What is your opinion about this?
Stuka Stunt Main Forum · 30 of 30 known posts recovered
If you fold a set of Model Airplane PLANS do the dimensions get smaller?
My answer is, NO WAY.
OK, here is the deal. I sold a set of folded Plans and the buyer insists that I replace the folded plans with a set of rolled plans. He claims the dimensions get smaller when plans are folded. The folded plans will build and airplane that is too small.
What do you think?
I wouldn't have thought there is any significant difference. I reckon "builder error" (i.e. minor deviations from the actual plan) would make more difference. Apart from this, if you want to be really precise about dimensions, you need a special process called (in England) "true to scale". The normal copying machine usually distorts slightly in one direction, and this is likely to lead to more differences than folding or rolling, especially once you get into copies of copies.
True to scale means that there must be NO DISTORTION whatsoever, and is needed for legal document plans and plans laid before parliament on land matters, where dimensions might be scaled.
Most plan sellers charge extra to send rolled. So far as I can see the only advantage is it will lay flatter on the bench.
If you'r being really accurate, remember even the humidity of the air can make a difference, if it's a paper plan.
Ian R.
Directions:
"Please unfold the plans before building...."
or that can be presumed...
B
I gotta say that you are correct, Gary; but you come up with some of the strangest customers, and customer complaints, that I've ever heard of . . .
Ralph Wenzel
(Too many irons; not enough fire.)
The creases in folded plans can be bothersome. An iron and a good flat surface will take care of the creases. And if anyone can build to the accuracy of whatever distortion a folded plan has, then that person needs to give lessons on how to build accurately.
Unless the plans were advertised and sold as rolled and mailed in a tube, I can see no obligation to send a new set of plans.
Just my thoughts.
Keith
What were the plans to a swiss watch? If it did shrink and I don't think it did, how much could it have shrunk a pencil width? Direct him to me I'll tell him how I build off plans on a napkin.
Gary, my opinion is that you should write a book on all the maladies of EBAY that you have encountered. You could call it "The Trials and Tribulations of Ebay My life as a seller". Bound to hit the #1 list.
Bill Morell
Ontario, California
Better to have it and not need it than it is to need it and not have it.
As noted above, a warm iron to the back of the plan will serve to remove (or at least reduce) the creases. I've built many a Free Flight from folded plans, and each flew like gangbusters.
Gary, unless you advertised that particular plan as "rolled in a tube", you owe that wingnut absolutely nothing.
Digressing from the subject for a moment, there are three members of this forum whose posts I will always read immediately without fail:
1) Howard Rush (brilliant, often thinly-disguised, humor)
2) Bob Whitely, aka alfadawg (tells it like it is)
3) Gary Weaver (pure entertainment value)
Mike Keville
Tucson, AZ
AMA 14220
Mike, I really think you should add Dirty Dan to your "read at once" list. His extremely tactful and modest contributions are ALWAYS worth the read. And, no, Gary, the plans won't get smaller. If they do, we should all sue Model Airplane News for ruining our childhood. Think of all the undersized Noblers that have been built.
Russell Shaffer
Klamath Falls, Oregon
Just north of the California border on Highway 97
Russell,
Dan?
Read at once?
DDan does not write so that - even I, known to use more than a few words now and then - prefer to set Dan's epics aside for some later time when I have more time to appreciate the wit and wisdom...
But, yes, in principle, Dan's comments are both great and entertaining.
Oh, and by the way, MAN is not the only offender for the senior contingent. Hobby Helpers, anyone? Even the FM-(insert number) plans direct from Carstens came folded, not stirred, er, oops that's Bond, James Bond...
\BEST\LOU
To Serge, Geoff and Randy...
Haven't done it yet, but intend to when opportunity arises...
After hearing that there are likely to be differences in X-Axis and Y-Axis 'scaling', the next time I ask the local print shop (there's only one hereabouts) to do an enlarged or reduced print of anything, I'll first offer a carefully measured dummy to be scaled, and measure that.
Then, if they won't calibrate their enlarging/reducing copier to correct any difference found, I'll try somewhere else. (Read a 140 mile round trip, and a day shopping shops in the nearest town with more than one such copy shop.)
