Klass-Kote Service

I have to mention this again because it's so extraordinary. I ordered a complete batch of paint from the good people at Klass-Kote. I placed the website order late Tuesday PDT from Klass-Kote in Minnesota. Of course, it has to be shipped via ground since there was about 2 gallons of highly flammable solvent in the package. I was delivered about Noon on Friday. If you add that all up, it almost had to be at the UPS depot late Tuesday or very early Wednesday. That's what I call immediate service.

BTW, I was also delighted that the "Dark Red" color I got is so close to my favorite red color (Hobbypoxy Maroon) that my color-challenged eyes can't tell the difference. I was worried that I would get stuck with less desirable colors, since the last few NOS cans of Hobbypoxy Maroon had congealed to a pretty red jelly that couldn't be sprayed in a hundred years.

http://www.klasskote.com

Brett

And for people in Canada there is a Canadian dealer now.http://www.klasskote.ca/index.html

Brett,

How's the application of the paint going? I recall some of your preliminary tests had some issues with pinholing in the finish?

Steve

> How's the application of the paint going? I recall some
>of your preliminary tests had some issues with pinholing in
>the finish?

Not with Klasskote. It was with Superpoxy, but it had nothing to do with the paint. It was a function of the variety of graphite I was using.

But, glad you asked, since I just got done putting on my white base coat. And, I just wrote this to someone in a personal message last night:


Coverage was fantastically good, and much better than K&B Superpoxy. It sprayed *pretty* well, but the instructions are way off when it comes to the amount of thinner needed. You need WAY more than they say. They recommend 6:1 mixed paint/thinner, but I would say at least the stuff I had (white) needed about 2:1 or even more to flow out. Ted and I wound up at just a little under 2:1 and we are both sort of kicking ourselves for not adding more. It was OK, but it would have been perfect otherwise. But, it set up reasonably quickly (probably, dust-free in about 2 hours at mid-60's temps, and plenty hard enough to handle and carry around in about 12 hours. At 24 it's glass-hard and sandable. This is in Ted's garage in chilly Foster City, higher temps would accelerate it considerably. Best of all, even though I got very good coverage for white, it only weighed ~2.2 oz for an entire airplane. I thought that was outstandingly good, compared to some of the horror stories you hear. It was certainly much better than the coverage I got from 2.5 oz of Superpoxy on the last airplane. I will end up with about a 8-9 oz finish and (cross my fingers) I have high hopes for the quality.

For reference, the process was:

00 silkspan/nitrate dope (Randolph's), 3-4 heavy coats of 50/50 lightly sanded between coats, attach silkspan with thinner, then 3-4 heavy coats 50/50 nitrate. Randolphs seems to shrink more than you would like, and I ended up putting on one more coat of 50/50 with A LOT of Dave Brown plasticizer on the fuse to remove some of the "starved horse" thing I had going on. The Randolphs seemed to fill much faster and better than SIG nitrate.

Very heavy coat of K&B superpoxy primer, sanded down until it showed about 50/50 bare/primer. The primer weighed something like 7 oz before sanding, and that went down to about 2.75-3 oz after sanding, and I particularly enjoyed gakking up white smelly dust for the next week. Mix was 1:1 with no thinner, and it sprayed plenty well enough for primer. I know you can't get K&B Superpoxy any more, but people I trust say the K&B Ultrapoxy primer is even better. I haven't got any Klass-Kote primer, and I don't know anyone who has tried it. Maybe Al Rabe.

Klass-kote white base coat. Mixed paint 1:1 per directions, including allowing it to pre-react for about 1/2 hour before thinning/spraying. As mentioned, there was NO WAY it was going to spray without a lot of thinner, it was the viscosity of thin latex paint. Ted and I ended up with 8 oz color, 8 oz catalyst, and 7 oz thinner, and it could have been more thinner. It sprayed reasonably well but it didn't flow out perfectly and is a little orange-peely. Nothing I can't fix with a little sanding and a lot of clear, but still, it could have been better. If Ted had been doing the spraying, it probably would have been better, but I am not as slick with the gun as he is. He just points and laughs.

