbon fiber....they're real light.
See Ya

Peabody

www.gscb.us / www.richpeabody.com

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 08:36 PM

edited#11 source
>Hi Al:
>Windy made a video a year or so ago about tanks and carbon
>fiber....they're real light.
>See Ya
>
>Peabody
>
>www.gscb.us / www.richpeabody.com

Well, that takes an entirely new technology and materials. I doubt there is any savings in time, particularly when tanks of differing designs are being made. Tinplate tanks don't require molds. Tinplate tanks are impervious to the effects of exposure to fuel. Also, my 8 oz tanks weigh less than 50 grams, or a bit less than 2 ounces. That's light enough for a tank of lifetime durability. But, I suppose that if there is a need for a number of identical tanks carbon may be a very good way to make them. I don't know. I have no experience with carbon tanks. I'm comfortable with building metal tanks where I can start a tank of new design after lunch and fly it by supper time, usually without the problems which prompted this post.

In short, there is nothing in this post comparing my tank designs or construction with tanks by anyone else. This post is simply how and why I build metal tanks and my experience running them.

I had a number of problems which turned out to be fuel contamination. The range of apparent engine problems possible with fuel contamination suggested that information on the subject might be informative enough to justify a post.

Al

Mike S · Jul 28, 2008 10:24 PM

#13 source
Hi Al:

For us tank neophytes can you give some data on thickness of tinplate used, type of solder used, type of heat source (gun, iron, propane torch, or some of each), and the interior plumbing you have found to work best? Last tank I built was in 1965 so my skills have atrophied a bit. Assume a full-bodied stunter installation. Thanks!
Mike S

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 11:19 PM

edited#16 source
>Hi Al:
>
>For us tank neophytes can you give some data on thickness of
>tinplate used, type of solder used, type of heat source (gun,
>iron, propane torch, or some of each), and the interior
>plumbing you have found to work best? Last tank I built was in
>1965 so my skills have atrophied a bit. Assume a full-bodied
>stunter installation. Thanks!

[photo not recovered: 29851.jpg]

Mike,

I use a Weller model 8200 140/100 watt gun, Radio Shack 60/40 rosin core solder (60%tin/40%lead, electrical solder). I used to use .007 tinplate but found a source for .005 from Gaylord Elling in San Antonio (info in PAMPA Reference Manual). The plumbing is very conventional in these latest tanks using fixed vents and pickups.

Al

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Mike S · Jul 29, 2008 11:01 PM

#21 source
Thanks, Al. I may have to take a shot at this as I cleverly built an Olympic 1/16 inch narrower than any factory tank I am aware of. Then glassed the tank compartment.
Mike S

Aerowrench · Jul 29, 2008 01:59 AM

edited#17 source
>
>Doug,
>
>I don't know what Du-Bro barbs are, so, I guess these are not
>needed.
>
>Al

Al- These are simply solder-on barbs for 1/8" (and 5/32")tubing. They prevent the fuel line from slipping off (if that's a past problem) More of an insurance item than a necessity.

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http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXWH38&P=0

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-Doug

Al Rabe · Jul 29, 2008 09:24 AM

#18 source
>Al- These are simply solder-on barbs for 1/8" (and
>5/32")tubing. They prevent the fuel line from slipping
>off (if that's a past problem) More of an insurance item than
>a necessity.

Doug,

Didn't know such things existed. In any case, I don't think they are necessary. I push flexible tubing at least 1/2" up onto each tank vent and pickup. Never had a problem with leaks or tubing coming off.

Al

Bob Reeves · Jul 28, 2008 06:57 PM

#10 source
Al, the little hand vacume pumps for checking vacume leaks and bleeding brakes are cheap and work great for checking tanks. Just plug it up, pump up a vacume and see if it holds. No water involved and you can also check the whole fuel system in the airplane.

If I remember right your tanks have clunks in them?

Al Rabe · Jul 28, 2008 10:31 PM

edited#14 source
>Al, the little hand vacume pumps for checking vacume leaks
>and bleeding brakes are cheap and work great for checking
>tanks. Just plug it up, pump up a vacume and see if it holds.
>No water involved and you can also check the whole fuel system
>in the airplane.
>
>If I remember right your tanks have clunks in them?