We DO build off the plans! We don't have the luxury, RR, of referring to the drawings to find where the dimension called-out is to be measured. We - many of us, anyway - just work with balsa and ply, to 100 grit correction standards. Wax paper or saran over the drawing, and that's where the pieces go...
My dad used to bend and cut aluminum chassis for the large, vacuum-tube radio devices of the 1940's. Aluminum sheet isn't as critical as precisely-cut steel, but his attitude about people who worked with wood was that if a piece didn't fit, hit it again with the hammer. I sympathize, but...
\BEST\LOU
Lou-
I just draw two perpendicular scales on the plans and then take the same measuring device and my pocket calculator to the copier. When the first copy comes out, I measure and divide the desired length by the copy's length and set that as my desired scale. For instance if a 10.0" length comes out 9 7/8" long, then the scale I request is 10/(9.875) = 1.012658... or 101% magnification (my 60" stunter's wing will still be 1/8" short; so I'll use the measurements anyway). They are usually pretty good about re-running it at a corrected scale.
The problem of course is that once in a while the vertical and horizontals differ measurably, and at least with most equipment I've seen, can only be reset (as in 100%, 99%,... etc.) overall, rather than both ways. My old BP company could adjust to the nearest tenth of a percent. That allowed pretty good final results, but they are gone, and the one's I've found can only adjust in 1.0% increments. That leaves measurable error exceeding that due to limits in building skills.
One other thing to watch out for on large plan sheets is that sometimes the paper slips as it goes through the rollers in the scanner, giving skewed and curved lines, where straight is required. Just sight down them to be sure they're straight.
All of these errors - plus climatic changes - though far exceed anything from folding, except that one needs the paper to lie flat.
SK
Serge Krauss
Gary-
Unless an incredibly freaky accident occurs, the copiers at most places will reproduce plans at a much greater distortion and scale error than any folding or rolling could cause. So can a change in weather. Unless you find a place that can magnify to the nearest tenth of a percent, as compared to the usual nearest percent AND you bring your pocket calculator to find a scale factor to correct the likely errors, a typical stunt ship can exceed 1/4" in wingspan error. First try can be over half an inch off, and vertical vs. horizontal scaling is usually distorted. Your customer has his head in a dark moist place and may need a colonoscopy to find his way out.
SK
Serge Krauss
No folded plans do not get smaller, they get larger because the paper has to stretch around the folds. Rolled plans get smaller because the inside surface of the paper gets compressd while the outside gets stretched. So your customer has it just backwards.
>No folded plans do not get smaller, they get larger because
>the paper has to stretch around the folds. Rolled plans get
>smaller because the inside surface of the paper gets compressd
>while the outside gets stretched. So your customer has it just
>backwards.
It is a little bit funny that this nitwit actually believes folded plans get smaller. I could not resist stiring the pot so I told the guy what you said, folded plans actually get larger because they have to stretch around the fold. LOL. Now the nitwit is all confused.
G'day folks
I had size problems at my local print shop a while ago. I wanted plans printed from CAD files and plans copied from other paper copies. Neither came out the right size.
I knew the CAD files were exact—because that's the way I draw things and I could measure the paper copies against the originals.
It seems that the scanner and the printer both need recalibrating from time to time.
Many of our .40 size models have a span without the tips of 48" or very close to. A 1/4" difference in the drawing is only 0.52%. A variation of no consequence to a machine shop or builder working with drawings marked 'Do not scale.' Fortunately for me, the print shop I use has several modellers as customers and understands the issues.
Cheers, Geoff
tell the buyer that a couple of swipes in the appropriate direction with 100 grit will resolve any differences.
That same sandpaper can also be used to scratch his head or any other place deemed necessary.
George
>
>
>If you fold a set of Model Airplane PLANS do the dimensions
>get smaller?
>
>
>
>
>My answer is, NO WAY.
>
>
>
>
>OK, here is the deal. I sold a set of folded Plans and the
>buyer insists that I replace the folded plans with a set of
>rolled plans. He claims the dimensions get smaller when plans
>are folded. The folded plans will build and airplane that is
>too small.
>
>
>
>What do you think?