Coverage was excellent and it even looks pretty good just in white, with nothing to distract the eye. Ted and I were both a little concerned over the weight, but if we had know it was only about 2 oz I would have put on a lot more. I didn't use a blocking coat, most because the surface was of a pretty even color to start with. Had I used graphite I would have almost certainly used blocking coat because the contrast between black graphite with splotches of white primer is a real challenge to cover.

The plan is to continue with the trim colors (klasskote), ink/letrasets, then clear (PPG Global System clear). Right now I am at about 4.5-5.0 oz, I figure about 1 oz for the trim, and that will leave me with about 3.5 oz for clear, which is a HUGE amount. I am predicting about 59-60 oz total, which is right at the bottom of the weight range I designed for.

I'm pretty satifsied with the results so far. I think I have only one real hurdle, and that is to make sure the masking tape doesn't pull the paint off. But, since it's basically glue with color in it, I haven't had a lot of problem with that in the past. Sounds like "famous last words" huh?

The link is http://www.klasskote.com . The service is excellent, I ordered on Tuesday and got it on Friday all the way from Minnesota. The only thing wrong with the instructions is the thinner recommendations.

Overall, I am pretty impressed with the paint. It smells like Hobbypoxy, the colors are essentially the same as Hobbypoxy, but it doesn't set up all gummy/rubbery like Hobbypoxy always did when I used it. The few minor issues I had wouldn't have happened if I did this more than once a decade.


Brett

Brett - Maybe a dumb question, but is there a reason you are not using the Klasskote clear for the final gloss?

EricV

>Brett - Maybe a dumb question, but is there a reason you are
>not using the Klasskote clear for the final gloss?

Because my front-row cohorts Uncle Jimby and PTG said to use Global system clear. Who am I to argue with that?

In general, automotive clear is so ridiculously easy to work and comes out so shiny, with that I am not inclined to experiment. In fact, if I could get it, I would still be using DAU 75/DXR80.

Brett

OK, cool, just wondering. I have used the Klasskote clear, thought it was great, goes on very shiney "as shot". It would seem that unless your going for Nats front row and want to knock down the finish to perfectly level, you could just leave it.

As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure how Klasskote would react to typical sanding and buffing other than what the Klasskote rep on the phone told me. To the best of my reccolection it was something like:

"yes, you can sand and buff Klasskote out, but when you build back up the shine, it may not be 100% as shiney as when first shot, but will be more even and professional looking".

Truth be known, I was hoping someone with more front row experience would take a crack at the full tilt boogie Klasskote buffed finish and be the guinea pig for me. Oh well, guess I'll just have to try it on an old doner plane lying around.

Thanks
EricV

>OK, cool, just wondering. I have used the Klasskote clear,
>thought it was great, goes on very shiney "as shot". It
>would seem that unless your going for Nats front row and
>want to knock down the finish to perfectly level, you could
>just leave it.

Oh, I just do everything anyone tells me. Even the things that contradict the other things.

My previous experience with epoxy clear suggests it's a lot more difficult to get a full shine, and, it tends to go yellow over time.

Brett

Ohhhhhh boy, yeah, I've been lead down the "primrose path" before of someone's latest brainstorm. I tread much more cautiously now. My time is too limited to be on the bleeding edge, and prefer to stick with stuff that works. Heck, I didn't even try a pipe motor until 2004! [photo not recovered: shocked.gif]

My oldest Klasskote ship is my 2yr+ Legacy, which has a fair amount of white, and though it was never super stark white to begin with, I don't detect any yellowing yet, key word, YET. My 1yr+ old Cardinal also has a fair amount of white and is also doing well for now.

The final gloss was good enough for someone at my skill level to just say "heck with it, good enough" and neither have been sanded and buffed out.