Bob,

This series of tanks are uniflow but don't have clunk weights. The pickup tube is soldered to the inside of the wedge about 1/4" from the back of the tank. The uniflow vent is soldered to the pickup tube about midway from the front to back of the tank. All of my tanks may also be run as atmospheric vented by simply leaving the cap off of the overflow vent.

[photo not recovered: 29850.jpg]

The goal of this series was to design a tank which would fit my available space and exhibit characteristic which would permit engine stoppage on command near the end of the flight with a tight looping maneuver. It took three tries, but I think this third "no clunk" version is working as desired.

Al

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Arlan McKee · Jul 29, 2008 08:31 PM

#19 source
>Al, the little hand vacume pumps for checking vacume leaks
>and bleeding brakes are cheap and work great for checking
>tanks. Just plug it up, pump up a vacume and see if it holds.
>No water involved and you can also check the whole fuel system
>in the airplane.
>
>If I remember right your tanks have clunks in them?


Thanks Bob, thats one of the best tidbits I've picked up in a while. Sometimes things that hold positive pressure will not hold vacuum and the reverse is also true, so I believe in the future I will check both ways before installation. I'm glad to now have a way to check for a leak without removing the tank.

Al, that fuel bulb had to be blowing chunks of rubber long before now. My Father is the same way and is on his second fuel bulb since 1975. Had it not been for the house fire in 1975 burning up everything, He would probably be on his second since the mid 60's. You guys sure are fond of your fuel bulbs.

Arlan

Al Rabe · Jul 29, 2008 10:33 PM

edited#20 source
>>Al, the little hand vacume pumps for checking vacume
>leaks
>>and bleeding brakes are cheap and work great for checking
>>tanks. Just plug it up, pump up a vacume and see if it
>holds.
>>No water involved and you can also check the whole fuel
>system

>Al, that fuel bulb had to be blowing chunks of rubber long
>before now. My Father is the same way and is on his second
>fuel bulb since 1975. Had it not been for the house fire in
>1975 burning up everything, He would probably be on his second
>since the mid 60's. You guys sure are fond of your fuel
>bulbs.
>
>Arlan

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Arlan,

Yes, I have checked numerous tanks this way for the past forty years and am comfortable with the leak indications of this method. This fuel bulb was old and deteriorating but the deterioration wasn't obvious until these last two tanks built just a couple of days apart. I do know better than to use an obviously defective bulb but admit to doing it this time thinking "just one more time". The weather was good, the airplane waiting, and the tank was protected by a filter in the bulb tester line. The hobby shop was a long way away and, at the moment, I needed nothing else to justify the expenditure of about $15 worth of expensive gas just to purchase a $7 bulb. I hope that you don't think that anyone with my competition history typically encounters problems created by careless or thoughtless operations.

There has never been any evidence of debris in my tank or engine fuel filters which are checked and cleaned frequently. This fuel contamination didn't show up in the airplane filter either. You will note there is a filter on my tester bulb as well. This filter effectively keeps any bulb debris out of the tested tanks. If debris were ever able to find its way past the bulb filter it would inevitably wind up in the airplane fuel filter. Hasn't happened. This was my first and only experience with fuel contamination and thought the incident and the unusual circumstances in how the contamination occurred was worth posting here.

Al

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Arlan McKee · Jul 30, 2008 03:52 AM

#22 source
> I hope that you don't think that anyone
>with my competition history typically encounters problems
>created by careless or thoughtless operations.

Absolutely not. I just thought you were sentimental and hated to retire the bulb.

Al Rabe · Jul 30, 2008 02:29 PM

edited#23 source
Yeah. I know, you're thinking "touchy, touchy" and you are probably right. Still, I thought that the line filter on the tester was adequate protection for the tank from bulb debris, if any, and this, at least, proved correct. Who ever heard of sucking water into a leak during test? Live and learn. From now on I will additionally oven bake all tested tanks to insure there is no residual moisture before installing them in airplanes.

Al