Even the very best builders will make build with dimensional errors larger then either folded or rolled drawings will cause. Just sanding a dent out of a wingtip will cause more dimensional error that folding or rolling, some times just shaping a tip will also cause a greater error.
If I were you I'd tell him that you would be glad to send rolled drawings if he covers the cost of returning the folded ones (undamaged and unused), the shipping container for the rolled ones and the shipping to resend them. Along with this I would include a note that explains that every single model built from a kit with very few exceptions, were built from folded plans along with those built from purchased plans from MA, American Aircraft Modeler, Flying Models, Model Builder, Model Airplane News Etc, Etc.
Randy Ryan <><
AMA 8500
SAM 36
BO all my own M's
You know guys, this brings up an interesting point. We, as model builders that build directly off prints violate the carinal rule of all machining and fabricating discipline. That is "never scale a drawing or print", work to the dimensions. Of course most of our plans have few dimensions, but it just shows that we crewated in a little world apart from real practice. Actually, I have taken to building off centerlines and at times have to blend bad spots in even the best quality prints, averaging distotional errors to be able to build a straight smooth structure. Gary should send some of the really bad pencil drawings from one vendor we all know and ask him what he thinks of them.
Randy Ryan <><
AMA 8500
SAM 36
BO all my own M's
Having read the posts until now, permit me to quote the obvious.
Why not generally introduce measurements on the plans? I never build on the plan.
A list of main measurements plus a sketch of the plane should suffice. It is not because I am a very accurate or fuzzy builder, but I do draw the wing platforms directly on my building board after checking the wingspan as measured, to the span given in the model's description. In building e.g. sailing dingies it is always impractable to use 1:1 scale plans, you always have to plot the layout on your building loft.
With the drawing of wing ribs with Profili(by Stefano Duranti), one also obtains the exact distances between ribs, which may be easily plotted.
Gerben Wassenaar
This sounds to me to be the most ridiculus compliant I have heard to date,next the person that bought the plans will be wanting you to go to his/her home and build the model for him/her, SHEESH some people really need to get a life.
Hey I just had a thought I have a bunch of folded plans some I bought and some that came with kits anyone want to come to my house and build the models for me. .......... ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Richard
Gary,
I would ask the buyer to return the folded plans as he might have a point, one not considered previously.
Once I had the plans in hand I would run 'em through one of those big copiers at a place like Kinko's, enlarging the plans by 8% or so.
And then I would mail the plans to him.
Dan
DAn,
now that is a wonderful and thoughtful approach to this problem, you are so helpful. I would like to see the look of utter joy on the buyers face as it lights up with happiness from this act of kindness,,
ROFLMAO<, only You Dan, could come up with that idea,, sad to say, I like it,, lol,,
Mark Scarborough
After years of running round in circles at the Rat Race Now I run around in circles for fun, go figure
>DAn,
>now that is a wonderful and thoughtful approach to this
>problem, you are so helpful. I would like to see the look of
>utter joy on the buyers face as it lights up with happiness
>from this act of kindness,,
>
>ROFLMAO<, only You Dan, could come up with that idea,, sad
>to say, I like it,, lol,,
It should not be a mystery, especially to someone as perceptive as you are, as to how I got my nickname...
Dan
I got it wrong. I thought Uncle Mikey wrote...
>As noted above, a warm iron to the back of the head will serve to
>remove (or at least reduce) the concern about creases. I've built
>many a Free Flight from folded plans, and each flew like
>gangbusters.
>Gary, unless you advertised that particular plan as "rolled in a
>tube", you owe that wingnut absolutely nothing.
I always enjoy Uncle Mikey's posts. I'm sorry that
I misread this one. My first interpretation was so
much more satisfying.
p.s. Dirty Dan's posts are on my "read first" list.
Cheers!
Morgan
Would it not be just as much fun to have the plans returned, iron the folds out, roll the plans and ship them back. ;->
Larry Price
Edgewood, WA
AMA 586056
AMA 305089
When did he start sending out printed plans again? The last plans I got were electronic and I was in Florida when a friend of my daughter got them onto a disc. I even offered to pay for the printing and shipping. Never again.
DOC Holliday