From your previous experience of it not "getting full shine" and the Klasskote rep essentially saying the same thing to me about buffing, I'm guessing that things haven't changed much.

Still, for a super durable finish without much weight or work, it's hard to beat for us average Joe's.

Have you tested the Auto clear you are planning to use over a test piece of Klasskote to check compatability already?

EricV

>Have you tested the Auto clear you are planning to use over
>a test piece of Klasskote to check compatability already?

No, I'm just going to squirt it on there and hope for the best. It sticks over dope, so epoxy ought to be a cinch.

Brett

ROTFLMAO "Squirt it on there & hope for the best", man your killing me. Either the start of Hurricane season is getting to me, or maybe I'm just plane goofy today.

I guess a Star Trek quote is appropriate here today:

Kirk: A guess? You, Spock? That's extraordinary.
Spock: I don't think he understands.
McCoy: No, Spock. He means that he feels safer about your guesses than most other people's facts.


Anywho, thanks for the chuckle.

EricV

I used to finish all of my R/C pattern planes with K&B Superpoxy and Hobby Poxy. I used a buffing compound called Buff-EEZ made by Martin Senour. Part #6355. This stuff is great for overspray, and rubbing out finishes of epoxy. Does an amazing job over color with no clear over coat. I got mine through NAPA auto parts. They had to order it for me because they don't stock it in the little town I live in. It is the only compound I found that would not dull the finish and leave a brilliant shine.

As a painter full time, I am curious as to why you wouldnt use the PPG basecoat colors as opposed to epoxy? the basecoat colors are much more forgiving to spray, much lighter, and they are garaunteed compatable with the clearcoat.Not to mention that when spraying the colors they are safe to handle in less than an hour when air temp is above 60 and no catalyst to mix. I realize that sometimes its easier, or more comfortable to follow advice of someone you know in these matters, but from my experience, mixing products this way is many times a recipe for problems. best of luck hope this all works out for you well.
Respectfully
Mark Scarborough

>As a painter full time, I am curious as to why you wouldnt
>use the PPG basecoat colors as opposed to epoxy? the
>basecoat colors are much more forgiving to spray, much
>lighter, and they are garaunteed compatable with the
>clearcoat.Not to mention that when spraying the colors they
>are safe to handle in less than an hour when air temp is
>above 60 and no catalyst to mix. I realize that sometimes
>its easier, or more comfortable to follow advice of someone
>you know in these matters, but from my experience, mixing
>products this way is many times a recipe for problems. best
>of luck hope this all works out for you well.

I was being a little more "flip" above than it was in reality. I pretty well knew it was going to work.

Generally I agree about the mixing products theme, but this isn't exactly the first go-round on this particular system.

The simple reason I used epoxy colors and car clear is that my buddies and I have a lot more experience with this sort of system than anything else, and certainly far less problems. Principally, several have had issues putting basecoat/clearcoat systems over dope and/or hobby primers and filler, specifically, adhesion problems. I can remember Ted Fancher calling me up one morning at about 6:30 to see if I had any K&B primer because he had pulled a bunch of paint up on the "Pond Scum" - which was a basecoat/clearcoat system over dope and automotive primer. Peeled off right back to the tissue. If there wasn't a lot of masking involved I might be tempted to try it, but when you shoot one color, mask for a week, shoot another color, mask for a week, then try clear, it pretty much violates the precepts behind the basecoat/clearcoat system.

Epoxy, being glue, sticks to almost anything. It's also a "passive" base - once it hardens, it's pretty much just going to sit there and do nothing afterwards in terms of chemisty and mechanical properties. Locally we have done at least 6-7 airplanes with epoxy colors and car clear with excellent success over the past 15 years or so. And *a lot* of epoxy color/epoxy clear jobs. It's durable - Ted's cream/maroon airplane is still in pretty good shape after 15 years.

I would also be very dubious that basecoat is lighter than epoxy. None of the locals who have tried it came up with very light paint jobs. It does cover very well, but the reason is the exceedingly high pigment fraction (compared to dope). Epoxy, particularly Klasskote, is similar. But the pigment is what weighs something, and X amount of pigment is required. I don't think there's any chance that you are going to beat 5.5 oz from primer to clear by very much with any system at the kind of quality you get with this system. Particularly with light base colors, like white. Certainly quality dope finished are usually quite a bit more than that - 8 oz is a number I hear thrown around a lot, and you gotta figure in the "brag factor". A *lot* lighter is almost impossible, since this particular job only weighed 6 oz or so. Even it was half, that's only 3 oz which is just in the noise for these types of airplanes.

Bottom line is, I was comfortable with the materials involved, we all had some (good) experiences with very similar products. I knew I had exactly 0 extra time to fix anything that went wrong, but I was very confident that it would work.I sprayed the primer on June the 11 and flew the airplane for the first time on July 1st- and it sat ready-to-go for most of the previous week. 2 1/2 weeks of evenings to get a 6-ish oz, 17-point finish, with essentially no problems, is something I will take every time.

Brett

I will not question what works, especially since you have in fact much more hands on in this particular aspect of interproduct relations,I dont have the stats in front of me for the solids content they are at the shop right now and I am not. Basecoats are very low in solids actually, they are the highest VOC contributor to paint systems.(ie low solids = high VOC and High solids = low VOC) More power to you if it works.I understand the logic behind the time factor. I used to be very concerned about that with basecoat till I spoke with the technical dept of PPG and they allowed that there is really no time limit on recoating base but it is a bit more fragile just sitting there with no clear.I usually put one layer of DBC 500 over my colors before next mask goes on, thats a basecoat clear not catalysed.

Just for reference, ( I am not arguiing just giving reference here) I shot my twister, Ok actually I monokoted the wings, I am cheating , still learning the beginer pattern. I silkspaned the fuse two coats of butyrate over that, then a light coat of black dp40 (epoxy sealer) then one coat of K 36 catalyzed primer, the next day I sanded all but the neccesary primer off, till I could see the black as it were, let it sit overnight because I wanted to go home at that point not cause I had to. the next day I started shooting color at 5 pm as soon as I was done with "work", I masked, and shot 5 colors, and clear start to finish in 5 hours, which included going home for an hour to eat dinner after the pearl intercoat went on before masking, In other words I was home, guns cleaned at a little after ten. It works for me, but obviously what you do works for you and if it works dont change just cause some body says you should,,,, Heck I probably shouldnt even be sticking my nose in on this topic, I just see so many headaches caused by mixed products It scares me to see people experiment, I misread your post apparantly and got the impression you were experimenting on the airplane.
I saw many beautifull planes in Eugene, first time at a contest, I watched didnt fly, actually just started flying again about 2 weeks after going to regionals.Hopefully first contest will be in Mcminnville in Aug,, Maybe some day,, sigh, and many gallons of fuel,,,

anyway, so you can see, I will attach a pict of the twisted sister and its stable mate, my Oriental , the oriental took about the same time to paint, but it was brought from wood to ready to paint with Dope then base clear over that, no adhesion problems but the dope is sensitive to the solvents in the clear,, it shrunk out after the clear dried and will need a light polish, the twister is just like it came out of the gun, still after several days in pasco in the 100 plus sunshine,, love that catalysed clear,
The twister, from bare wood through clear added about 1.5 ounces, (just painted the fuse though and I was intentionally heavy with the clear, two coats very wet,,)
the oriental, not real sure forgot to weigh it first before I started doping, but the color and clear added just a couple ounces,,
Please take my comments in the spirit they were intended, respectfully, and merely as information, not as a know it all, cause I sure dont,,,,
Mark Scarborough
edited so it would make sense,, pardon my spelling Im a painter not an english teacher,,

Mcminnville here I come,,

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